you tell me

[becky]

ok bands I want some opinions and some honest answers. I really have tried to express my opinions on how the bar owners should step up and help keep the music alive and going. now it is your turn to tell me what you think we should do to help you out more.
#1 we are not your promoters, you should be. I am one of the few that will talk you guys up to another bar owner but I am an exception to the rule evidently. I thought that if I enjoy the music others should hear it too.
#2 some bars, especially new owners cannot shell out big amounts of cash to have some bands play. we need to figure out a way to promote equally. and to make it fair for both sides.
#3 if I agree to pay for a band and only sell $700 worth of beer, it actually costs me money to have you play, how can we figure out a better system for advertising you guys and girls from out of town? I can give you this. if I pay you $550 to play at my place,and I only have 65 people show up because they do not know who the band is at $5 cover and then only sell $700 in beer, I still have to pay you, my bills, and employees etc... and I am usually breaking even or in the hole at that point. so if it is less people, and less beer sales I am really in the hole then.
#4 I have talked to a friend of mine (who also owns a bar) and he is thinking about getting bands twice a month, if I book you on a friday would you have a problem playing on a saturday at his place for the same deal you make with me? or vice-versa? this will get you out twice in the same area to help promote and add to your fan base. the peeps are just as important to us as they are to you. I will do everything I can to try to book you on consecutive nights. will this help anyone?

[HurricaneBob]

Well Becky, paying a band that much when they do not draw will certainly put you out of biz quick. Weve always worked with the club owner on bad nites and i hope other bands do the same. We cant use the rockstar attitude when we dont draw now can we. You can tell that by the deal we made with you guys for the 25th. Your a new club and hope to see you in it for the long run. If you dont make it in the register, how can you pay it out.

Also tell bands how many the club holds and go from there.

The deal with the other club sounds good, another place to play in a new area will only help get the word out.

[Banned]

A good policy is to keep your expectations low, and be realistic about where your club is at in terms of attendance. When in doubt, aim low. If you book a band for $500 and pay them $350, they will be bitter and you will probably get some bad word of mouth. But if you book a band for $300 and pay them $350, they will be your friends for life.

And don't forget that there are career musicians out there who count on that gig money to pay their bills. Many bands will work with you at the end of a bad night, but if someone stands their ground and wants the full amount, their motivation is unlikely to be greed. More likely they are concerned about keeping a roof over their kids' heads. So try to be kind to us poor hapless musical types!

Promotion-wise, look for bands to supply you with flyers and posters. We also do whatever promotion we can through websites, word of mouth, handing out cards and schedules, and so forth. Anything beyond that is usually out of our price range, unfortunately.

[Skate Toad]

Lower guarantees with a promise of the extra over that made off the door cover going to the band. For example $300 then anything over that at the door goes to the band. So if 100 people show up at $5 a head the band walks with and extra $200 Etc. Etc. Gives the band incentive to get flyers out do radio spots etc etc. But make them feel like they aren't getting screwed. I've seen a bunch of clubs go right for the high price bands hoping to draw bigger crowds only to end up losing tons of money. I think if you have one or two high price bands a month then fill the rest of the dates with usally equally as good but a better priced bands you find a nice balance. But that is just my opinion.
Todd
Silver Sunday

[ASB10]

As a resident from Northwestern PA, Becky, I can offer my own little insight. Bands around this area tend to charge more money than bands from central or southern portions of the state, don't ask me why, it just happens that way. When my band plays in Northwestern PA (many times in your very same area Becky...which seems to be a very high paying area which is bad for you) we make much more than shows in Altoona, Johnstown, or even Pittsburgh. The trick is to find bands that people will go to see that won't cut you up front for a high fee, i.e. bands that haven't been around for awhile or ones that aren't completely full of themselves. You can book that high priced band, but it's equally their responsibility to try to get some people in the door, so working out a guarantee with some bonuses from the door is always a good idea. When booking a big name band, be sure it's one that the people in your area have heard of, or else they are on the same playing field as everyone else. Bands have to prove that they can draw before they can expect a great payday, everyone is out to make money, but let's face it, bar owners control the money and they get their cut first, so you have to prove that you can actually help them in order for them to help you. Just because such and such a band is huge in Altoona or State College doesn't necessarily mean that anyone will give a damn about them in DuBois (Falls Creek correct???). You have to book who will be the best fit for your bar, your patrons, and you yourself. Good luck, I know that there are a lot of bars in that area that have live music regularly, and I hope you succeed, and you are really looking for the right advice.
Tyson
Third Standard

