More Trigger Questions

[vlus]

Hello. I am also considering trying triggers on my kit. I'm thinking it will be easier to set up and maintain rather than all those open mics, noise gates, EQ's etc. I previously ran 3 separate EQs for snare, kick, and toms. Everything gated and to a pre-mixer, then to main board.

Since I don't know anything about triggers yet, I am assuming I will no longer need to EQ or gate everything because I would be dealing with a digital sound, right?

Or is their a way to EQ the kick sound to get that nice punchy click? Same with snare, does the module have an EQ for each channel or trigger?

Also, I understand there is a controller that all these triggers plug into. Does that stay up at the kit or down at the main board? Is there just a single cable that runs from the controller to the board? If just a single output to the main board, how does the sound guy pump up the kick if needed, or does each setting have to be done on the module for each trigger?

Also, I saw someone mention they trigger on and off for certain songs... I was wondering about that... how is that achieved? By the drummer or sound man? Also, can I assume that means they must have their snare mic'd as well?

Also, can I set different samples for the same trigger and just switch them as needed per the song? Say, for example.... my regular snare sound, a fat long sustain snare, and a marching tight snare. Can I actually program a variety of different trigger setups and press a button for the correct setup for each song?

I saw tuning mentioned, however, I am confused... since the stage sound is much lower than the front sound, how would the acoustic drums ever be heard over the sampled sound of the triggers.

I see a lot about solder connections failing... is that because the ddrum triggers are inherently bad, or is it because they are the cheaper ones without the protective cover getting hit with sticks?

Back to the module, what about effects like reverb, flange or delay/echo... does each channel of the module have these FX? If not how would I apply them to certain channels, when needed?

Guess thats it thanks in advance for any light shed!!!!

PS... anyone in NEPA (Hazleton, Bloomsburg, Wilks-Barre Area) have a kit set up with triggers that wouldn't mind a visit, email me!

Thanks!
Vic
http://www.heavensonfire.com

[Craven Sound]

Redawg will really be able to help you with this one! He plays for Retroactive, so if they are in the area, be sure to check them out. But here's what I know. The trigger only acts as closure (just completes the circuit). I used to use an Alesis DM5 trigger module, that sat near the kit. It had a stereo and a mono output that you can plug into a DI for the sound system. You can get some cheap triggers, don't get expensive ones. I think Radio Shack even has something that would work, and I've seen a web site that shows you how to build your own. Try a google search, you may find it.

Mike

[lonewolf]

The answers to your questions depend on what you have and how much control you want to have. Normally, the trigger controller will be right next to the drums so the trigger wire runs are short. If you have an Alesis DM5 or similar trigger controller, the sounds are built-in and you will need to direct box the outputs to the board. There are 4 outputs on the DM5, so you could run up to 4 individual drum sounds to the board. I think their intent was to run bass and snare separately and the rest in a stereo mix.

If you have a separate midi trigger controller and sound module, you may want to consider keeping the trigger controller on stage and sending the midi signal to the sound module at the console. You can do this thru a snake channel with adapters and if the output signal is high enough.

As far as gating, it depends on the sound module as well. Most drum boxes have gated drums out the wazoo and you shouldn't have any trouble finding a patch that fits your taste. Since its just playing back a recorded sample of a gated drum, you won't need much more than compressor/limiter and EQ processing at the board. Reverb can go either way, since most drum modules have FX like reverb, chorus, delay and sometimes more. It depends on the box, the reverb, and the sound engineer.

[redawg]

I have a Roland TD-8 V-drum brain. I don't have any expierence with any other modules. I have the cheaper DDRUM triggers on all 5 of my drum shells. I have an 8 channel 1000 watt powered Carvin p.a. head with 4 speakers (2 on each side pointed at me). I have 3 Roland PD-7 pads on my left and 2 PD-9's on my right. I also have a Roland FD-7 foot trigger pedal that I use for hand claps and a tamborine. I keep the module and the p.a. head on stage right beside me. I run my own monitor mix. My keyboard player sends me a mixed signal of his keys and his guitar. I get a guitar line from my brother too. There are 4 outputs on my module but I only use 2 of them. Everything all mono. I simply send one line to me and one line to the snake with no direct box necessary. I do use a quarter inch to XLR adapter to plug into the snake. I've seen other drummers use other modules and I think mine is easier. Both the Roland TD-8 and the TD-10 modules have quick volume sliders on them (very helpful as opposed to scrolling through menus to find the volume for a trigger). You could muffle your drum heads and just use trigger sounds (that way you wouldn't need mics, eq's or gates). I didn't want to go that route for a variety of reasons. I don't muffle my drums at all (besides my kick). I have my kit fully mic'd up as if the triggers weren't even there. Our sound guy prolly has morbid fantasies of torturing me with a blowtorch and a pair of pliars LOL We even make him use cymbal mics. At sound check, he checks the kit without the triggers first. I don't use the effects in my module. Our soundman has all the effects in his rack. After he gets an acoustic drum sound he asks to hear my pads (cowbells, hand claps, reverse gated sounds, pre programmed loops, gongs and more). My module has 1300 sounds in it that I can assign to any pad or drum. I only trigger my snare for 2 songs so I just leave the volume slider down till I need it. I barely use my tom triggers in the first set. I use 2 kick drum sounds all night (kick trigger on all night). It is the most awsome sound on stage having my kick drum amplified by 1000 watts blasting in my face. I use 3 different tom sounds all night. I put myself through hell using these things. Since I don't muffle my toms, I have to tune them well and I have to tune the triggered sounds to match the acoustic sounds or they will not sound right. Sorry if this all sounds fragmented. I'm trying to keep this as short as possible. I'm still experimenting and learning and I encourage you to do the same. I don't know if I'm doing this the best way or the right way. It's working for me though. Hope it helped you out. To answer your trigger on and off questions, I either use the quick volume sliders on my module or use one of the 10 pre set configurations I made up. Most modules have user presets. The things you can do are endless.

