Is Rock n Roll Dead?

[MeYatch]

I searched my sole, all I found was dirt.

If all the bands with artistic integrity would quit, then the rest of us wouldn't have to work so hard to get PAID.

[Dark Soul]

If all the bands with artistic integrity would quit, then the rest of us wouldn't have to work so hard to get PAID.

Not sure I understand what you're trying to say here. It sounds like you're saying that musicians with artistic integrity who gig out make it harder for those without it to get paid and I don't see how that could possibly be the case. Elaborate?

[MeYatch]

Bands that don't play songs people want to hear drive down the overall value of live music to bar owners.

Mostly I just wanted to be an ass and post a picture of my shoe.

[MeYatch]

If bands playing songs people wanted to hear was the norm and not a rarity, bands that do play songs people wanted to hear would not have to work as hard to prove they didn't play the same classic rock songs every other band plays. Additionally if live bands playing songs people want to hear was the norm, more people might be out seeing live bands, instead of associating them with mediocre musicians pounding out songs only they like.

Rock and roll and the apparent ease of rock stardom is partially responsible for an over abundance of musicians and bands, driving down prices.

Bands that feel like they need to educate the audience on what they should be liking is a pet peeve of mine.

Musicians have become the primary consumers of their own product , which is not a sustainable business model.

[Dragan Kalasa]

Good time as any to troll.

So...is someone looking for a metalcore/death metal vocalist here? I'm not sure what kind of wanted ad this is.

[Jasaoke]

Rock and roll and the apparent ease of rock stardom is partially responsible for an over abundance of musicians and bands, driving down prices.

Bands that feel like they need to educate the audience on what they should be liking is a pet peeve of mine.

Musicians have become the primary consumers of their own product , which is not a sustainable business model.

Well said.

The point that I was trying to make is that many musicians, myself included, have difficulty putting aside their hang-ups (personal, professional, artistic) and that destroys any sense of community or openness that fosters a healthy 'scene'. As VENTgtr pointed out

I think Jasaoke's point was the "RP community", for lack of a better word, rather than having discussions, or even debates, gets derailed, so the interest in continuing a conversation goes from "Let's talk" to "Oh, for crying out loud...".

,
and that type of thing is evident in many bands' live performances, which is very off-putting to anyone who may be marginally interested in live music. Imagine that you're 21 years old, and you start going out to bars and want to see a band. Let's say that you go and see 5 bands. 2 of them play music that went out of style before you were born, 2 of them play music from bands you've never heard of, and one of them plays all originals. That won't exactly get you itching for more.

[MistValkyrie]

Bands that don't play songs people want to hear drive down the overall value of live music to bar owners.

Mostly I just wanted to be an ass and post a picture of my shoe.

HEY! I'm supposed to be the one posting random shit on this thread!

Speaking of, here's an owl in a hat...everyone's arguments are now invalidated!!!!

[Dark Soul]

If bands playing songs people wanted to hear was the norm and not a rarity, bands that do play songs people wanted to hear would not have to work as hard to prove they didn't play the same classic rock songs every other band plays.

I was under the impression that bar owners generally don't book bands that can't draw a crowd. If these bands are playing music nobody wants to hear, how are they still getting shows?

Bands that feel like they need to educate the audience on what they should be liking is a pet peeve of mine.

Again, this doesn't make sense to me. If nobody likes what they're playing then there won't be much of an audience and the bar won't book them anymore. If they're drawing a crowd then obviously there are some people who like what they play. Maybe there's some element of this that I'm overlooking but I thought this was generally the way things worked.

And how do you know they're trying to "educate the audience"? It seems unfair to assume that a band that plays unusual or unpopular music is proceeding from a position of arrogance. There's nothing wrong with playing what you personally like even if it means your audience might be smaller. It's all a matter of what's important to you.

[MeYatch]

Yeah, that is how it works, but I keep hearing stories about how 30 years ago any Joe who could put a band together could make $100 a man playing bars. Maybe if bands hadn't collectively decided that the music they were playing then was the pinnacle of music we wouldn't have all these threads talking about what is wrong with the scene.

Rock and Roll is not dead, its just sitting in a nursing home and nobody wants to put up with its terrible old person smell to visit it.

[Dark Soul]

I think it's a simple case of supply and demand. Yea, there was a time when a decent rock band could get gigs and make some decent money for the effort, but it isn't like that anymore. Maybe bands aren't as interesting anymore, or people can't afford to go out as much these days, or maybe the bar-going crowd doesn't care so much about rock anymore, or a combination of factors. Whatever the reason, if people wanted to spend the money to go see live bands around here, they would. Since they aren't, that tells me people just don't care to see that kind of thing much anymore. If you look at the top selling albums on the US charts these days, there's hardly any rock or metal at all.