[tonefight]

Truthfully I like when a place offers $100 plus the door, we have one place that pays $175 plus the door ( thats usually works out good ). All the bands get the same deal, If you wanna make money promote and bring a crowd. I'm not a good buisness man so I don't usually end up with a good flat rate, guess I'm too easy. I would actually rather leave knowing we earned $300 dollars than play to 40 people and charge the owner $600 bucks. But most people aren't like that. On the other hand I don't like getting paid $300 when 150 people come in at $4 a head and pay $2.75 a bottle

The door can be a bad thing in a run down club that noone cares to go to but I just kinda avoid them. Its also a little tough since alot of our friends and people who like our era of music will more than likely not travel to different clubs. They seem to catch us when we go to "their" local / favorite bar. That makes us work a place a few times to get to know the locals each place.

Only my opinion but..... I've seen alot of places quit having entertainment noting poor crowds but...... they had poor consistency, I really think you must provide every weekend a quality band so your customers know they can show up to a good band. Not a band this week, Dj next, karaoke the following week followed by a sucky band then comes a good band and nobody shows. I also feel that you should decide what type of bands you would like to host, I also think the music style should be consistent. if you're gonna have heavy bands stick with it. classic rock ? stick with that. party bands? stick with that.

Once again , only an opinion.

P.S. The band must get free Beer, at least drafts !!!!!

[Brian of the Clan Plush]

This might rub some folks the wrong way, but if you're trying to bring in new bands that haven't played in the area before, check their resume and make sure they're playing other places more than a couple times. Don't risk your business trying to be a pal to every garage band - at least not on your big money nights (probably fri and sat). And don't trust demos. Any high school kid with a little cash can record a decent demo, and I've seen lots of great musicians without the stage presence to keep a crowd. That said, good bands don't have to cost a lot of money. A reasonable gaurantee against the door is $50-75 per band member, depending on how far the band is driving. If you can get to the point where you have in-house sound, bands should be willing to play for less or drive further to get to your bar. If you're working with a lot of new bands, you should ask the new bands to open for bands you know bring a crowd to your bar - you draw the crowd with a band they know, and introduce them to the new meat while they're there. Also make sure your distributors and spirits reps are giving you all the schwag they can spare...its amazing how some stupid 99 cent Miller keychain or glow-in -the-dark baracelet will make someone's night and make them want to be at your club every weekend. Finally, shop around to see whats the best bang for your advertising buck in your area....is it print, radio, public access TV? Here in State College, I can put a banner ad on the local TV information/news/weather station for $40 and hit 50,000 viewers for 24 hours. There may be something similar in your area....don't be afraid to ask your bar patrons to tell you where they look before making their weekend plans. I wish you all the luck in the world....if all bar owners were like you I wouldn't need all this alka-seltzer and valium

[bassist_25]

Only my opinion but..... I've seen alot of places quit having entertainment noting poor crowds but...... they had poor consistency, I really think you must provide every weekend a quality band so your customers know they can show up to a good band. Not a band this week, Dj next, karaoke the following week followed by a sucky band then comes a good band and nobody shows.

Bingo!!!!

I've seen clubs flounder, because they weren't booking consistent quality. I have to sympathize with the clubowners on that one though. Unless you've seen the band, know their reputation, or have a demo, you don't know if you're booking a group of accomplished musicians or some garage band that spends 6 hours of practice time trying to nail a White Stripes tune (and the ametuer level groups greatly outnumbers the accomplished, professional groups).

Also, the relationship between bands and clubs is a two way street. The clubowners who realize this are the ones that have good rapport with the musicians. Bad news travels fast in this industry, and all it takes is one club to put the screws to a band and then that bar's black-balled for years to come. (do a little research on an unmentionable club that stiffed my current band on one faithful Halloween night).

