I dont think Lonewolf is too off base with his "pessimism". It's reality...which people usually label as "Negative".
The most important thing, is to keep yourself based in reality. Alot of bands SAY they have followings and tons of fans, when in reality...its just the drunkards that would be at that bar anyway...and friends of the band. Those arent REAL fans. Thats NOT a following.
Or when a band puts that they are a hot band on their band pages and talks themselves up....Thats not based in reality. EVERYONE knows the live band scene isnt amazing. The avg person doesnt know ANY local bands. Friends of the bands will know the names though.
Screw facebook and myspace. Do PAPER flyers. Not everyone has the net and is on your facebook page. Distribute those PAPER flyers all around town. After a while, you will start to see more people coming. You just gotta keep attacking it. Its not impossible to do at all. If your goal is to actually have those fans, and not just type it on band pages, paper flyers will help. Just takes some hard work. Speaking of work....I gotta get ready to leave.
I know the state of "The Scene" wasn't the purpose of this thread, but it's kind of morphed into it. While I don't necessarily share his cynicism, I do agree with Jeff on some points. I started playing out in 2000. So, I've been around the block here a few times, albeit, not as many times as some of the more senior players. I hate to be a "back in the good ol' days" kind of guy, but I do remember what it was like around the turn of the century here as far as music.
I remember bands like Stept On, Backstreet Law, Juiced, and Nevermoure/Vs. the Earth - when these bands came into town, it was almost like a smaller national was coming in. I don't see bands around here at that level anymore. I remember popping open a PA Musician in any given month and seeing ads of all of these bands that were playing three or four shows a week. Don't see that anymore, either. I remember when only top shelf bands were even considered for many of the venues around here. If you want a qualitative look at how things have changed, spend some time perusing the back archives of JP's Corner. There were a TON of really interesting bands around 8 or 10 years ago, playing everything from original punk to well orchestrated Top 40 dance covers. And the bands had personality...and yes, chops to back it up. That's not to say that there aren't good bands around. Rain Must Fall, Lies Inc., Chris V and the Stanley Street Band, and The Hawks all stand out to me as excellent local talent. But bands of that caliber used to be the norm.
Some of it's probably macro-level changes in music tastes, with people wanting to listen to manufactured dance music replayed by club DJs. Some of it's probably the LCE and .08. Some it's probably the economy. Some of it's probably karaoke, sports, video games, the Internet, and other things taking people's attention. Some of it might even be the smoking ban in certain clubs.
But I'm not bitchin', just stating how I see things from my perspective, and I'm probably romanticizing the past a little bit. At the end of the day, you just have to keep keepin' on. And honestly, that may mean traveling out of the area a little bit to play...or as Jason pointed out, changing your priorities and definition of success. Is that compromise? Perhaps, but sometimes you need to reassess. Keep rockin', Kayla. There's still people out there who want to listen.
"He's the electric horseman, you better back off!" - old sKool making a reference to the culturally relevant 1979 film.
Look at how many venues closed or stopped having music in the last 10 years. Probably double that if you go back 20 years.
Petey's---Peter C's----Victory Lane---The Bar---The Ramada (Hurricanes used to play there every other weekend)---The Haunted House---Monkey Wharf---
Others (I forgot the name), like where Uno's restaurant was built. I am sure there are more that I can't remember right now, but those lost venues mean a lot less bands playing out on weekends.
bassist_25 wrote:
If you want a qualitative look at how things have changed, spend some time perusing the back archives of JP's Corner. There were a TON of really interesting bands around 8 or 10 years ago, playing everything from original punk to well orchestrated Top 40 dance covers. And the bands had personality...and yes, chops to back it up. That's not to say that there aren't good bands around. Rain Must Fall, Lies Inc., Chris V and the Stanley Street Band, and The Hawks all stand out to me as excellent local talent. But bands of that caliber used to be the norm.
i have spent some time goin back through JP's corner and have often wondered, what happened to these bands? ive only been on the local seen three years or so. so for me, its kinda normal not to see a ton of people out for live music.
i like your comment about the bands having personality, i think at times that lacking with a lot of people. it seems more of a night job than just havin some fun playin tunes.
im not sure if people are naiive to the music scene or just not interested. before i started playin music, i really didn't think about goin to see a band. i've tried my hardest to get my friends out to see music, it usually takes askin a few times, but once i do they seem to get into it. it isn't unusual now for people to ask me if i know whos playin locally.
i do appreciate all of the posts, its nice to not have everything sugarcoated. i do expect to struggle with the band, its payin dues. i understand it.