[MeYatch]

I thought that's what we were talking about, people don't want to hear rock or metal.

[VENTGtr]

I think it's a simple case of supply and demand. Yea, there was a time when a decent rock band could get gigs and make some decent money for the effort, but it isn't like that anymore. Maybe bands aren't as interesting anymore, or people can't afford to go out as much these days, or maybe the bar-going crowd doesn't care so much about rock anymore, or a combination of factors. Whatever the reason, if people wanted to spend the money to go see live bands around here, they would. Since they aren't, that tells me people just don't care to see that kind of thing much anymore. If you look at the top selling albums on the US charts these days, there's hardly any rock or metal at all.

The last sentence kind of sums it up, to a degree, and was part of my original point. WE make a decision. We can either play stuff that we like, even though it may go against what is currently the product people want to see/hear, and WE decide to live by that and take our chances on getting an audience, or following, doing that. OR, we evolve and play something that's more likely to get a crowd.

We've ALL played stuff that we don't like, whether it's one song in a night, or just join something playing material we're not huge on that may draw, or doing fill in work. To what degree we're okay with that is up to each of us. AND, we can also end up liking songs we didn't think we normally would. There have been songs/bands that I don't like, but ended up playing something that, even if I wouldn't listen to, is actually FUN to play.

Regardless of our approach, it's each of our's.

When this kind of thing comes up, I think of someone like Will Lee, from Letterman's band, who is a top session guy. He's done who knows how many jingles. I seriously doubt he LIKES any of them. I also doubt he cares anyone's thoughts on his singing the Pringles theme or touring with Bette Midler.

He can make that disconnect.

And remember that people aren't going out to make sure were happy or to fill our need to play stuff we like even though they don't know or care about. They want to be entertained and are paying their money to do it. Fulfilling that is our job, regardless of how we get to that end.

Jasaoke's point is that what most of us may like to play just isn't the top draw any more. We make the choice of whether to go against that, or to be a bit flexible and adapt. To be inflexible on it isn't doing any favours for live music, certainly not in this region. I'm not necessarily saying I would go out and play just stuff I hate either. I'd probably keep fighting uphill as well, and have in the past, to a degree. But, nowadays, I actually DO like the majority of things we play (Even though I never thought I would/could) and just wish we could keep a lineup together.

I think that's part of Dark Soul's frustration, and I'm right there with you. The pool isn't as big as it used to. I know the majority of guys my age aren't playing out anymore. Whether because they have families, just don't want to deal with the stuff that goes along with it, etc., etc. (I understand they're point....I'm just stubborn, stupid, and can't stop).

BUT, these are all things we can choose to handle however we want/need to if we want to keep playing out. The alternative of just saying "BACK IN MY DAY..." isn't going to do much.

Mitch's point is that there are bands who may play stuff they like, but the general public just isn't going stay to hear, and it often works as an indictment (For lack of a better term) of what "bands do". I've had this conversation in my side thing. I like the stuff we play and it fills that want, but I've made it well known to the other guys, don't expect it to be a huge draw, regardless of what they may think. We can gripe all we want that 23 year old women don't want to hear, say, Thin Lizzy, but it's not going to change that fact.

STILL, I'll give more kudos to a band that "sticks to their guns" than one who plays for free beer and takes full advantage of that payout. I think that's been a bigger cause than many other factors.

Play what you want, do it well, work hard, and all the best in what you decide to play.

[bassist_25]

I was going to write a long reply to this thread (and I'm still kind of scratching my head a bit on why this thread is in this sub-forum unless the OP is trying to make a deeper statement), but as usual, Jasoake pretty much summarized what I was thinking in a much more concise format. It is presumptuous to automatically assume a priori that musicians playing music that diverges from a safe spot are there to educate the audience or are performing from a position of arrogance; however, my experience is that many musicians are doing just that - a cursory reading of Rockpage reveals that some of the people here have quite the disdain for the general public.