Either way, operating a club is a rough business, much like playing music. There's a lot of bullshit in this industry. Even though I'm only 22 I've heard it all from other musicians: "We have major label interest", "We are playing these corporate gigs where we make $1,500 a night", "We have a lot of contacts", "Our guitar player has a degree from Berkley (even though he still can't play worth a damn". I'm sure the amount of bullshit that the average club owner hears is insane. No band, no matter how big their following is, should expect to walk into a new club and be able to demand $1,000. It just doesn't work that way. And anyone who thinks otherwise has bigger delusions than Gene Simmons.

Thanks for supporting live music. We the recent PLCB bullshit and what-not, the music community needs all of the friends it can get.

[Banned]

Where you are located you have 7 or 8 bars that hve bands fairly regularly on friday and/or saturday nights. One problem I see is that you can go to 6 out of 7 of those bars on anygiven night and hear the same exact songs being played. Try to do something different. Most people are more likely to drive alittle farther to see something different from what's playin down the street. It's at least more of an option than "do I drive 10 min or 10 miles to hear the same music?" I personally think you should try to dedicate a night or 2 a month to origanal music. There way too many bands playing in your area that play the same old cover songs that other than the singer the you can swap band members and no one would know. The few places around u that have tried it either didn't really give it a chance to see if it could work, or they otherwise screwed it up through their own missmanagement. Even if you try it on a thursday or friday to see how it goes, leave saturday for the bands you know will draw. There are people that appritiate bands that can write their own music and not have to throw it between 2 covers just so someone will listen too it. Another thing I would try to do (and i doubte there will be any arguements to this) is cater towards women. It don't matter who the band is, if u can get 50 girls, there will be 150 or 200 guys. I'm not sayin have complementary tampon dispencers by the napkins on the bar, but maybe try having a "lady's night" with drink specials, or something that will tempt more women to come there. Under no circumstances would i ever garentee a band over $500 unless they have proven they will draw the people to cover it. I know of a few bands from all over the state askin for a $900 or $1000 garentee. At best I would garentee sound would be paid for and the band gets what's left from the door. Maybe some gas $$ ontop of sound if the door doesn't cover it. 200 people at $5 a head is alot to have to count on to break even at the door where u are. As far as advertising, the more the better, and it benefits both the band and the bar to have more people so you gotta work together as much as u can on that. As long as you put it up on your sign and put a couple of flyers up you've done your share. But radio, newspaper ads, etc. do help alot and in most cases they offer packages that are reletively affordable.

[RobTheDrummer]

Point Blank...your band has to entertain!!! That's what we get paid to do. If you are good at it, then shit, people might come back!!! You gotta start somewhere though...pay your dues. I've heard that phrase a lot! Practice hard and entertain, friends!!!! It's all about building that reputation where the owner of the estblishment is happy and people dig it. I know all about getting paid squat, you gotta press on and good things will happen in the end!

And yes...bring out the ladies!

[becky]

ok here is what we do as of right now, free draft for the band is a rule not a request!!! if you only drink bottled beer we work something out to satisfy us both! we have 2 saturdays that are for heavy metal only. the other saturdays are for covers and rock bands. for the fridays we decided to try to hit the average 35 to 50 age range with the bands we booked so far, which personally I think we did it backwards. all the tits are out on fridays and the boys with the boners are following like puppies after a treat and get this, all to go see a fuc@#%! DJ!!! I refuse to have fake music, so we are going to be readjusting our friday nites coming up soon to some sort of dance/rock music. decision made! thats what they like and thats what they will get. I have 200 paid ads on a radio station that I take full advantage of for every band that is booked here. I can fit up to 300 people in this place so its not small, the parking lot is average but we have 2 more across the street that we can use, and for the band and certain "special" people we have private parking. there are two other places around here that are really hard on bands (90% of the time you do not get paid or they skim the door $$) we pay out 100% of the door to the band no matter what the amount collected! so if you have a large enough following you should never worry about what amount is collected correct? but I also do not fantasize about people traveling from altoona or johnstown to follow you here, although I travel there quite a bit to just blow off steam and party. I have also talked to others that actually want to support the music and will be meeting with paxposure this week to go over a couple of ideas that I have for everyone. and one more thing and tell me if I am wrong, a band with a sponsor (like jager) does not mean anything to a bar owner if you cannot bring in a crowd. if the jager girls are following you, maybe, but truthfully it does not help me at all. what I am saying is, a few free t-shirts and some beads are not going to guarantee anything. if jager thinks you are good enough to sponsor you, then they should help pay for you to play and travel if you are promoting them in return. I want to talk to the people in charge of the jager music tour and get some shit straight, tell me what you get out of it? if I had it right now, you bet your ass I would attatch my name to a couple of house bands and send them on their way to tour around pa and promote my name, and in return, not only will they get to split the cover charge from the door amongst themselves but they would get, gas $, food $, and hotel rooms and what would I get out of it you ask, more customers knocking on my door. just like jager is getting from you. ok, this is getting really long so I will start a new one cuz I am really on a roll now!!!