I think the days of the "barband" are numbered, if they're not already over. I can remember hoping to God we got a gig somewhere that WASN'T a bar, that seemed like all we ever played. Now, I play bar shows less than once a month.
There's just too much working against it. PLCB, DUI checkpoints, smoking bans (which I still support, BTW), 200 channels on TV, the internet, other alternative means of entertainment... all factors in the bar scene's demise.
I started saying several years ago that musicians should start looking for other places to play, and that's not an "I-told-you-so" kind of thing, I miss how cool it used to be, too. I had the time of my life playing rowdy bars, and seldom took it for granted. I just saw the writing on the wall, and I think a few other older pickers did, too.
Danny Klock puts on his own shows, rents a hall and everything. Numerous bands are doing their own festivals and multi-band events. I started a jam session (at a bar) that featured a different kind of music than people were used to on the Altoona bar-scene, and found out that while the audience was small, there was a lot of potential there. Today I played for nearly a thousand people at a wine-tasting event, no kidding. Not because we're incredible musicians, Lord knows, but because it's something different, that people can listen to and still have a conversation.
I think you just have to find a niche, and fill it. There are still places that nobody looks... there's an ATV park up the mountain, that I see on the outdoor channels all the time, that has people come up from Nashville to play, but nobody around here does, as far as I know. If I was in a young rock band, I'd be all over that. There's a mountain-biking event at Raystown Lake that brings thousands of rowdy young people, and they can't find enough entertainment. You have to think outside the box, and show some entrepreneurial spirit, they aren't often going to come to you. Mama Corn plays biker rallies, church festivals, bluegrass festivals and one-offs, arts festivals, hay rides, the aforementioned wine events, trade shows, wedding receptions, restaurants, and yes, sometimes bars. We play a fair amount of backyard parties... the money can be surprising, and without all the social trappings of the bar scene, people actually listen. (Of course, you will generally have to keep things under control. Getting out of hand is NOT an option.)
There's still plenty of ways to dig things up. Jim Price, God Bless him, is ALWAYS a great resource. He literally sees everything entertainment, and a short conversation with him is invaluable. You can increase your karma points by passing on gigs to other bands, too, that stuff usually comes back to you when they hear of something. I read every Pennysaver newspaper, too, they always have event announcements.
In short, there's still a music scene, it's just not what it was however-many years ago, and it's unlikely that it will resume it's previous status. Your only recourse if you want to keep playing is to evolve.
Mikey Wax wrote:
I'd be interested in hearing some elaboration on this statement before I chime in. Seeing as how I was one of the "new drummers"
Yeah that makes 2 of us and I'd love to hear the thread about this fickleness.
As I said:
"It wasn't any problem with you guys...it was the fact that we had to keep doing it."
And when I bother to put in an "lol", you can bet its for humor. If you want to see that fickleness thread, find the thread with the drummer jokes.
I just guess the direction this thread went got under my skin. Here is a young girl wanting to make her name in the music industry. And she is CLEARLY excited to get out there and play. And instead of giving her the encouragement and tools to do it, she had to read about how lousy the music scene is. And that basically, she'd be better off putting all her shit on Ebay, and trying something else. That's incredibly irresponsible as experienced musicians. It's our job to show her how fulfilling a life as a musician truly can be.
I'm sure I speak for the majority of us, by saying music is a life-changing experience. 20+ years ago I was given the choice of going to the art institute of Pittsburgh, and having my tuition paid in full.... or ..... I could continue to 'waste' my life away playing those 'stupid' drums, and move out. I chose the latter. And Kayla let me tell you, I wouldn't change a fuckin thing about the decision I made. Music opened my eyes to a world I never knew existed.
The thrill you get when you look out into a crowd of people, and seeing a wave of energy coming right back at you.
The way the hair stands on your arms when you hear people you never met, singing the lyrics to YOUR songs. Or when complete strangers ask for an autograph. Or chicks (who are clearly out of your league) handing you their phone numbers.
Getting to see places you'd never get to see.
Doing things you'd never get to do.
And meeting people you'd never get to meet.
My life would have been pretty goddamn boring, had it not been for that choice I made, all those years ago.
Kayla you sound intensely enthusiastic about your love for music and this industry. I remember that same intensity and all the thrills that came with that journey. Enjoy it Kayla!! Enjoy every damn minute of it!!! The rewards are out there...and all you have to do is grab them with two hands and hold on for the ride of your life!
First of all, good thread thus far, and a lot of valid points are being made.