I won't take anything away from anyone who wants to do what they want to do and follow their muse. I'm glad there are artists out there who take risks, because I like that stuff as much as I like the made-for-radio stuff. However, when you decide to do something that's outside of the mainstream, you have to accept that you're going to be limiting your audience. Some musicians just seem too dense or self-important to accept that. Of course, some do get it. Before Songsmith found success in Mama Corn, he had a bluegrass-inspired Americana band called 00 Buck. I went to see them at Victory Lane and they got shut down early because the crowd wasn't diggin' them. I was more upset about it than Johnny. He didn't stomp his feet and decry how the audience wasn't cultured and sophisticated enough to understand his brilliant art; he just shrugged his shoulders and said, "We're doing something different and not everyone is gonna like it." The Straw brothers are another example of people who understand this. Throughout their careers, they've played music that falls very much out of the mainstream - and play and write it well, I may add - but they don't walk around with chips on their shoulders about it. You'd never hear them denigrate another band just because that band plays more commercial music or slag the public for not getting or understanding their music.

The whole critique of hegemony dumbing down the art world and the public not being intellectually and culturally sophisticated enough to appreciate complex art is neither original nor thought-provoking. Adorno and Horkheimer already wrote about it over a half of a century ago, and, frankly, their analysis was much more articulate and perceptive than that of the average musician bitchin' that somehow the existence of Lil' Wayne and Nicki Minaj is ruining music. I've always regarded artistic martyrdom as nothing but pretentious bullshit. And keep in mind, the big band swing cats were having the exact same conversation we are having today when Rock Around the Clock hit the radio waves; only they were lamenting how their favored style of music was losing relevance due to rock 'n roll.

I have spent the past FIVE YEARS trying to get a band going and it's just impossible. 90% of the time, when I contact a musician, we email each other once or twice and as soon as I want to actually get together and play, they disappear and I never hear from them again.

I don't intend any disrespect when I ask this, but when you were attempting to start a band, what were you exactly offering potential players? I've heard the stuff you did with Keith, and you obviously have the chops, but what value would a potential player have gotten from a start-up that existed entirely in the abstract at that point in time? The professionally-minded players (i.e., the non-flakes) aren't going to be gung-ho to commit to a project that is at that stage of infancy, even with the prospect being to play good music. Before anyone says it, I know: All bands are start-ups at one point. However, in my experience, it is very rare that a successful band is started completely from scratch with strangers or at the very least, it takes a long-time (IIRC, Rain Must Fall was put together from scratch, and it was a couple of years before that project took the stage). If I were looking to start a new band, the first thing I'd do wouldn't be to throw up an ad looking to start a band. I would contact all of the players I've previously performed with or friends I know who I have chemistry with and have proven track records. Then, if they were into it, I'd scout for any missing pieces. It'd go a lot further than the ads you see in PA Musician that say, "Band looking for singer, guitarist, bassist, drummer, keyboardist, tambourine player, and didgeridoo." Any muso who's been around the block knows that the chances of that getting off the ground is next to nil.

I know a lot of players who have this unrealistic vision in their heads of what a band should be (not saying that's you), and most of them rarely play, because they quickly quit bands or they've fired everyone who didn't live up to their unrealistic expectations. One thing I've learned from playing is that there is no such thing as the perfect band.

[VENTGtr]

Just wanted to thank Dave (VENTGtr) for the kind words about my band Hate Grenade.

Not at all, man. Really like the stuff. Am trying to move some things to make it out Friday. For anyone who is free, head to The Arena next Friday to see these guys.

[Dark Soul]

I would contact all of the players I've previously performed with or friends I know...

That's pretty much what I did, and I came up empty. So beyond that, the only options I see are to start a band from scratch or hope some guitar player in a working band quits. As far as what I can offer people, I'm not sure what you mean. Beyond myself, I don't have anything to offer except maybe practice space if needed. None of the ads I've ever read from people looking for guitar players ever seemed interested in anything besides the usual...be professional, no drugs, be willing to practice a lot, etc. etc.

But maybe it is me. Maybe I'm just not the kind of player people want around here. I thought being a skilled and reliable player with good gear would be enough, but apparently not. And, to be honest, that's just fine with me. When I've joined bands in the past I rarely got to play music I actually liked and didn't make much money anyway, and these days things are even worse. So I don't see the point. Just not worth the effort.

And here's the funny part. A short time after I came to this conclusion and decided to just forget joining a band altogether, I got a call from a musician friend of mine saying he had a band and they needed a guitar player. lol! I politely turned him down. I'd rather do my own thing. I get to play what I want and, so far, the money's about the same!

[bassist_25]

As far as what I can offer people, I'm not sure what you mean.

What I meant was that when you were attempting to start a band, what was attractive to the potential players whom you were hoping to recruit? IME, the players who have the chops and professional attitude to do the thing that you want to do are going to want to see a project, in lieu of working at the time of recruitment, that at least has a lot of promise. Every decision carries with it an opportunity cost, even if that cost is just time. Trying to get a project rolling when you don't have anyone else recruited is a tough sell; hence, why it has been my experience that start-ups that usually succeed are the ones that are already pretty much put together prior to searching for the proverbial missing piece. Speaking personally, whenever I've looked for a new project, I always politely decline the responses from people who don't have anything put together as of yet. It's nothing personal.

