Yay!
I joined the Turn It Down Revolution many years ago, after I mixed a few bands. It's very very simple: Low stage volume equals better sound in the PA. It's tighter, more focused, dynamics pop much better, and the audience likes it a LOT better, save for a few dum-dums who want to show how tough they are by standing in front of a 2" JBL horn.
The idea is to let the PA amps do the heavy lifting, since most local bands probably have more wattage in one subwoofer than the entire backline puts out. That way, the audio guy has most control over the audio in the room, not the guy with the loudest amp, or the drummer who hits the hardest.
Notice I didn't say undersize the PA. I also learned that good PA sound is all about headroom, but that head room is for transient signals (snare hits, vocal plosives, note attack, etc.), not the drone and buzz of the guitar. Thin Ice actually put our amps at side stage rather than behind us facing the crowd. It may not look as impressive, but we found it cut the dance-floor wash way down, so people danced more, and the guitarists loved it because they could now hear the guy on the far side of the stage.
Back then, it was all about truckloads of gear to achieve a certain sound, now, with modeling and emphasis on miniaturization, it's just not necessary. If I was doing an electric band, I'd have a single-12" combo at most, but I'd probably run a Pod (or similar) direct into the monitor rig if I could get away with that. i know you can't always do that, but that would be my starting point.
Jasaoke wrote:
Have you tried turning the volume down? and not banging the drums so hard?
personally, i dont think turning down is goin to help much. whats goin to happen is your goin to have a singer tryin to over power three instruments. imo it'll just strain my voice and sound like crap.
so i'm goin to invest into a PA to run vocals through. and let the amps do their own thing.
i appreciate all the replies and help in this thread.
songsmith wrote: Thin Ice actually put our amps at side stage rather than behind us facing the crowd. It may not look as impressive, but we found it cut the dance-floor wash way down, so people danced more, and the guitarists loved it because they could now hear the guy on the far side of the stage.
+1
We've been doing that for years and it works really well. Putting backline behind you when you have FOH support and everyone isn't using in-ears doesn't even make sense to me anymore.
Then again, it's all smoke and mirrors anyways:
"He's the electric horseman, you better back off!" - old sKool making a reference to the culturally relevant 1979 film.
songsmith wrote: Thin Ice actually put our amps at side stage rather than behind us facing the crowd. It may not look as impressive, but we found it cut the dance-floor wash way down, so people danced more, and the guitarists loved it because they could now hear the guy on the far side of the stage.
+1
We've been doing that for years and it works really well. Putting backline behind you when you have FOH support and everyone isn't using in-ears doesn't even make sense to me anymore.
Then again, it's all smoke and mirrors anyways:
Jeez, who the hell is this band? And is this what it's come down to, really?
I would still recommend powered speakers along with an unpowered amp.
If you are going to go with passive (unpowered speakers), you should consider the Nexos. Here is a gig we did *outside* with a pair of PS 10s and some subs. Yes - the tops had only 10" speakers.
They really do some great things with powered speakers now, and there are clear advantages, like knowing your amps, crossovers, and drivers are all perfectly matched. Make sure you get enough firepower, though. Some of the lesser ones have cheesy or undersized high-frequency drivers, and just can't hang. The ones Floodcity's talking about are top quality, Behringer's are okay for recorded music, but you probably won't be happy with them in a band situation.
QSC K series
QSC KW series
QSC HPR series
Yorkville NX55p or NX550p
I've also used Mackie SRM series. They are pretty good too, though early versions had over heating problems.
I've also listened to the yamaha MSR series that some band had in the mall once. The MSR400 is a nice sounding speaker, but I don't know if it can keep up with loud rock music.
I would shy away from Behringer's loudspeaker offerings. While I think they provide value in other areas, speakers are not a place to cut corners.
If you go unpowered, I would also avoid:
Yamaha Club and BR series, JBL JRX and MR series, nearly anything that is carpeted. Speakers like this require far too much time and DSP to make them sound good. The powered speakers listed above will positively crush anything in this class of box, and won't cost much more.
Another word of advice... stay away from low priced speakers with a 15" low frequency driver. These are bar none, the worst choice for loud rock music.
"Why?" I hear you ask. The reason is, often low priced speakers skimp on the HF driver. This forces the designer to raise the crossover point and makes the LF driver very directional. It also puts a big hole right smack dab in the middle of the vocal range - the exact thing you are trying to amplify.
Stick with a 12" + 1" (throat) 2 way speaker, and you will have better vocals. A 10" + 1" and a modest 18" sub is even better.
Also, a note on High frequency driver sizes:
You will often see speakers advertised with a 2 inch (2") or 1 inch (1") HF speaker. This is nearly ALWAYS the size of the diaphragm in the speaker and not the size of the horn throat.
The best HF made are typically a 2" *throat* with a 4-5" driver behind it. Medium duty HF drivers will be a 1.4" throat with a 2-3" driver behind it. And light duty HF will be a 0.75 or 1" throat with a 1 to 1.75" driver behind it.
Smaller is not worse... but you want the HF size to "line-up" with your LF section. A 15" LF driver with a 1" throat HF driver will suck out loud.
Basically, you don't want two drivers on the extremes (unless there is a 3rd driver handling mids), but I'd stay away from 3 way boxes at this stage because you will run into other issues (size, cost, availability). With three way boxes, you have cheap, good, and small but you can only pick two.
From what I understand, the Wall of Sound was simply incredible to hear. Wasn't there actually two Walls of Sound that would be leap-frogged from venue to venue? I don't think I'd want to stand in front of the FOH all night, every night, though.
I've never been a Deadhead, but I've always liked Garcia's songwriting. I recently listened to some of their older studio recordings, and I'm consistently blown away by the fidelity of those tracks, even in compressed digital format. Honestly, the Golden Road sounds better than anything coming out of the modern hit factory. That's how recorded music should sound!
"He's the electric horseman, you better back off!" - old sKool making a reference to the culturally relevant 1979 film.