Second, to Kayla, it's great to see you're enjoying your musical journey thus far. It's always a good feeling when some technique or nuance you had to labor at mastering eventually becomes automatic and second nature. I'm back into practice mode with my ukulele and acoustic guitar, and hope I can get back to some level of confidence on both soon, schedule permitting.
Third, regarding the issue of the music scene, I agree with many of the observations made already. Songsmith makes a lot of good points about the changing of the scene and how musicians need to adapt and evolve.
As far as dwindling numbers of people out to see live music, it is all over the place and not just here. I'm hoping to hear some views about this when I attend the Millennium Music Conference later this month; I'm sure it will be a topic there.
Another factor that I think is contributing to the dwindling numbers is our changing work culture. I base this observation on my own situation and why I haven't been able to update "JP's Corner" in so long. As people have been laid off and seen their full-time gigs disappear, many have had to adapt by taking on two or more part-time gigs to make ends meet. So instead of enjoying that regular work schedule of Monday through Friday and then going out on Friday and Saturday nights, people find themselves having to work odd hours on weekends, or so maxxed out with their work schedules that they have neither time nor energy to go out and see live music. Right now I'm balancing four different part-time endeavors, and although covering the music scene for PA Musician and hosting the "Homegrown Rocker" on Rocky are two of them, each of the jobs eats up more total time than my former full-time gig in radio did, so I just don't have as much time to devote to leisure activities (like updating "JP's Corner"). The paying gigs have to take priority. I'm sure for people who are just casual live music fans, it takes a lot more motivation and incentive to get them up off the couch to go out and see live music on a Saturday night than it used to.
I agree with the observation that the bands and performers who can establish a personality that people can identify with are more likely to be successful. It's simply not enough just to learn everybody's favorite cover songs any more. Fans connect with an identity, whether that is established through original music, the overall personality of the band members, the energy and enthusiasm of a performance, or something else. The bands that seem to be most successful in this area are the ones that have established that identity and personality, and stand apart from the rest of the pack. Performers who establish that identity seem to be the ones fans gravitate toward and come back to see.
I know at least a half dozen 20 somethings that go to bars EVERY WEEKEND but have never seen a live show! nor express a desire to do so. They go for the DJ's and Karaoke..it's a whole new generation that doesn't appreciate the "live" experience like we do. At least that's "my" experience..so i'm generalizing...
I tell them about this local band i saw that i liked or ask them who they like local ..all i get back is a blank stare. It's a weird thing that hard to put your finger on. I don't know if there is a solution. Again I'm generalizing and may be i'm wrong here about that age group...anyway that's my 2 cents worth.
sstuckey wrote:
That's incredibly irresponsible as experienced musicians. It's our job to show her how fulfilling a life as a musician truly can be.
As an experienced musician, I'm going to tell a budding musician about how great creating and performing music can be. I'm going to tell them about the sense of accomplishment when you nail that riff that's been kicking your ass all along. I'm going to tell them about how great it feels when someone comes up and gives an honest compliment.
I'm also going to tell them about shifty promoters, club owners, and agents who have no problem taking every bit of advantage of you. I'm going to tell them about apathetic crowds who couldn't care less how much time, talent, and money you've invested in your craft. I'm going to tell them about all of the flakes in this craft, not to mention the substance abusers and ego-maniacs.
There's the great side of music and there's the shitty side of it too. People should know about both before going in.
"He's the electric horseman, you better back off!" - old sKool making a reference to the culturally relevant 1979 film.
I think everyone knows that going in.. You'd almost have to be a dumb ass to think your gonna just pick up insturment, get paid a killing, have a packed house, thinking that everything is going to be "A OK" right off the bat.. unless your some popular trust fund kid, that can afford a pro stage show, and have piles of friends that are into every aspect of what your doing ither genuinely or just cause its the "in" thing to do..
This evolving that was mentioned is where its at.. You almost have to pick a demographic and go for it. Make sure its not the same demographic, that goes to listen to Dj's and sing Karaoke.
You wont be able to convince those kids to come out.. Those types are a whole different breed all together.
I listened to metal and punk for the most part growing up and playing in this scene.. and thought at the time that I would always play that type of music in my musical journeys.. I also thought that getting paid 500-1000 dolllars for a nights gig would always be the norm. However that has changed and so has the style of music that I play.. I went from playing in a band called Broken Neck, playing slow and smashing metal riffs, to Playing with Chris Vipond playing a style of music thats comparable to what the Allman Brothers and Led Zepplin would sould like smashed together.. We picked a demographic that works.. We could have done the same old thing.. but we realized there is a market out there for something other than your typical 80's coverband (no offense sunset) or coverbands that have shared the same dull ass, played out, set list that everyone has been doing for the last 20 years or more..