[vlus]

First of all, thank you very much for your detailed reply. I don't have any triggers or module yet, so I am trying to do as much research in advance as possible so I invest in the right module from the get go.

My plan is to not muffle the drums but not mic them either, except hi-hat and overhead cymbal mics. I have 11 toms that I want to trigger, plus roto's, snare and kick.

One of the features I wanted to make sure was integrated into whatever module I get, is a full effects set (flange, delay, reverb, etc.) However, the only unit I have seen online that specifically says those are included, is the Roland T10 (i think thats what it was) but it is now discontinued for some reason. None of the other manufactures specify what effects are available within the module.

Another bit of confusion I have is related to the toms. As I mentioned, I have a fairly large kit with 11 toms, but on the few websites that talk about what sounds come with their modules, it usually just seems to list 3 or 4 toms in fairly generic terms. I don't want to (and don't have the ability to) sample all my drums to add into the module. I was rather, hoping to get that perfect sounding electronic sample for each and every tom. Am I missing something? Do these modules come with only 3 or 4 toms, or can I find a tom sound for each of my drums within the module package?

Assuming most of these modules allow me to set up custom kits, presumably with custom effects, how easy is it to switch between kits? Is it a push of a button, or do I have to go through menu's and fumble with it? For example, I might set up a kit with heavy reverb or sustain on the snare and toms for a certain song, but want a drier sounding kit for other tunes. I would want to be able to switch fairly quickly and easily.

I love your idea of running your own private monitor system... Very Cool idea which I will try, rather than relying on attempts to angle amps at me, etc.!

Are you the author of DTB???? If so... big kudos, man, big kudos! I've been playing 25 years, and I re-read your site a couple times a year just to keep it fresh in my aging mind!

Vlus

[vlus]

Thanks also to you for your reply. You mentioned that most controllers have a full effects set, yet I have not been able to find any detail on the web to indicate that. The only controller that specifically said it had all that was the Roland T10 (i think thats what it was called). But it is discontinued. None of the other manufactures goes into any detail regarding FX.

Along the same lines... The ddrum4 module, according to the pictures in their online users manual, has only 3 or 4 channels specifically labelled for toms (the other channels are all labeled otherwise) does each channel actually "work differently" ... suppose I needed all the channels for toms... would it not work?

thanks in advance!

Vlus

[vlus]

my bad... the discontinued model i have mentioned was Alesis DM Pro... now I have to go back thru my notes to figure out which one was the one with all the FX.... arggggg!

[redawg]

My TD-8 module has built in reverbs and EQ only. Actually, I should say built in rooms because in the ambience section of my module I have choices of what kind of room I want my drums to be in like a cave, an auditorium, the beach, a garage. All the rooms are fully tweakable like size of the room or what the walls are made of (glass, wood, plaster). If I wanted flange, chorus or delay, I would either use the built in effects in my Carvin p.a. head or buy another FX processor. I personally would never use another module other than a Roland TD-8 or TD-10 (you had me worried with that discontinued remark for a day or two). Like I said, there are quick sliders on both of those modules for INSTANT volume control. The sliders are divided into groups for toms, kick, snare, cymbals and aux channels. You will most likely have to buy two modules to use all the triggers you want. 11 toms, 3 rotos, 1 snare and a kick? Yup, you need 2 modules. My roland module has a total of 12 trigger inputs on it. I could buy an add on thing they have that would allow me 6 more trigger inputs. Would that be enough for you? My module has 1300 sounds. I have 2 different tom groups, regular tom sounds with limited editing and the V-toms that let you really tweak them (different drum heads, muffeling material, quick or deep size shell). I have at least 100 basic tom sounds to start with, maybe more, I haven't counted them all. You really should check into one of the Roland V-drum modules. I would never use anything other than my TD-8 or TD-10. Changing presets is a breeze. I either simply hit a button or assign a PAD CHANGE to one of my other triggers to change kits. I have 64 presets to make kits up on my module. No I am not the author of DTB (what is that anyway?). I just love to play man. I make my living at it. I have spent countless hours on research and tweaking my electronics. Hope I saved you some time. You should make a trip out to see my band play sometime, I'll give you the full tour of my kit. In the general topics section of this forum, read the topic "To a Sucessful Drum Night" there are pix of my kit on that page. I took it to drum night for a demonstration. One more thing, yes you can have different effects on different presets. You can have one kit dry and another with effects. You can have wet and dry sounds within a preset.

