National debt in real time..

[f.sciarrillo]

http://www.usdebtclock.org/ <- Make sure you have the tissues while you read it. It is truly a pretty sad thing to look at.

[Banned]

That is current, up to date debt.

When you add future unfunded liabilities for Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security, it jumps to $61 TRILLION.

When you add in unfunded future federal pensions it then jumps to $116 TRILLION.

Sorry for spewing so much hate on the federal debt Bill.

[f.sciarrillo]

No hate there, Joe.

[Banned]

Just Michigan alone has now hit $4 Trillion in unfunded state pensions. I am trying to find the total for all the states. What is going to happen when all these state workers retire and go to get their pensions, and the state says, sorry, we are $4 Trillion short?

http://www.mackinac.org/15156

I know, more hating.

[songsmith]

Just Michigan alone has now hit $4 Trillion in unfunded state pensions. I am trying to find the total for all the states. What is going to happen when all these state workers retire and go to get their pensions, and the state says, sorry, we are $4 Trillion short?

http://www.mackinac.org/15156

I know, more hating.

More stories from that very non-partisan website:

Seven Principles of Sound Public Policy
Great Myths of the Great Depression
Restoring Our Heritage of Property Rights
With Clear Eyes, Sincere Hearts and Open Minds: A Second Look at Public Education in America

Click on them, they're not opinion pieces at all. Straight fact.

[Banned]

Just Michigan alone has now hit $4 Trillion in unfunded state pensions. I am trying to find the total for all the states. What is going to happen when all these state workers retire and go to get their pensions, and the state says, sorry, we are $4 Trillion short?

http://www.mackinac.org/15156

I know, more hating.

More stories from that very non-partisan website:

Seven Principles of Sound Public Policy
Great Myths of the Great Depression
Restoring Our Heritage of Property Rights
With Clear Eyes, Sincere Hearts and Open Minds: A Second Look at Public Education in America

Click on them, they're not opinion pieces at all. Straight fact.

Can you prove that Mighigan data is false?

[songsmith]

Given your recent criticism of my facts, I believe the onus is on you.

[Banned]

Given your recent criticism of my facts, I believe the onus is on you.

You wrote "more stories from a very non-partisan website". Prove they are stories. How do you know that the Macinac.org site is very non partisan? Do you have much experience with it? Then it would be easy to show how this article is a "story".

[f.sciarrillo]

Either way you look at it. This country owes way too much money. It is only getting worse. I wish there was a way to correct it all right now. Too bad people can't quit fighting over how to do it and just compromise. That isn't hard to do.

[lector]

I am starting the offical "it's all Bush's fault" clock now....This shouldnt take long.

[f.sciarrillo]

I am starting the offical "it's all Bush's fault" clock now....This shouldnt take long.

There are people who still blame Bush for it. Which is a shame.

[lonewolf]

After 5 weeks of waning stocks, corporate bonds are beginning to break down now. I have decided to sell my holdings into any rally from this point and go 90% cash. There are too many possible negatives going on with the end of QE2 and the wrangling over the budget ceiling. The last time I did this was in July-August of 2008.

QE2 meant that the Fed printed $600 billion so that it could buy enough US treasury bonds over the past 8 months to keep interest rates low. That is finished at the end of June and we better hope that treasury doesn't wake up one day and find out that nobody wants to buy our notes, bills & bonds at 0-3% anymore...

Remember the debt brick wall I was talking about?

[Banned]

After 5 weeks of waning stocks, corporate bonds are beginning to break down now. I have decided to sell my holdings into any rally from this point and go 90% cash. There are too many possible negatives going on with the end of QE2 and the wrangling over the budget ceiling. The last time I did this was in July-August of 2008.

QE2 meant that the Fed printed $600 billion so that it could buy enough US treasury bonds over the past 8 months to keep interest rates low. That is finished at the end of June and we better hope that treasury doesn't wake up one day and find out that nobody wants to buy our notes, bills & bonds at 0-3% anymore...

Remember the debt brick wall I was talking about?

Johnny posted:
The dow closed at 12,124.36 today. The peak during Reagan's tenure: 2722.22. per:
http://stockcharts.com/freecharts/histo ... 02000.html

The low Dow score for Obama came shortly after he took office, amid the worst recession since the Great Depression: 7062.93 per:
http://stockcharts.com/freecharts/histo ... a2000.html

Now, as I claimed earlier, today's ending Dow was 12,124.36 This is an increase of 5061.43 points, or about 72% higher than it was at it's low. There was even a rally today.
Isn't that good enough for Joe? Business has PLENTY of money. We don't.
_________________

Jeff, the stock market is awesome, thanks to the anointed O.

[Naga]

I'm just sick of seeing so many who are barely affording survival while people like Gates live on neverending piles of money, and watch bill and tax collectors wait at many peoples' door, practically ready to hit those people like a bullet of a Dback waiting to bust down the O line. It's horrible, really. So many people right now aren't making it, or are barely making it, and all the while, there are so many rich out there, thinking "Should I get the Yacht, or brand new Mazeratti this month?"