I am guilty of it.. but somewhere it hit me.. and I thought, the only way to promote change is to start being different, so then I sought out something different that I wanted to be a part of..
Songsmith did it too.. Ya know he didn't always rock the strings for Mama Corn.. He played the 80's and the Rock stuff but now he's found a nice little spot to get comfortable in.. 1000 peeps for a wine taster event.. sounds like success to me..
I think everyone could benefit from a little adaptation.. Look at Nothing Sacred and the Railroad city murder machines.. They also play Hardcore metal.. and no one laughs at them when they do the acoustic thing..
playing for a dinner crowd in some restaurant is nothing to be ashamed of. Sometimes sticking to your guns dosent work.. especially if it never did. Thats all I can think of for now.. my eyes are bloodshot..
to finish up, all I can say is bassist_25 and songsmith are right i'm afraid.
You have to branch out and find other niches and venues to play or you'll probably go the way of the dinosaur eventually.
Kayla, I remember my first 3 years of gigs, It was some of the best times of my life that I will aways remember.. My first bar gig was at Aldo's at the ripe age of 13 for a Band called 4-Twenty.. haha Enjoy the early years now cause you never get them back.
Recording Records DIY, with more than one good song. Watch for my new band
"This Albatross"
cucuplex96 wrote:I think everyone knows that going in.. You'd almost have to be a dumb ass to think your gonna just pick up insturment, get paid a killing, have a packed house, thinking that everything is going to be "A OK" right off the bat.. unless your some popular trust fund kid, that can afford a pro stage show, and have piles of friends that are into every aspect of what your doing ither genuinely or just cause its the "in" thing to do..
I don't know, Phil. I've met a lot of young musicians who honestly thought just that. Of course, as Songsmith has pointed out numerous times, they usually get weeded out fairly soon.
"He's the electric horseman, you better back off!" - old sKool making a reference to the culturally relevant 1979 film.
cucuplex96 wrote:I think everyone knows that going in.. You'd almost have to be a dumb ass to think your gonna just pick up insturment, get paid a killing, have a packed house, thinking that everything is going to be "A OK" right off the bat.. unless your some popular trust fund kid, that can afford a pro stage show, and have piles of friends that are into every aspect of what your doing ither genuinely or just cause its the "in" thing to do..
This evolving that was mentioned is where its at.. You almost have to pick a demographic and go for it. Make sure its not the same demographic, that goes to listen to Dj's and sing Karaoke.
You wont be able to convince those kids to come out.. Those types are a whole different breed all together.
I listened to metal and punk for the most part growing up and playing in this scene.. and thought at the time that I would always play that type of music in my musical journeys.. I also thought that getting paid 500-1000 dolllars for a nights gig would always be the norm. However that has changed and so has the style of music that I play.. I went from playing in a band called Broken Neck, playing slow and smashing metal riffs, to Playing with Chris Vipond playing a style of music thats comparable to what the Allman Brothers and Led Zepplin would sould like smashed together.. We picked a demographic that works.. We could have done the same old thing.. but we realized there is a market out there for something other than your typical 80's coverband (no offense sunset) or coverbands that have shared the same dull ass, played out, set list that everyone has been doing for the last 20 years or more..
I am guilty of it.. but somewhere it hit me.. and I thought, the only way to promote change is to start being different, so then I sought out something different that I wanted to be a part of..
Songsmith did it too.. Ya know he didn't always rock the strings for Mama Corn.. He played the 80's and the Rock stuff but now he's found a nice little spot to get comfortable in.. 1000 peeps for a wine taster event.. sounds like success to me..
I think everyone could benefit from a little adaptation.. Look at Nothing Sacred and the Railroad city murder machines.. They also play Hardcore metal.. and no one laughs at them when they do the acoustic thing..
playing for a dinner crowd in some restaurant is nothing to be ashamed of. Sometimes sticking to your guns dosent work.. especially if it never did. Thats all I can think of for now.. my eyes are bloodshot..
to finish up, all I can say is bassist_25 and songsmith are right i'm afraid.
You have to branch out and find other niches and venues to play or you'll probably go the way of the dinosaur eventually.
Kayla, I remember my first 3 years of gigs, It was some of the best times of my life that I will aways remember.. My first bar gig was at Aldo's at the ripe age of 13 for a Band called 4-Twenty.. haha Enjoy the early years now cause you never get them back.
Phil, this is the best thing Ive read in this entire Thread! Thanks!
We got all highed Up and somebody put the car in the Pool!