[Punkinhead]

Honestly, if a band doesn't draw well, then they aren't worth more than $100-$150 plus the door in this area.

If they do draw you 150-200 people consistently, then that's the time to pay them $500. Of course better bands are going to want more money. You need to see if they will take something less than they want to even see if they draw and make it clear to them that if they draw well for you, you'll get them what they want as far as $$$$.

[ZappasXWife]

One problem I see is that you can go to 6 out of 7 of those bars on anygiven night and hear the same exact songs being played. Try to do something different. Most people are more likely to drive alittle farther to see something different from what's playin down the street.

Good advice, I agree with that...

cater towards women. It don't matter who the band is, if u can get 50 girls, there will be 150 or 200 guys.

Good advice, agree with that too.
BUT, not to complicate things but only adding as an interesting sidenote...its too bad this great advice contradicts each other. Have mentioned on this board before that I am in the minority among women in that I don't want to hear Brown-Eyed Girl every time I see a band. Unfortunately, its the women, your desired fan base, that usually WANT to hear the same old same old. Sorry if I have offended any other intelligent women out there with some taste, I do know you're out there somewhere!

[becky]

who is to say what band is any better than another? if they all draw 100 to 150 people what makes anyone think they are any better or are worth more? by the # of bookings? if a band draws the same amount of peeps, but does not have the same amount of gigs, it is called poor management, not better playing or better music. just because a band plays more often does not mean they are better, it means they are more determined and willing to work harder and that is a band I want to see! and just because you get booked more often and you are popular you raise your fee, to be honest, that is why it is harder to get booked in this area. I am not being rude, just honest. for an expensive band I would have to raise the cover charge just to pay you and I can't do that at $2 a bottle. it's tough right now, people are broke.

[Brian of the Clan Plush]

like I said before, you shouldn't have to pay alot to get a quality band...a $75 per band member gaurantee against the door for a 4-member band is only $300, and only requires 100 people through the door at $3 a head to break even. I know all those trying to make a living at this (i.e. not having a day job) are hating me for saying this, but in my opinion getting paid $75 for 3 or 4 hours of singing and playing is just fine by me. We all put alot of time and energy into perfecting our craft, and gear is expensive, and certainly there is a value to our talents, but lets face it...most of us don't do this to get rich, we do it 'cause its REALLY fun. The bottom line here is if bands treat bar managers with respect and bar managers treat bands with respect, its not hard to strike a deal where everyone comes away happy.

one last thing....I'd gladly trade free beer for being paid in cash and not getting a 1099 at the end of the year.

[JayBird]

Becky - very correct - what make a band that pulls 200+ people better than a band who only pulls 100. Trust me...my weekends are traveling with bands or going to see bands. I've seen tons of "agency" bands that sucks ass, but they still get paid $1500 on a Saturday even if they only pull 50 people. In my opinion, contracts blow, because they only screw the bar owners and hold them to paying huge bucks for a shitty crowd. My other opinion - stay away from agency bands. Ask around, you'll see who I mean. There have been quite a few bars go out because of one agency in particular.