I realize Soviet Russia kicked themselves a good ways to the moon, but I think the whole "leveling the paycheck field" may have had a good idea, if in a different grasp. Big business wants too much money. Big Brother Gov't wants too much money. Me? My friends? You guys and gals? I think all the bunch of us little people want is to know we've got enough money to survive for the month!

Seriously, why ARE we paying so much per gas? Why can't we just bleed some of the rich to freeze our debt? Why not take some of the higher money, that's just going to sit around in a bank anyway? We're so far in debt that if any debtor country decided tomorrow that they don't want to wait any more, the only thing that COULD save us is if the rich decided to bail us out! And I'm not even sure, given the way we're just diving into cost, that they'll be able to do it either!

Not to sound too cynical, but what do we do? Where do we intend on going, and why can't we just figure it out, rather than wasting our time watching the numbers soar?

[songsmith]

Jeff, the stock market is awesome, thanks to the anointed O.

To quote Joe (numerous times): Show me where I said that.
I did point out that the stock market is doing well, and proved it, but intimated only that Obama is in office during the rally. This was in response to Joe's insinuation that Obama caused the drop in the Dow, which is untrue.

You were debunked once again, and this is the reply of someone who has no further argument, but hasn't yet figured out that he should toddle off to those fringe websites he loves so much.

[Banned]

I'm just sick of seeing so many who are barely affording survival while people like Gates live on neverending piles of money, and watch bill and tax collectors wait at many peoples' door, practically ready to hit those people like a bullet of a Dback waiting to bust down the O line. It's horrible, really. So many people right now aren't making it, or are barely making it, and all the while, there are so many rich out there, thinking "Should I get the Yacht, or brand new Mazeratti this month?"

I realize Soviet Russia kicked themselves a good ways to the moon, but I think the whole "leveling the paycheck field" may have had a good idea, if in a different grasp. Big business wants too much money. Big Brother Gov't wants too much money. Me? My friends? You guys and gals? I think all the bunch of us little people want is to know we've got enough money to survive for the month!

Seriously, why ARE we paying so much per gas? Why can't we just bleed some of the rich to freeze our debt? Why not take some of the higher money, that's just going to sit around in a bank anyway? We're so far in debt that if any debtor country decided tomorrow that they don't want to wait any more, the only thing that COULD save us is if the rich decided to bail us out! And I'm not even sure, given the way we're just diving into cost, that they'll be able to do it either!

Not to sound too cynical, but what do we do? Where do we intend on going, and why can't we just figure it out, rather than wasting our time watching the numbers soar?

Should we kill the rich to bleed them or just deep wounds? If the rich were taxed at 100%, it would run this bloated government for 4 months. Not enough money to even think of paying off the debt. This government has got to stop wasting money we don't have.

[Banned]

Yeah, Johnny, in your world, you are the smartest person you know. The market is great. The economy is great. There is no debt. There is no deficit. O pulled all the troops out of the Middle East.

[f.sciarrillo]

Yeah, taking all the rich peoples money will fix everything. That is just another person crying because the rich work for what they have. Jealousy is all it is. Too many people don't want to work for it. They just stand in line waiting for the hand out.

There is one thing I do agree with the foreigners on. That is that this country has a lot of lazy and selfish people in it.

Back to the topic. If people would listen to others opinion and compromise, you would fix so many things so fast. Too many people want it their way or no way.

[Naga]

Frank, I'm not the kind of person to sit on my ass. And moreover, I don't feel we should completely bleed anyone dry. I'm definitely not saying the rich didn't earn their money... You have to start somewhere to get to somewhere. All I'm saying is, it's disgusting to me that some people live with no reality of what the devistation of the economy is about, not needing to care about it, because they have more than enough money to live off of their coffers for ages, and within 5 miles of people like that, there are other people who are starving. Of COURSE doing something like this isn't a universal solvent

But then again, I'm the kind of person who thinks salaries of a CEO are more deserved by the guy fighting to save others' lives. I suppose for that, I'm the jealous, immature, "want to live off welfare" kind of person you're apparently pondering me to be. No, I have a job. It's not making me a great deal of money, but it's work, it's honest, and even if I'm told by half my coworkers who don't do the same job that it deserves more, I realize I make what money it takes

There are many programs we have running that constantly consume money in the US, and many politicians that just throw money around like it's a party favor. Yes, we need to stop gov't overkilling our economy, and yes, we need to figure out solutions to these programs, and turn them around. What I was saying isn't the dead-all solution, more like "bandaid covers the bullet hole". But it is amazing how much richer the rich have become coming into this recession, and how much poorer the poor have been rendered. Most of that extra pool of money is going to do little for a faltering US

[bassist_25]

That is just another person crying because the rich work for what they have. Jealousy is all it is. Too many people don't want to work for it. They just stand in line waiting for the hand out.