[Jasaoke]

Paul, I think you would seriously dig kBand.

We seem simpatico.

[Dark Soul]

Well, aside from offering a skilled and reliable guitarist with good gear willing to practice and play out as often as the band cares to in the form of myself, and maybe a practice space if we couldn't find anywhere else, I don't know what else I could offer. I could probably find a sound man if needed. That's about it. What would you offer people beyond that, aside from PA equipment if you've got the money for it? (I don't.)

And of course it's easier to ask people you already know to play in your band. Why would I bother going online to recruit a drummer, for example, if I know someone who can do the job already? Recruiting strangers is a pain in the ass. Believe me, if I had enough musician friends who were available and reliable to put a complete or near complete band together I'd have done so. Once that option is exhausted, what other choice is there but to post ads and hope someone responds?

[StumbleFingers]

Well, aside from offering a skilled and reliable guitarist with good gear willing to practice and play out as often as the band cares to in the form of myself, and maybe a practice space if we couldn't find anywhere else, I don't know what else I could offer.

A reputation maybe? The best way to get in a solid band is to have a solid track record. Even if someone doesn't know you personally they may be familiar with previous bands you've been in. It's a résumé. What have you done and for how long?

Great bands are usually built from the remnants of lesser bands. As much as it sucks to go out there and play with a subpar band for no money in shitty venues, someone somewhere will be thinking, "that band wasn't that great but the guitar player really had it together". It's a stepping stone to better things.

And let's face it, most of the problems we deal with in bands are First World problems. If the worst thing that happens to you all week is having to play "Crazy Bitch" to make some drunken college girls happy, you've got a pretty easy life.

Insert all the usual clichés about paying your dues, you've got to be in it to win it, and so on. But the fact is that most of the best gigs will never hit the wanted ads because they already have a short list of established players in mind for the opening.

[Dark Soul]

True, but I haven't been in the scene for a long time so I don't really have a reputation. Not much I can do about that.

[ToonaRockGuy]

Getting a band together from scratch without a track record is like trying to be 19 and getting a credit card. Nobody will give you credit because you have no established credit. It's a vicious circle that is amazingly frustrating and gives you grey hair at 23. There is no magic wand or spell or incantation that makes things better.

But with all the other suggestions that have been posted, I would make a few myself.

-Networking. Go to shows. Introduce yourself to the bands. Be professional about it, don't be THAT GUY who stumbles up absolutely hammered and talks about how great you are. Be humble. Be nice. You may get asked to sit in. If you do, don't change anything about the rig you are sitting in on, just go with it. Be courteous and thank the band if they ask you to sit in. Do one song and get offstage, unless they ask you to do another. After the show, thank the band for a great show, even if you didn't sit in.

The more memorable and professional you make yourself, the more you will get the chance to make your bones in the area. I had to break into the scene 20 years ago, coming to PA from SC. I knew absolutely nobody, but started going to see bands from the start and became a regular on the scene, going to see The Hurricanes, Inside Out, Badwrench, Korruption, Whiskey High, etc. Then one night Felix and John McKnight asked me to sit in with the Hurricanes. Game, set, match. I've been fortunate enough to maintain steady musical employment since that moment and be a part of some amazing bands over the last two decades. (God, I'm gettin' old.)

Also, don't be afraid to hire yourself out as a fill-in. I did that for a while and got to play with some really cool cats that I never would have gotten to play with otherwise, and that led to some great opportunities.

-Be open-minded as a fill-in. Yeah, I never want to play "Insert Name Of Song Here" again, but if a band hires me to do it, damn skippy I'm gonna play the shit out of that song. If it's a cover band situation and it puts asses on the dance floor, then I'll play "Crazy Bitch" every damn set (And I have).

-Know your shit. If someone hires you for a one-off, get a setlist, recordings, and rehearse your ass off and know your shit cold. You only get one shot to do it live, and if you screw it up, the band might not hire you again. If you nail it with ease, you're in like Flint and your rep grows quickly.

-Have good gear, and BRING THE RIGHT GEAR. If you walk into a fiill-in situation for a, say, blues band with a Mesa Triple Rec and full stack and 15 overdrive pedals, that's just a TAD bit of overkill. Leave the stack at home and bring the Fender Twin. If a drummer walks in to an acoustic show with and 8-piece double kick setup, he needs to have his head checked.

