Good way to ruin your breakfast!

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Thursday Nov 10, 2011

autumnsky wrote:Since when is finding an adult raping a kid up the ass in a college-owned shower considered a "non-emergency crime"? Maybe in 20 years or so when the kid grows up to be an abuser himself???

When the crime is no longer in progress and the victim is no longer there it is non-emergency.

It was an emergency when McCreary witnessed it and he should have immediately dialed 911 and then restrained the monster and then hurt him real bad when he tried to "resist".

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Thursday Nov 10, 2011

"My opinion is when Sandusky quit, everybody knew -- not just at Penn State," Madden added. "I think it was a very poorly kept secret about college football in general, and that is why he never coached in college football again and retired at the relatively young age of 55. [That's] young for a coach, certainly."

http://www.nesn.com/2011/11/jerry-sandu ... adden.html

"I hear there's a rumor that there will be a more shocking development from the Second Mile Foundation -- and hold on to your stomachs, boys, this is gross, I will use the only language I can -- that Jerry Sandusky and Second Mile were pimping out young boys to rich donors. That was being investigated by two prominent columnists even as I speak."

nakedtwister · Post by **nakedtwister** » Thursday Nov 10, 2011

Ok, why stop stop with the PSU Admin. What about the parents of the kids? Who in their right mind allows kids to hang out with a stranger at night or stay over his house for that matter. Isn't there a negligence there? That's how I feel as a parent. PSU had to fire Joe to save face with the public and the media. Pray for the victims and stop bashing Joe until the truth is revealed.

sstuckey · Post by **sstuckey** » Thursday Nov 10, 2011

WHO GIVES A FUCK?!!!! The emphasis on this whole situation should be on the kids!!!! The REAL victims!!!! Who gives a rat's ass if Joe is coach or not? These kids have to relive a nightmare day after day for the rest of their lives and all most people seem to care about is Joe Paterno's status as head coach!!! What the fuck is wrong with people?!

nakedtwister · Post by **nakedtwister** » Thursday Nov 10, 2011

Note: I said pray for the victims.

Bloodsong · Post by **Bloodsong** » Thursday Nov 10, 2011

I respectfully disagree with you Lonewolf. I think Joe himself had always told his student/ atheletes that to be SPECIAL you have to work HARDER; you have to do MORE. the minimum or just enough isn't good enough. you don't become great or call yourself great when you don't assume more responsibility for everything you do and around you. Just my 2 cents.

Naga · Post by **Naga** » Saturday Nov 12, 2011

Any which way you look at it, somebody screwed up. I get the "not kicking someone's ass" bit. Everybody's trying to be "professional". "I couldn't attack him. I'd lose my job", the witness might say. Ok... Even if the guy would've called 911, given details, and waited around for the cops, I wouldn't be so incredibly pissed about this. There comes a day when you have an internal battle like this. Morals vs. professionalism, and most people are too attached to their jobs. Not my end-all decision, but still... But damnit, why wait months and months to crack this fucking case open!!!

As far as Penn State policy goes, about not using the police unless something is immediately happening,... That's bullshit itself. If somebody's getting mugged, I don't care if the perp still has a gun trained on somebody, or just finished a mile-long dash and is on their jet for Hawaii. I'm still going to do something. Whether it's to pull my phone out, and hit those 3 numbers, or it's to grab the other guy up and put him on the ground, something still would be done. Hell, even if the first reaction is to walk over to the victim and talk to them to keep them calm, and tell someone else to grab the perp, or to call the cops, I'm still doing something, and being involved directly

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Saturday Nov 12, 2011

Naga wrote: As far as Penn State policy goes, about not using the police unless something is immediately happening,... That's bullshit itself. If somebody's getting mugged, I don't care if the perp still has a gun trained on somebody, or just finished a mile-long dash and is on their jet for Hawaii. I'm still going to do something. Whether it's to pull my phone out, and hit those 3 numbers, or it's to grab the other guy up and put him on the ground, something still would be done. Hell, even if the first reaction is to walk over to the victim and talk to them to keep them calm, and tell someone else to grab the perp, or to call the cops, I'm still doing something, and being involved directly

In all those cases, that's exactly what you are supposed to do. Its exactly what McQueary failed to do.

However, if you are sitting in your living room a day after the crime, getting abbreviated second-hand information from a student, you do what you are supposed to do and that is contact the department head. You do that because its what you've always done. You do that because you have done it hundreds of times before over a 62 year period of employment and wouldn't think twice about reporting it any other way. Its what you've always done for theft, assault and rape situations.

What makes this any different?

