To all you Smarmy Bands out there undercutting to steal gigs & Under-handed Club Manager/Owners who hire them
OR WORSE YET
Think is ok to bad-mouth Musicians to serve your own purposes, or lie about who you know, who is coming to play your club
Or what kind of connections you have
REMEMBER THIS
It is a small world. Many of us have been in this business a long time and have worked hard to get the gigs and money we have earned. We think the relationship between Band & Club should be Symbiotic - that both should benefit. Places like Pellegrine's and The Castle Pub are very good examples of Clubs that understand that hiring QUALITY ENTERTAINMENT is very beneficial to building a good clientele who can count on a bar to present a good time worth that cover charge.
Certain Club owners out there seem to think there is nothing wrong with back stabbing, lying, double-booking & disparaging more established bars in their areas in the hopes of getting people in their establishment.
And Certain bands think nothing of bad mouthing their competition or taking next to nothing in pay to get onstage.
YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE.
PAY YOUR DUES LIKE THE REST OF US.
YOU WILL FIND OUT KARMA IS A BITCH!!
KARMA & THE CLUB SCENE
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CHICKSINGA
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KARMA & THE CLUB SCENE
If Music be the food of Love, Play on...
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bassist_25
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CHICKSINGA
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Don't you guys all pay to play??? The guys at the club told me I was getting a deal. It only cost me and the other guys 75 bucks to play the whole night.
What do they charge you guys to play their clubs? Are we getting a good deal?
!!!
What do they charge you guys to play their clubs? Are we getting a good deal?
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tornandfrayed
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The other hadn
On the other hand I was never really that worried about how much I was going to make to play a show. Granted I never really envisioned playing bars on the weekends as my source of income but then neither did the guys I played with. I think that a lot of bands are just doing it to have fun and experience the thrill of playing rock n roll. Most of the people playing out on any given weekend also have a day job that supports their life.
In all honesty it is hard for me to support any kind of structured pay for bands... I would never dis on anyone who charged a lot more, in fact I hope that you all do well.
My ambition was not to be in a working band, it was to sell millions of albums... Yes I admit it, I wanted (want) to be famous and earn the fickle admiration of a society that is out of control..
I would never bad mouth another band though!
In all honesty it is hard for me to support any kind of structured pay for bands... I would never dis on anyone who charged a lot more, in fact I hope that you all do well.
My ambition was not to be in a working band, it was to sell millions of albums... Yes I admit it, I wanted (want) to be famous and earn the fickle admiration of a society that is out of control..
I would never bad mouth another band though!
Torn & Frayed
One World, One Voice, One God!
Music is LIFE!
One World, One Voice, One God!
Music is LIFE!
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lonewolf
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From another thread. This may help explain the "undercutting":
lonewolf wrote: Because of the "democratization" of music thru karaoke and cheap equipment, there are probably 100 bands around here that would never have gotten out of the garage 35 years ago. It seems today that everybody is a musician, whether they are or not. Because of this, I'm not going to give anybody bad, sugar-coated advice. Telling them to go to college is much better advice than glad-handed, backslapping circlejerkery that could lead them to a life of squalor.
The one thing I did find out through all this is a confirmation that karma does not exist.
Last edited by lonewolf on Tuesday Feb 14, 2012, edited 1 time in total.
Perhaps it takes more time than you might think...the pendulum always swings back.lonewolf wrote:From another thread:
lonewolf wrote:
The one thing I did find out through all this is a confirmation that karma does not exist.
I feel bad that you seem bitter toward the scene in our area, but there is always another door to knock on.
The talent pool fluctuates as well.
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lonewolf
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I appreciate your concern Bill, but please don't confuse bitterness with disgust.Hawk wrote:Perhaps it takes more time than you might think...the pendulum always swings back.lonewolf wrote:From another thread:
lonewolf wrote:
The one thing I did find out through all this is a confirmation that karma does not exist.
I feel bad that you seem bitter toward the scene in our area, but there is always another door to knock on.
The talent pool fluctuates as well.
If 6 years and around 300 high quality shows isn't enough, I don't know what is.
Its not karma, its backwoods blind, ignorant patronage.
Also, I have some issues with both "good" venues mentioned. Few of them are without sin.
Undercutting is simply capitalism at work.