I saw the Jager comment and this is what they do for us. We got (for free) three options to choose. These were the options that we went with...a full color Jager banner with websites posted, band name and jager bottle, etc on it. it measures 8 feet x 4 feet. Our second option we choose was 300 free Jager/LL shirts. Our last option was 1000, 5-song cd samplers of original music from Lost Ledny. Jager does cd art work on the back sleeve and we create original art work on the front of the sleeve. So in a way we do get paid by Jager. We sale out Jager shirts for only $5 per shirt...if we want we throw them out for free. When our cds get done, we have talked about selling them for $3 per cd. If we didn't have this merch we wouldn't have that extra money. Down the line as we help sale more Jager, we'll get more free stuff and hopefully get to jump on board the Jager tour. People do like free stuff and it does help the bar once people catch wind about a sponsored band and free swag. We average about 5-6 bottles of Jager being sold at each shows. 25 shots at a $4.00 shot price = about $500-$600 in Jager shots alone. Those are $20 a bottle your cost...So you'll make about $400 from Jager alone after your expense. We've sold as much as 9 bottles at one show at a $4.50 per drink cost. We push the product like it's gold...the better we do, the better you do, in return the better we'll eventually do, in return the more Jager likes us, in return the better we do again, and so on.

[ERiC_AiXeLsyD]

Damn. The Dion is happy to get gas money, ... anything on top o' that is beyond awesome.

[songsmith]

I'd drop my cover by a buck or so and make a REALLY big deal about it, how you care about your patrons and want to save them money... it's price-point retailing. Actually, $5 covers here are pretty rare, and where I'm from, Huntingdon County, people wouldn't pay that if Elvis was playing and Jesus was sitting in. I've consistently seen people turn and walk away from a $4 cover, and go to a bar with no band. I think it's psychological... it's not that much money, really, it's the idea of the thing.
As far as paying your bands $500, If I were you, I'd need to see 250 people through the door minimum. Have you ever averaged your sales versus attendance? Take your total alcohol and food sales and door charge, and divide that number by the number of people who showed up, including those who were there free (maybe they were there before the door charge took effect, or on the guest list, or whatever). That resulting number is how much each person spent at your club on average. I've heard from clubowners that under $7.00 average is bad, bad news.
I'm happy that you're such a music fan, but the point is not the music. The point, for you, is to sell beer. If your bands don't realize that, they are deluding themselves, or just plain clueless. You as clubowner will have to dance the fine line between the talent's egos and your need to make profit, and that ain't an easy dance, because the bands work hard to be good, and you work hard to be successful. I get the idea you get a bit starstruck by these musicians, and believe me, there's no reason for that... when they are in your club, YOU ARE THE BOSS. If you say turn it down, they have to do that. If you say they cost too much, they cost too much. Musicians are people. People who want to play music, and will work with you on what you need. If they don't, hire someone else... tomorrow someone else will call looking for a booking.
This is really cool, watching someone get in on the groundfloor and building their club, and again I wish you luck!---->JMS

[Ron]

Zappa's Wife hit the nail on the head. It seems these days that a lot of young women from 21 to 25 are turning their backs to live music.

It's a sad state because everyone knows that young women are the target audience for club owners, but less and less women in that age group have grown to appreciate live music, especially original material.

At times it's like owning a fine restaurant, and trying to get teenagers to pay for a good meal when there is a McDonalds across the street.

[Banned]

Zappa's Wife hit the nail on the head. It seems these days that a lot of young women from 21 to 25 are turning their backs to live music.

That does seem true, but I think alot of that, at least in the dubois area, goes back to what i said before. If you look at the majority of bands playing around dubois they all play the same 70's and 80's rock songs with maybe a few 90's thrown in. Alot of people in the age group (girls and guys both) aren't as likely to go listen to the same bands their parents are goin to see. Ithink it's due in large part to the bar owners around here tend to cater more to their friends and people of their own age group that wanna listen to the stuff that is on the local classic rock staion, or more and more the oldies station. Even when they do have something different they still aim their advertising at the same clasic rock stations that the younger crowd either isn't listening to or is doin their best to ignore. Advertising a metal band to a classic rock crowd will only get you so far. I personaly have seen, and Becky I know your sister has to, a few area places have bands that play newer rock/hard rock/metal that have had great turnouts, but they don't seem to stick with it. They have a band that does draw a good sized younger crown and then the next week it's back to (as Zappa's Wife put it) brown eyed girl.
I think what Songsmith said about maybe lowering the door charge is also a good idea. You may not want to do it with every band, but if nothin else the bands you think could do well they just need some time to build a following, don't offer them a big garentee, lower the door charge and alot more people will come. Just don't do like one of your closest and biggest compeditors did to my band and tell the band you'll give them x amount of dollars to play, no cover charge to try and build a following there, advertise it as no cover for 2 months then on the night of the show change your mind and start charging a $5 cover (and try to hide that fact from the band) and at the end of the night try to get out of paying the band. All that accomplished was pissing off alot of fans that turned around and left (alot of whome ended up going to who cares...lol) and majorly pissing off the band.