It doesn't matter...Had he called the police and they let the monster go a 2nd time, the Joe-Haters would be bitching that he didn't go to his superiors to make sure the police didn't bungle the job again. And they'd have a more legitimate argument too...hmmm, I can hear it now: "he didn't follow protocol."

After reading the Grand Jury Presentation and not having any more legitimate information to add to it, it only proves that Joe Paterno is legally and morally guilty of trusting his superiors.

Don Hughes · Post by **Don Hughes** » Saturday Nov 12, 2011

lonewolf wrote:
undercoverjoe wrote:
lonewolf wrote: No, if you WITNESS child abuse and do not report it, it is a crime.

If you act on hearsay and your informant is wrong, you can be subject to libel. That goes for both of the above statements.

McCreary=material witness
Paterno=football coach with hearsay 2nd hand knowledge

From a strict legal point of view, Paterno wasn't even eligible to call the police in this matter.
If one of your employees see a crime and report it to you, the reigning god of Penn State Football, you probably should call the cops and let them investigate it.
Absolutely incorrect.

When Paterno was informed, the crime was no longer in progress and was no longer deemed "emergency".

At Penn State, the standard procedure for reporting non-emergency crime is to report it to the department head for further disposition.

At Penn State, the standard procedure for reporting non-emergency crime is to report it to the department head for further disposition.

At Penn State, the standard procedure for reporting non-emergency crime is to report it to the department head for further disposition.

At Penn State, the standard procedure for reporting non-emergency crime is to report it to the department head for further disposition.

At Penn State, the standard procedure for reporting non-emergency crime is to report it to the department head for further disposition.

Did ya'll get that? I wouldn't want to have to repeat myself...again.

I know this as a fact because I worked there and had to report a few non-emergency crimes. The first time, i reported it directly to the University Police and got my ass reamed for not going to the department head first.

Paterno, by his own choice, was NOT a department head and purposely resigned his position as Athletic Director years before so that he wouldn't have to deal with all that responsibility as head coach.

Had one of the grad students that I supervised come to me with the same kind of story with a Professor Emeritus that I knew, I would have taken them directly to the department head. Chances are, I would have been dismissed from the incident since I had no 1st hand knowledge of the crime and couldn't provide any additional information.

After that, I seriously doubt that they would include me in the investigation and would not inform me about their progress. If I was to inquire, I would very likely be told nothing.

Standard Procedure my @$$. What about GOOD MORALS??? What about human decency? Non-emergency? A 10 year old boy was allegedly being raped, and that's not an emergency?! "Oh it already happened, it's not an emergency." Bullshit!

Don Hughes · Post by **Don Hughes** » Saturday Nov 12, 2011

nakedtwister wrote:Ok, why stop stop with the PSU Admin. What about the parents of the kids? Who in their right mind allows kids to hang out with a stranger at night or stay over his house for that matter. Isn't there a negligence there? That's how I feel as a parent. PSU had to fire Joe to save face with the public and the media. Pray for the victims and stop bashing Joe until the truth is revealed.

Brian, I don't think I've heard that argument from anyone, much less a parent. Thank you. Just because Sandusky is a public figure, doesn't mean he isn't a stranger.

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Saturday Nov 12, 2011

Don Hughes wrote: Standard Procedure my @$$. What about GOOD MORALS??? What about human decency? Non-emergency? A 10 year old boy was allegedly being raped, and that's not an emergency?! "Oh it already happened, it's not an emergency." Bullshit!

Read the post before yours and if that doesn't make it any clearer, I can't help you.

Don Hughes · Post by **Don Hughes** » Sunday Nov 13, 2011

I have read the post above mine. Joe Paterno, McQueary, Graham, and everyone else involved, did not call the police. Had they done a simple 911 phone call, in my mind, that would have been enough. Athletic directors of universities are not trained in investigations into child molestation, law enforcement is. If law enforcement found that there was not enough evidence, at least they would have called professionals, not school administrators who have very little training in law enforcement.

Don Hughes · Post by **Don Hughes** » Sunday Nov 13, 2011

lonewolf wrote:After reading the Grand Jury Presentation and not having any more legitimate information to add to it, it only proves that Joe Paterno is legally and morally guilty of trusting his superiors.

I once had a superior fired for stealing. I DON'T trust my superiors 100%. Didn't the entire country learn this when Richard Nixon lied to the entire country?

Let's get one more thing straight. Just because they are higher ranking, does not mean that they are "superior" (I know I'm word-playing there). They are no more superior to me, just as I am no more superior to the people below me. We are all human beings.

