Bar owners just don't get it

[sstuckey]

It's bad enough the PLCB has to be a royal pain in the ass when it comes to bands. But now that I'm no longer in the scene I can voice my opinion on bar owners as well. Some of them were GREAT to work with. Big John for instance was PHENOMONAL to local bands in the way he treated them. He was fair to everyone and gave everybody a chance to prove their worth. I miss Big John and I miss Peter C's. He always paid us what he said he would without as much as a whimper if the night didn't go so well, or the turn-out was less than stellar. In fact when we went to L.A. the guy threw us a "good luck Dragon Fire" going away party, and even chucked in a cash bonus to help us out while we were there. I think I speak for all of us when I say thank you Big John for your contributions and for taking us under your wing. We miss you dearly!!!!

Then there is the flip side of that coin. I don't know if my post will get removed for naming names, so I'll let you all put two and two together. There is one owner in particular in Altoona, that is an absolute douche bag to work with. No matter how many people you got in his bar, when it came time to pay, you ALWAYS got a song and dance. He'd rip you off on the door, short-change you, and promise you X amount of dollars and then pay you half of that at the end of the night, stating some lame f'in excuse. I can think of one night in particular "our first night playing this place" and at the end of the night he handed us $75!!! 5 guys....75 bucks....3 hours. That's $5 an hour per person!!! And that 3 hours is just 'playing' time. Bar owners don't take into consideration the gas money, tear down, set-up, tear down again time...so add a minimum of 1 more hour to that. That night I made $3.75 an hour. He had well over 100 people in his bar that night, of which he charged $5 at the door. So of the $500+ he got at the door we got $75 of it. I'd be low-balling to say those people spent $10 a person that night, but for the sake of the discussion, we'll go with that figure. That's $1000+$500 of which he gave us $75. REDICULOUS!!!! I'd like to think we were solely responsible for 75% of those people coming to his bar to see US....not him...not his bar......they came for US!!

Bar owners take a page out of Big John's book and be fair!! We spend years and even decades working on our craft, hours and hours and hours practing, spend thousands of dollars on equipment, and basically gotta deal with ALOT of bullshit along the way. Just be fair and pay the musicians what they are truly worth for what we bring to the table, and remember most of the people in your bar that night are there NOT because they love your drink specials, but because they love the band that is playing that night.

[Craven Sound]

I'll bet this place is just on the outside of town.

[Atomic Jim]

I thought it might be in Juniata where we played for three hours (5 piece band) drove home to Indiana Co. in and ice storm, and were giving $90 for our trouble, less $50 for the sound man, who did less than a stellar job, particularly with the monitors.

We don't play bars anymore either; too late, to smokey; to cheap.

BTW, blew my entire pay at Sheetz on hot dogs and chocolate milk.

[bassist_25]

In my experience, the opinion about a venue owner may be different if you talk to one musician compared to another musician. I think I know who the bar owner is in the original post. I always felt that he's always dealt fairly with us, but I know other people feel differently about their dealings with him. That's fine, and I'm not saying their opinions are invalid. On the other hand, before I joined my current band, they played Peter C's once. I won't get into the details, but my guitarist left being very unimpressed with Peter C's and Big John.

It's no secret that I'm not a big fan of Frank from YP, but I'd venture to say that the bands who get preference at that venue may feel differently than I do.

With all that said, I like most of the live music venue owners around here.

[sstuckey]

No actually i don't think you know who I am talking about. I have yet to hear one good dealing with this particular owner. Not a single one. And I have spoken to many many bands about this.

As far as Peter C's you got what you drew...the door. If you got no one to come then yeah you don't get much money. That's not his fault that's yours. The owner I refer to took a total of $500 at the door and gave us $75 of that. It's my personal opinion a band deserves and earns every single penny brought in at the door. Again people don't pay $5 cover charges because your Budweiser tastes better than everyone else's. They pay $5 because they want to listen to the band playing that night.

[onegunguitar]

It's my personal opinion a band deserves and earns every single penny brought in at the door. Again people don't pay $5 cover charges because your Budweiser tastes better than everyone else's. They pay $5 because they want to listen to the band playing that night.

+1

[bassist_25]

No actually i don't think you know who I am talking about. I have yet to hear one good dealing with this particular owner. Not a single one. And I have spoken to many many bands about this.

Perhaps I don't then. Maybe it's just because I know that one Altoona club owner is controversial and assumed it was him.

As far as Peter C's you got what you drew...the door. If you got no one to come then yeah you don't get much money. That's not his fault that's yours. The owner I refer to took a total of $500 at the door and gave us $75 of that. It's my personal opinion a band deserves and earns every single penny brought in at the door. Again people don't pay $5 cover charges because your Budweiser tastes better than everyone else's. They pay $5 because they want to listen to the band playing that night.

The issue in question wasn't about end-of-night pay. Again, I wasn't a band member then so I'll save my own value judgment; and I wasn't trashing Big John with my post - just giving an example of how people's subjective interpretations of situations and reality may not always line up.