[Ron]

If you look at the majority of bands playing around dubois they all play the same 70's and 80's rock songs with maybe a few 90's thrown in. Alot of people in the age group (girls and guys both) aren't as likely to go listen to the same bands their parents are goin to see.

I think that this isn't really the cause, but the effect. We all know that one of the primary objectives is to draw women to a club, so what do these women want to do when they go to a club? A lot of them simply want to dance.

It all boils down to the old "Play something we can dance to" phenomenon, which isn't very friendly to bands that play non-dance oriented material... especially original material. It is, however, very friendly to our nemesis... the DJ.

A lot of this is just a social thing, the popularity of live music will ebb and flow like everything else, but I know very few women who are willing to go out of their way to see an unknown original act unless they personally know somebody in the band. That is another important key. The bands with members who are personable, outgoing, and go out of their way to meet and greet new fans during the course of the night are going to be better at attracting people to a club. A band that has more introverted members, no matter how talented they are, just isn't going to do as well.

In this day and age, less and less club attendees seem interested in music for the sake of the music itself. They seem most interested in social interaction and gettin' a buzz on. The music is becoming secondary.

[DMFJ03]

In this day and age, less and less club attendees seem interested in music for the sake of the music itself. They seem most interested in social interaction and gettin' a buzz on. The music is becoming secondary.

Ain't that the truth, Ron.

There are few people like us out there, that will go to see a band play for the love of the music...and that's sad. Myself, personally, I like meeting the bands and rubbing elbows as I am sure most of us here like to do too.

::Le sigh:: Dammit, that's it, for my next project...I am going to do the longest version of Dancing Queen this world has ever seen!

.....not really.

[Jim Price]

Ron said:

In this day and age, less and less club attendees seem interested in music for the sake of the music itself. They seem most interested in social interaction and gettin' a buzz on. The music is becoming secondary.

This is true.

Keep in mind, folks like us who visit and post on Rockpage - musicians and genuine music fans - are in the minority. We actually notice and care enough about music to talk about and post about it. Most of the people who go out on a Saturday night ARE there for the socializing, dancing and drinking. Unless they really like (or hate) a band they see, many probably don't even remember the name of who they see on a given night. The music is the background, and for many people, the more familiar the music, the better. That's why it is an uphill battle for bands vs. deejays, and especially bands doing original - and largely unfamiliar - music.

And most people, unfortunately, do not know about Rockpage, or have had any motivation to come visit and discover it.

This is why is it so important to deliver a good product in terms of music and performance (and, if you are a club owner, a comfortable environment and an enjoyable experience at your venue), and to continually promote and market what you are doing. It's about getting people out to see you, and then getting them to remember you and come back again. And if you succeed and succeed often, the money takes care of itself in the long run.

[RobTheDrummer]

J.P. wrote

This is why is it so important to deliver a good product in terms of music and performance (and, if you are a club owner, a comfortable environment and an enjoyable experience at your venue), and to continually promote and market what you are doing. It's about getting people out to see you, and then getting them to remember you and come back again. And if you succeed and succeed often, the money takes care of itself in the long run.

Aboslutely. That's a very good point. It's tough at first, especially to pay for production costs which can be a lot(for the clubs without production). But, in the long run, people will notice that you are a good band and will remember you. If people see a great production, they will definitely remember you based on that. If they have a good time on top of the production....that's even better!

[Hannibal]

A sidebar about DEMOS.

Just a thought for the club owners. If a band wants booked and presents a demo, is it a studio demo or a live demo from a gig? As mentioned, it's relatively cheap to put together a studio demo that sounds great. If you have some good recoedings from your live gigs that you can pick your better material, and put that in a demo. That way, the club owner hears your live sound, and can pick up on how the crowd responds to your musicianship and your crowd response to the band. That will tell a lot more than any studio tape.

my $.03 worth