Wealth is created through investment of capital, not through wages and salaries. On its face, capital ownership and investment has absolutely nothing to do with "hard work." I'm not anti-rich nor am I a Marxist, but if you've been on this rock called Earth for this long and still believe the metanarrative that wealth is the logarithm of hard work, then I don't know what to tell you.

[songsmith]

Yeah, Johnny, in your world, you are the smartest person you know. The market is great. The economy is great. There is no debt. There is no deficit. O pulled all the troops out of the Middle East.

Ah, argumentum ad absurdum, one of my favorite logical fallacies. If I say the market's doing fine, then I must think there's no deficit.
You're busted, mister. You have nowhere to turn in this argument, but by all means, please continue.
I don't have to be the smartest person. I'm correct.

[f.sciarrillo]

Frank, I'm not the kind of person to sit on my ass. And moreover, I don't feel we should completely bleed anyone dry. I'm definitely not saying the rich didn't earn their money... You have to start somewhere to get to somewhere. All I'm saying is, it's disgusting to me that some people live with no reality of what the devistation of the economy is about, not needing to care about it, because they have more than enough money to live off of their coffers for ages, and within 5 miles of people like that, there are other people who are starving. Of COURSE doing something like this isn't a universal solvent

But then again, I'm the kind of person who thinks salaries of a CEO are more deserved by the guy fighting to save others' lives. I suppose for that, I'm the jealous, immature, "want to live off welfare" kind of person you're apparently pondering me to be. No, I have a job. It's not making me a great deal of money, but it's work, it's honest, and even if I'm told by half my coworkers who don't do the same job that it deserves more, I realize I make what money it takes

There are many programs we have running that constantly consume money in the US, and many politicians that just throw money around like it's a party favor. Yes, we need to stop gov't overkilling our economy, and yes, we need to figure out solutions to these programs, and turn them around. What I was saying isn't the dead-all solution, more like "bandaid covers the bullet hole". But it is amazing how much richer the rich have become coming into this recession, and how much poorer the poor have been rendered. Most of that extra pool of money is going to do little for a faltering US

I wasn't referring to you as being one of the people I referred to. I am sorry if it seemed like I was. I was simply saying that there are too many that are like that. I'm the type of person who doesn't look for hand outs and I like to work for what I got. I feel better about myself when I do. I am also the type of person who looks at someone working and think, there is someone to be proud of. It doesn't matter what job you have, as long as you are doing your share and working for the same goal. The American Dream is a great one and everyone should be wanting to reach it. Not just sit there and wait for it to come to them.

That is just another person crying because the rich work for what they have. Jealousy is all it is. Too many people don't want to work for it. They just stand in line waiting for the hand out.

Wealth is created through investment of capital, not through wages and salaries. On its face, capital ownership and investment has absolutely nothing to do with "hard work." I'm not anti-rich nor am I a Marxist, but if you've been on this rock called Earth for this long and still believe the metanarrative that wealth is the logarithm of hard work, then I don't know what to tell you.

So what you are saying is that the football player who gets payed 10 million a year is making his money from investing? or the CEO who gets a 1 million dollar bonus is investing? What about the movie stars, music stars, or other entertainers? Are they all making money from investing? I could swear they are they all wages and salaries? Then, you know me, I could be completely wrong.

[bassist_25]

II am also the type of person who looks at someone working and think, there is someone to be proud of. It doesn't matter what job you have, as long as you are doing your share and working for the same goal. The American Dream is a great one and everyone should be wanting to reach it. Not just sit there and wait for it to come to them.

Unfortunately, a lot of people don't share your sentiment and only value others based upon how large their bank accounts are, regardless of how that money was made.

[f.sciarrillo]

II am also the type of person who looks at someone working and think, there is someone to be proud of. It doesn't matter what job you have, as long as you are doing your share and working for the same goal. The American Dream is a great one and everyone should be wanting to reach it. Not just sit there and wait for it to come to them.

Unfortunately, a lot of people don't share your sentiment and only value others based upon how large their bank accounts are, regardless of how that money was made.

I know, and I wish more would think that way. This world would be so much better if they did.

[Banned]

I did point out that the stock market is doing well, and proved it, but intimated only that Obama is in office during the rally.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/ ... 5620110610

It states:

"The Nasdaq Composite erased its gains for the year, while the Dow and the S&P 500 were on track for a sixth straight week of losses. A string of sub-par U.S. economic data in the past few weeks has turned investors away from equities."

So, here is what Johnny called a stock market doing well----

The Nasdaq has lost all of its gains since the beginning of the year. The Dow and S&P 500 have had 6 weeks in decline, not seen since the Great Depression. And, oh yeah, the Dow closed under the 12,000 point level.

I would hate to see what he could call doing terrible. But, he has to say this ridiculous crap, he has to protect Marxism and the big O.