-Showmanship. Don't be a fucking shoe gazer or that dick who stares at his fretboard all night. There is an audience out there, they are watching you. Make eye contact. Smile. Interact. Do some of that goofy shit we did in the 80s. Make a simple D power chord look extremely difficult to them. Put on a show. The audience will remember you.

Oh, and by the way...

I think we do need more good "rock" bands out there. Some good ones that come to mind are NailDriver, Half Tempted, Hair Force One and Sunset Strip. Not everyone needs to play hair metal, eventhough that is my favorite and what I grew up on, but again, everyone is playing the same setlists for the most part.

Thanks for the kind words. I am fortunate enough to be a part of 2 of those bands, Half Tempted and Naildriver. Although we (Naildriver) are totally different from the other 3 mentioned and are a metal band, it's cool to be given some props by a fellow musician. Much appreciated.

Good luck in your search Max. I'm pullin' for ya. Hang in there.

[Dark Soul]

You could very well be right. For whatever reason, all my efforts have failed and, for reasons largely beyond my control, it doesn't work out even when I do hook up with a group of players. After five years I'm just tired of trying and I'm having more fun recording originals anyway.

[bassist_25]

Greg and Kevin hit on a lot of the things I was getting at. I'll be the first to say that "the scene" ain't what it used to be and the talent level is, well, not what it used to be either. That's not a slam on any particular player out there, but the days of being able to throw a rock in any direction in Central PA and hitting a bad ass musician are over. There are still some great players out there, but they don't seem as plentiful.

Dealing with flakes is unfortunately part of the game. I've been pretty fortunate to play with a lot of professionally-minded people. But then again, I've always been pretty good at screening out the people who would have probably wasted my time. Greg and Kevins' statements about getting a track record are valuable, and I understand the frustration with trying to establish yourself. I remember when I was 22 and felt like I had something to prove to the music world. I've mellowed quite a bit over the past nine or so years. It's made music a much more enjoyable experience.

Paul, I think you would seriously dig kBand.

We seem simpatico.

I've been wanting to check out a show, but my schedule's crazy. I'll be able to breath a little bit at the beginning of January. Do you have any gigs then? Just tell me that you don't do Paradise by the Dashboard Light!

[KeithReynolds]

The contents of this thread make me

Theres some good things sprinkled in here and there.
Bands come and go. Thats why everyone has been in 20 of them. The band youre in now, isnt any more relevant to the one you were in 10 yrs ago. It isnt like someone from an ultra successful band is handing down golden knowledge to all of us. We are ALL in the same boat.

The whole "dues" thing is mostly bs. The "pay your dues" thing has been said on here atleast since I got here in 2005. Guys who have been playing here for 20 years arent millionaires. They arent any better off then a kid forming his first band...except the older guy knows more people.....which comes from living and meeting people over time. The only difference is one can say hes been in 20 bands. Eventually, that kid starting out will be able to say that too.
SO I ASK...Whats the end result of "paying your dues"? what magical club do those guys get to play that everyone else hasnt? does the pay rate triple once "dues" are paid?
Or does it simply mean "be here with the rest of us for 20 years doing the same thing, then all the sudden you are valid....to continue doing the same thing" ???

You cant want a thriving scene, and then toss some huge elitist dividing line in it.
The people that play music around here do it for the love of music. Money cant be the reason because there isnt any.

There is too much Slacktavism when it comes to the local scene. No one does anything. I WILL.

[StumbleFingers]

You could very well be right. For whatever reason, all my efforts have failed and, for reasons largely beyond my control, it doesn't work out even when I do hook up with a group of players. After five years I'm just tired of trying and I'm having more fun recording originals anyway.

It's a shame things haven't worked out because you're a killer musician and the live music scene would be better with you in it. But just that's my selfish wish as a music fan, ya know? You're having fun and making good music and that's what matters in the end.

I remember when I was 22 and felt like I had something to prove to the music world. I've mellowed quite a bit over the past nine or so years. It's made music a much more enjoyable experience.

Not to get all philosophical (that's Paul's job anyway), but happiness is really tied to expectations. In a lot of ways it's a curse to have been part of a stronger music scene because it's so tempting to compare the current situation to what it was, or what you imagine it was. "The scene" is an imaginary construct anyway. Good and bad are all a matter of perspective. There's a lot of fun to be had in the scene right now and I'm glad that I've stuck with it. How does it compare to how it used to be? It doesn't matter. At all. There's a gig this Saturday, I'm fired up for it, the band is going to kick ass and people are going to have fun.