I do agree with you about paying the band. With that said, I'm not a fan of door deals at all (especially if there's the need to hire production involved). I'm not saying that justifies getting screwed on the door either.

P.s. And I think Budweiser has always tasted terrible, no matter where I drank it (sorry, Ronny!).

[Craven Sound]

It's no secret that I'm not a big fan of Frank from YP, but I'd venture to say that the bands who get preference at that venue may feel differently than I do.

I'll never forget the night that I pissed him off by playing Sepultura at soundcheck. He ran over to me demanding I turn it off when I just wanted to listen to the system with some driving music. Dick.

[ToonaRockGuy]

It's no secret that I'm not a big fan of Frank from YP, but I'd venture to say that the bands who get preference at that venue may feel differently than I do.

I'll never forget the night that I pissed him off by playing Sepultura at soundcheck. He ran over to me demanding I turn it off when I just wanted to listen to the system with some driving music. Dick.

I remember doing a gig there with Hair Force One and he made the guys turn their amps down to one. Those who know me know that I am by no means a "tippy-tap" drummer, but that night, I sure was.

[BigJohn]

Thank You Steve ... Jodie and I miss all of You !!!

[sstuckey]

Thank You Steve ... Jodie and I miss all of You !!!

No Big John....we thank you. You gave us a chance when no one else wanted to. Peter C's was easily my favorite place to play in this town!! Crowds were always energetic, and everyone left having had a blast...band included. Man I miss playin that place!!!!

[JackANSI]

No actually i don't think you know who I am talking about. I have yet to hear one good dealing with this particular owner. Not a single one. And I have spoken to many many bands about this.

Why not name names? Would keep people from thinking of the wrong people and might help keep other musicians in the area from getting screwed as bad.

[sstuckey]

No actually i don't think you know who I am talking about. I have yet to hear one good dealing with this particular owner. Not a single one. And I have spoken to many many bands about this.

Why not name names? Would keep people from thinking of the wrong people and might help keep other musicians in the area from getting screwed as bad.

In a word? Slander. But I'd be willing to bet if I took a poll as to who is the WORST bar owner when it comes to bands in Altoona. 90% of you would provide me with the same name I'm referring to.

[Jasaoke]

I'm not afraid to state the obvious:

Everybody knows that Claudio is douche.

Besides, in print it's called "libel", slander is spoken. But that's only if it's malicious or untrue; I don't think that expressing disgust in some elses' childish behavior and breech of verbal contract counts as malicious or defamatory - just stating the facts.

It would ultimately help everyone out if we shed light on bar owners douchebaggery.

*I'd like to apologize to all of the douche manufacturers for assimilating your fine products with the Douchemaster General.

[sstuckey]

And the polling booths have closed

[Jasaoke]

I suppose I crossed a professional boundary there and for THAT I am sorry. I just don't see the point of secrecy if you feel that you've been dealt with unfairly.

If a venue, person or band is not conducting themselves with honor and professionalism, then they need to be held accountable, or at the very least, people should know about it, to help prevent it from happening again.

[songsmith]

I never felt the need to "go there." Sometimes you're better off letting younger less-experienced bands "gain experience." Even if you're right, many won't take your advice, anyway... myself included. You learn a lesson, and don't get stranded out of state somewhere... there are far worse places to get shafted.

[Mysterytrain]

The thing with Claudio is that everything that people rip him about happened about 10 years ago.

He went from a small music venue/bar to a huge music venue/bar THEN back to a small venue/bar. He got pretty cocky for awhile but now he's willing to give almost any band a night of playing. Also, open to holding benefits and special shows.

Have you ever dealt with bands and their drama on a regular basis? Some are very professional but others are immature, lack any kind of self-promoting but expect to be treated like stars. Some can't bring 3 people to the show but want paid hundreds of dollars.

The way I see it... 30 Something offers a huge room, great sound system, some of the best sound guys around (Zilly and Scar), big parking lot, easy off the highway (for travelers), clean and beer prices comparing most places around.

Try to find a venue to rent like his and you'll pay at least $500. This doesn't include clean up costs.

There is no built-in crowd so it's up to bands to promote themselves which I very rarely see from any band. Facebook and Rockpage doesn't count!

We have played shows there and have had about 30 something people turn-out and handed $25-100 at the most. It sucks but then I think our promoting (or lack of...) wasn't as good as it could have been.

In a nutshell... Claudio is and always has been a business man. Music and food sales are what pays his bills. It shouldn't cost him to have a band play when they lack drawing a substantial size crowd.

[Dead34]

I think Mysterytrain hit the nail directly on the head. RtL has played 30 Something a number of times for benefits and paying gigs alike and we've never had an issue. In fact, Claudio has always been 100% honest and treated us very professionally. 30 Something is an excellent venue with a great stage, sound system, AND very good sound engineers (that you don't have to pay for).