It's supply and demand. There is more supply of musicians than there is demand. This will lead to musicians having to charge less for their services. If current bands don't charge less, they will get priced out of the market by other bands who are willing to drop their prices. This means that the bar owners will be able to get the best price for bands that offer the lowest possible cost with average talent. At this point, there is no way for a band to make a profit. This is the natural order of things in a free market. Prices will decrease until competing businesses lower prices to the point that they operate without profit. Businesses have only two ways to make profit when there is free market competition like this--create a monopoly on something new or reduce costs.
Monopoly: You CAN build a following and strengthen your brand and thus create a monopoly (Your brand/band creates something that no other band can). In this case, you can make a profit because you are the ONLY band that can produce this specific service. If you can't name your price, then your brand is not good enough to create this monopoly status. Period. You can't whine about not getting paid enough because of other bands. You simply don't have something to offfer that no other band can. If you want to make bank, find a way to do this, otherwise there is no sense in complaining. It's simply free market capitalism. (A musicians union would artifically create a monopoly for bands as well, but there is no sense in discussing this, because it would have to include DJs in order for it to work...more on that later).
Cost cutting: The only other way to make a profit in this scenario is to cut costs. Find a way to provide your services for less money. The first cost bands cut is usually the sound guy (sorry sound guys). Lower costs is why DJs do very well. A DJs overhead is much lower than a band's overhead. Bands have to split wages 3 or more ways. All members have to buy their own (VERY) expensive equipment. DJs are basically a substitute good (as in goods and services) for bands (meaning a bar owner is just as happy with a DJ as they are with a band because they provide a similar service). It's like margarine and butter. If the price of margarine increases, the demand for margarine decreases and the demand for butter will increase. So as the price of bands increases, the demand for DJs will increase. As the price of bands decreases, the demand for bands increases and the demand for DJs decreases. The problem here is that DJ's costs are much lower and their profits higher. Since DJs are a substitute for bands, DJs will continue to price bands out of the market as long as the demand for live music doesn't increase (LCB stops hammering bars about loud music, State Police stop handing out DUIs, Playstations around the world stop working, or internet porn is prohibited). Bands will not be able to play in the market unless they continue to drop what they charge venues to a point that they price DJs (or other bands) out of the market, thus reducing the supply of musicians and increasing the demand to the point that prices for bands increase. At this point, bands start wanting to go out and play again at the promise of higher wages. Then the process starts all over again.
Economics 101.
It's supply and demand. There is more supply of musicians than there is demand. This will lead to musicians having to charge less for their services. If current bands don't charge less, they will get priced out of the market by other bands who are willing to drop their prices. This means that the bar owners will be able to get the best price for bands that offer the lowest possible cost with average talent. At this point, there is no way for a band to make a profit. This is the natural order of things in a free market. Prices will decrease until competing businesses lower prices to the point that they operate without profit. Businesses have only two ways to make profit when there is free market competition like this--create a monopoly on something new or reduce costs.
Monopoly: You CAN build a following and strengthen your brand and thus create a monopoly (Your brand/band creates something that no other band can). In this case, you can make a profit because you are the ONLY band that can produce this specific service. If you can't name your price, then your brand is not good enough to create this monopoly status. Period. You can't whine about not getting paid enough because of other bands. You simply don't have something to offfer that no other band can. If you want to make bank, find a way to do this, otherwise there is no sense in complaining. It's simply free market capitalism. (A musicians union would artifically create a monopoly for bands as well, but there is no sense in discussing this, because it would have to include DJs in order for it to work...more on that later).
Cost cutting: The only other way to make a profit in this scenario is to cut costs. Find a way to provide your services for less money. The first cost bands cut is usually the sound guy (sorry sound guys). Lower costs is why DJs do very well. A DJs overhead is much lower than a band's overhead. Bands have to split wages 3 or more ways. All members have to buy their own (VERY) expensive equipment. DJs are basically a substitute good (as in goods and services) for bands (meaning a bar owner is just as happy with a DJ as they are with a band because they provide a similar service). It's like margarine and butter. If the price of margarine increases, the demand for margarine decreases and the demand for butter will increase. So as the price of bands increases, the demand for DJs will increase. As the price of bands decreases, the demand for bands increases and the demand for DJs decreases. The problem here is that DJ's costs are much lower and their profits higher. Since DJs are a substitute for bands, DJs will continue to price bands out of the market as long as the demand for live music doesn't increase (LCB stops hammering bars about loud music, State Police stop handing out DUIs, Playstations around the world stop working, or internet porn is prohibited). Bands will not be able to play in the market unless they continue to drop what they charge venues to a point that they price DJs (or other bands) out of the market, thus reducing the supply of musicians and increasing the demand to the point that prices for bands increase. At this point, bands start wanting to go out and play again at the promise of higher wages. Then the process starts all over again.