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Sunday Nov 13, 2011

just FYI: One of the definitions of the word superior literally means higher rank. Armed with this knowledge, I used it that way in a sentence.

Definition of SUPERIOR

1: situated higher up : upper
2: of higher rank, quality, or importance

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Sunday Nov 13, 2011

Don Hughes wrote:I have read the post above mine. Joe Paterno, McQueary, Graham, and everyone else involved, did not call the police. Had they done a simple 911 phone call, in my mind, that would have been enough. Athletic directors of universities are not trained in investigations into child molestation, law enforcement is. If law enforcement found that there was not enough evidence, at least they would have called professionals, not school administrators who have very little training in law enforcement.

Then, you'll have to call Penn State and have them change their policy. I'm sure they will get right on it.

Administrators do not do investigations. They are supposed to log the info and then call police. If they are found guilty of perjury, Curley and Schultz conspired to cover it up and their troubles are just beginning.

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Sunday Nov 13, 2011

I'm still not convinced by the preponderance of evidence that Paterno was told enough by McQueary to even warrant a police call by Paterno.

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Sunday Nov 13, 2011

lonewolf wrote: At Penn State, the standard procedure for reporting non-emergency crime is to report it to the department head for further disposition.

At Penn State, the standard procedure for reporting non-emergency crime is to report it to the department head for further disposition.

At Penn State, the standard procedure for reporting non-emergency crime is to report it to the department head for further disposition.

At Penn State, the standard procedure for reporting non-emergency crime is to report it to the department head for further disposition.

At Penn State, the standard procedure for reporting non-emergency crime is to report it to the department head for further disposition.

Did ya'll get that? I wouldn't want to have to repeat myself...again.

Wolf, I really don't think anybody denies that the Penn State reporting procedure is too lax, and allowed young boys to be raped on-campus.

As an alum and former employee, you seem satisfied that University faculty did what little they were required BY THE UNIVERSITY to do. THE UNIVERSITY is not, and will never be, the ultimate authority in this matter, and if that weren't true, nobody would be lawyering up right now, and Penn State wouldn't be looking at a credit-rating downgrade pending civil lawsuits.
Sandusky wasn't let go years ago because he wasn't an effective coach, he was let go over these same allegations, BUT NOT PROSECUTED. The abuse continued, and everybody who was privy to abuse allegations and did nothing is legally culpable, certainly civilly, and probably criminally, as well, whether or not they actually touched any kids. I think all the different investigations ongoing are proof of that.

It does not matter what Penn State's reporting procedure is, the State of Pennsylvania's criminal code supercedes it.
It does not matter what Penn State's reporting procedure is, the State of Pennsylvania's criminal code supercedes it.
It does not matter what Penn State's reporting procedure is, the State of Pennsylvania's criminal code supercedes it.
It does not matter what Penn State's reporting procedure is, the State of Pennsylvania's criminal code supercedes it.

I'm not a PSU-basher, nor a fan of some other college sports franchise. I stated before JoePa's firing that I didn't want him to go, but he should go. I have no chip on my shoulder for a mere sports program.
A bunch of at-risk boys were sexually preyed upon. Police were never called. Sandusky went on for more than a decade, scot-free.
I just can't rationalize this.

RobTheDrummer · Post by **RobTheDrummer** » Sunday Nov 13, 2011

Well, this stuff is just what we know. How many years has Paterno and Sandusky been together? You tell me this only happened once? And Joe didn't know about Sandusky's secret boy escapades? I'm just wondering what we are going to find out when they dig deeper. I know one thing, the pattern for child molesters is that they get caught with one charge, however there are always many many victims that we don't know about.

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Sunday Nov 13, 2011

songsmith wrote: Wolf, I really don't think anybody denies that the Penn State reporting procedure is too lax, and allowed young boys to be raped on-campus.

As an alum and former employee, you seem satisfied that University faculty did what little they were required BY THE UNIVERSITY to do.

Completely incorrect. I am saying that PATERNO did what he should have done. Curley failed in his duty to call the University police, as did Schultz. From the GJ presentation, I believe that Curley and Schultz are criminally negligent and will be charged with more crimes as the truth unfolds.

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Sunday Nov 13, 2011

songsmith wrote: It does not matter what Penn State's reporting procedure is, the State of Pennsylvania's criminal code supercedes it.
It does not matter what Penn State's reporting procedure is, the State of Pennsylvania's criminal code supercedes it.
It does not matter what Penn State's reporting procedure is, the State of Pennsylvania's criminal code supercedes it.
It does not matter what Penn State's reporting procedure is, the State of Pennsylvania's criminal code supercedes it.