[vlus]

REdawg... sorry for delayed response... my computer died, so I am logging on from the wifes system. Between your posts and additional research i am really excited about the prospects of integrating a drum module into my acoustic kit. I am 99% leaning toward the TD10, but I am going to wait a month, as I found out Yamaha is supposed to be premiering a new module that is pretty cool also.

I would be thrilled to get a guided tour of your setup. I am in the Hazleton area and would drive up to say an hour or so in any direction. Do you have any gigs that fall in that region?

Drop me an e at vick@heavensonfire.com

Thanks again!

Vick

[redawg]

I was scrolling down this page and saw a couple of other questions I didn't get to. My TD-8 module only has 4 inputs for toms but that doesn't really matter. I have inputs for 2 crashes, a ride, a snare, a kick, an aux channel and a hi hat channel. Those apply to the quick sliders on the front of the module. You can plug a pad into the crash channel and still assign one of 1300 sounds to it. When you turn up the cymbal channel on the front, it will bring what ever sound you have assigned to that pad up. What do you use flange, chorus or delay for? Does it fatten up your toms? Don't worry about having 11 toms. You can tune every one of them to any pitch you want. I'm trying a new experiment this week. I'm putting 2 triggers on my snare. Talk about layering sounds The things I will be able to do with my snare sound are endless. My band plays in Somerset, Johnstown and Ebensburg only. We can only play 4 shows per month due to the 5 of us having other obligations. Hope to see you at one of our shows.

[vlus]

Hey Redawg, yeah, chorus and delays to fatten up toms, chorus and reverb for fat sustained snare. i will check the map to figure out how close any of those gigs are to me and maybe catch your show. i haven't heard of any of those towns so I'm thinking it may be too far. Is there any way to add more trigger inputs to the TD10? The new Yamaha module supposedly has 16 trigger inputs! I don't have much more info on it yet to compare. But I'm going one way or the other soon!

[redawg]

Roland does have a new toy out to help you add more trigger inputs to any of their modules with midi ins and outs. You just connect a midi cable and BAM, you have 6 more trigger inputs. It's called the Roland TMC-6 Trigger MIDI converter. It's gonna cost you around $250. You might find it a little cheaper if you check a few places. I got that quote from Interstate Music's mail order catalog. Very neat little toy. It works with acoustic drum triggers as well as any of their pads or cymbal pads. It works with their hi hat controller too. Talk to you soon.

[redawg]

Oh yeah! Roland just released the TD-20. I don't know how much it costs but I know it is the BOMB.

[redawg]

I bumped this thread up for you to check out rriehart.

[Jones]

Is the major difference between the TD 6 and TD 8 the amount of inputs? Does the TD 8 have sequencing capability?

[redawg]

I have never checked out the TD-6. My TD-8 does have a really cool sequencer . You could prolly use that new MIDI toy they came out with on the TD-6. You plug into the MIDI port and you have 6 more pad inputs. I think they are around $250. I talked about it earlier in this thread or the other trigger thread if you want to locate the model # of it. TD-8's are getting cheaper now and I think the TD-10's are too. You'd be better off to try to get a TD-8 or better. I love my TD-8 but it does leave a little to be desired. I was listening to some old recordings of me from when I plugged my kit directly into my stand alone Denon duel deck CD burner. You can definately tell that the drums are electric by the way the hi-hats and some snare hits sound. If you played a certain way it was really hard to tell if the drums were real or not. I love that CD burner. XLR and RCA inputs, dead quiet recording and the thing is REALLY hard to clip. Don't get me wrong, the kit sounded beyond awsome as far as the tones and levels. The TD-10 and TD-20 have more dynamics and positional sensoring in their mesh pads. It's way harder to tell them from real drums on a recording. I used to record Retroactive's shows direct to CD off the board when I used my TD-8 V-drums with the band. I could just tell that they weren't real drums. Snare flams, ghost notes, cymbal crashes and the hi hats aren't quite there, almost though. Ima hopefully get rid of my TD-8 and get a 10 or 20 some day.

[Jones]

What can ya tell me about sending a file from computer to the roland unit? Is it do-able?......went with the TD 6 by the way....couldn't justify the money difference, especially with the new expansion thingamajig you mentioned.

[redawg]

I never even looked to see if I could ever send a file from a computer to a TD-8. I know that you can do that with some of Roland's products. I'm pretty sure my TD-8 doesn't do that. I could trigger sounds off other MIDI gear but I don't think I could store any of those sounds on the unit. One thing I always wanted to try when I was with Retroactive was to hook my TD-8 up to the Castle's light board (via MIDI cable) and trigger some of my light scenes with my drums. I know I could have made that shit work PHAT. Imagine assigning the pin spots to my kick drum at the beginning of the song "Sunglasses At Night". I have endless ideas for this that I want to try. I definately will try it someday.