I think the overall issue with band/venues is that a lot of people in bands doing the bookings fail to place themselves in the owner's shoes. I say this because this was one of the first lessons I ever learned. Sure, your band thinks they're the best at what they do - and that all the time and effort you put into it is worth a minimum amount of money guaranteed. However, place yourself in the bar-owner's spot - what guarantees can you make him/her? Can you guarantee that a 100 of your friends/fans are gonna come out to see your show that night? Of course not, no one can know for certain what's going to happen on any given night. The only guarantee you can offer them is that you're going to be there to play that night and in the bar business world that means NOTHING! They don't care if you're there playing - they care about paying their bills that month - and to do that, they need people there drinking and eating; the list of available bands/dj's that will play that night if you wont - is endless.

That said, Claudio is the same kind of guy, he is a businessman first! If you go into 30 Something and pack the place, he'll take care of you. If you go into 30 something with your girl friends and the 5 regulars that would've been there regardless of who was playing that night and expect a huge chunk of change at the end - you'll be disappointed and I'm sure that 30 Something isn’t the only venue in Central PA that operates like this. "70% of the people here tonight were here to see us" isnt very effective it the total number of people in the bar is 10.

I mean, to avoid being disappointed, it really all comes down to this: Bands need to EARN their money (and not by just playing their instruments for 3 hrs and/or practicing at home). When I say "EARN," I mean prove to the venue that you have people that will come spend money in their establishment IF/WHEN your band is playing. If that's not an option for your band (financial reasons) then you need to decide between the group what is the LEAST amount of money that you'll play for and then not play anywhere for less.

[sstuckey]

I think Mysterytrain hit the nail directly on the head. RtL has played 30 Something a number of times for benefits and paying gigs alike and we've never had an issue. In fact, Claudio has always been 100% honest and treated us very professionally. 30 Something is an excellent venue with a great stage, sound system, AND very good sound engineers (that you don't have to pay for).

I think the overall issue with band/venues is that a lot of people in bands doing the bookings fail to place themselves in the owner's shoes. I say this because this was one of the first lessons I ever learned. Sure, your band thinks they're the best at what they do - and that all the time and effort you put into it is worth a minimum amount of money guaranteed. However, place yourself in the bar-owner's spot - what guarantees can you make him/her? Can you guarantee that a 100 of your friends/fans are gonna come out to see your show that night? Of course not, no one can know for certain what's going to happen on any given night. The only guarantee you can offer them is that you're going to be there to play that night and in the bar business world that means NOTHING! They don't care if you're there playing - they care about paying their bills that month - and to do that, they need people there drinking and eating; the list of available bands/dj's that will play that night if you wont - is endless.

That said, Claudio is the same kind of guy, he is a businessman first! If you go into 30 Something and pack the place, he'll take care of you. If you go into 30 something with your girl friends and the 5 regulars that would've been there regardless of who was playing that night and expect a huge chunk of change at the end - you'll be disappointed and I'm sure that 30 Something isn’t the only venue in Central PA that operates like this. "70% of the people here tonight were here to see us" isnt very effective it the total number of people in the bar is 10.

I mean, to avoid being disappointed, it really all comes down to this: Bands need to EARN their money (and not by just playing their instruments for 3 hrs and/or practicing at home). When I say "EARN," I mean prove to the venue that you have people that will come spend money in their establishment IF/WHEN your band is playing. If that's not an option for your band (financial reasons) then you need to decide between the group what is the LEAST amount of money that you'll play for and then not play anywhere for less.

\

Well I guess I'm alone in thinking that bands don't get the money they deserve. But I'm sticking to my guns and keeping that opinion. But I would like to point out, that without having named a name there is a common theme (name) that has continuously popped up. Coincidence? I don't think so. But I do find it rather sad that you guys list free food and beer and a good stage/sound equipment as an equalizer for inadequate money. Oh well, I tried.

[Dead34]

[quote]Well I guess I'm alone in thinking that bands don't get the money they deserve. But I'm sticking to my guns and keeping that opinion. But I would like to point out, that without having named a name there is a common theme (name) that has continuously popped up. Coincidence? I don't think so. But I do find it rather sad that you guys list free food and beer and a good stage/sound equipment as an equalizer for inadequate money. Oh well, I tried.[quote]


I'm not totally disagreeing with you - I'm simply reflecting light to the other side of the equation. As far as mentioning names, I only included Claudio's name in my post because 1 person mentioned it in a negative light and I wanted others reading to know that there are also positive reviews/experiences involving that venue.

The fact of the matter is, venues are buisnesses - they exist to make money for themselves. They do not exist to make bands money; they hire bands for their services, which include: playing music and bringing an audience/following to their establishment to spend money.

[Mysterytrain]

These xtranormal flicks are funny as hell...

Band pitching to promoter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V-whd8nVEA

Promoter vs Band:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3fo_lAn ... re=related