Again, incorrect. Penn State's reporting procedure INCLUDES the State of Pennsylvania's criminal code and that means informing the police.

Curley and Schultz failed to do this.

Don Hughes · Post by **Don Hughes** » Sunday Nov 13, 2011

I wonder what this will do to enrollment, football recruiting, scholarships, government funding, etc...

I think the local community won't be dissuaded to want to attend Penn State, but what about the out of state kids who want to come here? Will they have second thoughts?

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Sunday Nov 13, 2011

lonewolf wrote:
songsmith wrote: Wolf, I really don't think anybody denies that the Penn State reporting procedure is too lax, and allowed young boys to be raped on-campus.

As an alum and former employee, you seem satisfied that University faculty did what little they were required BY THE UNIVERSITY to do.
Completely incorrect. I am saying that PATERNO did what he should have done. Curley failed in his duty to call the University police, as did Schultz. From the GJ presentation, I believe that Curley and Schultz are criminally negligent and will be charged with more crimes as the truth unfolds.

I think "I am saying that PATERNO did what he should have done," pretty much indicates that you are satisfied with JoePa's response to the situation. I am not, and I don't think the law is satisfied, either. Curley and Schultz WERE criminally negligent, but that doesn't excuse everyone else in the cover-up. The PSU crime-reporting procedure is obviously fault, but it doesn't take a genius to know that this should have gone to police immediately, and EVERYONE who did not report it IS AT FAULT. From the parents who failed their own children, to PSU staff directly and even indirectly involved, to Sandusky himself, EVERYONE who did not immediately call the police was not acting in the interest of the victims. If this includes Joe Paterno, so be it.

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Sunday Nov 13, 2011

RobTheDrummer wrote:Well, this stuff is just what we know. How many years has Paterno and Sandusky been together? You tell me this only happened once? And Joe didn't know about Sandusky's secret boy escapades? I'm just wondering what we are going to find out when they dig deeper. I know one thing, the pattern for child molesters is that they get caught with one charge, however there are always many many victims that we don't know about.

Another pattern for child molesters is that they often have dual lives and the people who "know" Dr. Jekyll often don't find out about Mr. Hyde until they get caught with that one charge.

Unless presented with overwhelming evidence, most friends of Dr. Jekyll will exhibit strong denial of the existence of Mr. Hyde, especially when Dr. Jekyll is a "pillar of the community".

This and the close relationship between Sandusky and Paterno is exactly why I don't believe that Paterno was dissuaded by the incomplete and abbreviated information that McQueary told him.

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Sunday Nov 13, 2011

songsmith wrote:
lonewolf wrote:
songsmith wrote: Wolf, I really don't think anybody denies that the Penn State reporting procedure is too lax, and allowed young boys to be raped on-campus.

As an alum and former employee, you seem satisfied that University faculty did what little they were required BY THE UNIVERSITY to do.
Completely incorrect. I am saying that PATERNO did what he should have done. Curley failed in his duty to call the University police, as did Schultz. From the GJ presentation, I believe that Curley and Schultz are criminally negligent and will be charged with more crimes as the truth unfolds.
I think "I am saying that PATERNO did what he should have done," pretty much indicates that you are satisfied with JoePa's response to the situation. I am not, and I don't think the law is satisfied, either. Curley and Schultz WERE criminally negligent, but that doesn't excuse everyone else in the cover-up. The PSU crime-reporting procedure is obviously fault, but it doesn't take a genius to know that this should have gone to police immediately, and EVERYONE who did not report it IS AT FAULT. From the parents who failed their own children, to PSU staff directly and even indirectly involved, to Sandusky himself, EVERYONE who did not immediately call the police was not acting in the interest of the victims. If this includes Joe Paterno, so be it.

Perhaps i missed something. What testimony in the GJ presentation leads you to believe that Paterno should have done anything else?

nakedtwister · Post by **nakedtwister** » Sunday Nov 13, 2011

RobTheDrummer wrote:Well, this stuff is just what we know. How many years has Paterno and Sandusky been together? You tell me this only happened once? And Joe didn't know about Sandusky's secret boy escapades? I'm just wondering what we are going to find out when they dig deeper. I know one thing, the pattern for child molesters is that they get caught with one charge, however there are always many many victims that we don't know about.

So you can say without hesitation that Joe knew of Sandusky's escapades but his own family, who would be much closer to him, knew nothing. Is Matt Millen also guilt because he was a part of Second Mile. Guilty by association?
I will judge people based on the facts.