Economics 101.
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Yet another post put to death by hicksjd9.
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LOL
Actually I thought it was spot-on. I'm the first to admit our current project did plenty of $200 shows early on... but as we progressed and drew better crowds, we decided we'd rather play one show for triple that per month, than 3 or 4 $200 shows. Once we started drawing, we raised our price, pure and simple. At this point, we say no at least as often as we say yes. Negotiating price with a venue is often as simple as staying with the negotiation. Many people throw a price out there, the venue says no, then the band accepts whatever the next offer is, because negotiation is uncomfortable. Say no, and either keep negotiating, or be done. Be a business, and don't allow your love of playing to enter into it. Not that part, anyway.
We've also found that raising our price has unexpected results... if a venue is risking more money on you, they usually promote you harder on their end, and talk you up to their clientele. This, in turn, raises the pressure on you to deliver, and you work harder at giving them what they want, which is more sales from a thoroughly-entertained crowd.
Trae Buckner from the Hillbilly Gypsies told me something once that has stuck with me: "Nobody wanted us, until they all wanted us." In other words, control the supply, and create the demand. If the oil companies can do it, why not us? Of course, if you expect the world to beat a path to your door, you'd better build a pretty good mousetrap. That's where we as musicians have to focus hardest.
Actually I thought it was spot-on. I'm the first to admit our current project did plenty of $200 shows early on... but as we progressed and drew better crowds, we decided we'd rather play one show for triple that per month, than 3 or 4 $200 shows. Once we started drawing, we raised our price, pure and simple. At this point, we say no at least as often as we say yes. Negotiating price with a venue is often as simple as staying with the negotiation. Many people throw a price out there, the venue says no, then the band accepts whatever the next offer is, because negotiation is uncomfortable. Say no, and either keep negotiating, or be done. Be a business, and don't allow your love of playing to enter into it. Not that part, anyway.
We've also found that raising our price has unexpected results... if a venue is risking more money on you, they usually promote you harder on their end, and talk you up to their clientele. This, in turn, raises the pressure on you to deliver, and you work harder at giving them what they want, which is more sales from a thoroughly-entertained crowd.
Trae Buckner from the Hillbilly Gypsies told me something once that has stuck with me: "Nobody wanted us, until they all wanted us." In other words, control the supply, and create the demand. If the oil companies can do it, why not us? Of course, if you expect the world to beat a path to your door, you'd better build a pretty good mousetrap. That's where we as musicians have to focus hardest.
i was wondering about this. wondering if our band was approaching the scene correctly. we as a band, have decided for the first couple months, we aint makin any money. tryin to get our name out there, askin if we could play for tips on a thursday/friday night. is that a bad approach?songsmith wrote: Actually I thought it was spot-on. I'm the first to admit our current project did plenty of $200 shows early on...
- kayla.
`( f e n d e r)`
No, I don't think so. It might seem like undercutting, but that would be more of a "free sample" approach. Especially since you're a basically unproven product, as a new band with few past achievements.
You do need to understand, however, that if you do that too much, you'll go broke quick. Unless you're so good that tip money pays the bills. It happens, but you can't depend on it.
I think you're in a position where you'll be playing some low-paying shows, at least until word gets out. We're only now reaping the benefits of that stuff, five years in. And we all have at least 20 years' mileage on us individually. I'd focus on my show right now, if I was you guys. That's the fun part anyway. When everybody says to enjoy this, that's because they remember how fun it is. Enjoy!
You do need to understand, however, that if you do that too much, you'll go broke quick. Unless you're so good that tip money pays the bills. It happens, but you can't depend on it.
I think you're in a position where you'll be playing some low-paying shows, at least until word gets out. We're only now reaping the benefits of that stuff, five years in. And we all have at least 20 years' mileage on us individually. I'd focus on my show right now, if I was you guys. That's the fun part anyway. When everybody says to enjoy this, that's because they remember how fun it is. Enjoy!