Mixing?

[Headbanger83]

e and a buddy jam alot and i just recently got a new bass and he recently changed his sound. We dont sound so good anymore. He "scooped" his amp, he severly lowered the mids and jacked the bass and treble. I was wondering what a good bass tone would be to fill the gaps and make it sound fuller. I was thinking to jack my mids would that be correct. Ive never really delt with mixing and stuff like that so im just looking for a little bit of advice. Thanks

[Merge]

I'm not an expert, but I don't know if you can fill the void he's made with your bass. The guitar is a mid range instrument, and he's cut all of that from his sound. That tone might sound good when playing alone, but it never sounds good when jamming with a bassist or a full band. He needs to add the mids back into his tone. To me, that's the only fix. I'm sure some other members will chime in here, maybe they will have a solution for you.

[songsmith]

I remember reading that when Pantera went to the scooped guitar sound, the bassist got a P-bass and made a frowny-face on his EQ, boosting mids, then completely changed his style and phrasing. I've not played bass in a band for many years, but that makes sense to me.
I also wonder: do people still depend on the mid-scoop sound? I haven't heard much of that in the last several years, but I don't listen to near as much heavy stuff, either, and the stuff I do listen to is mostly older.

[MeYatch]

tell your friend if he wants to play with other people he needs to abandon his bedroom tone.

[Headbanger83]

haha thanks ill definatley try the frowny face thing. and its not a bedroom tone if pantera and i know metallica did it too. I just need to work around it. Thanks for the help

[skipisode]

One thing you'll have to remember is that if you are playing out live, and are planning to mic your instruments/amps you will definitely need to bring up the mids in the guitar if you want it to "cut" in the mix. Also, main PA speakers will respond different than your amp cabinet speakers due to their frequency response curves. For example, if your guitar cab has 12" speakers and you are
running through a 15" with horn cabinet (mic'd) it will definitely not sound the same. Also, the room's frequency response will impact on this as well. You'll just have to keep on experimenting. Good Luck!

[bassist_25]

The guitar is a mid range instrument, and he's cut all of that from his sound.

This.

tell your friend if he wants to play with other people he needs to abandon his bedroom tone.

...and this. In my experience, sound engineers will have no problem telling you why your tone doesn't work.

and its not a bedroom tone if pantera and i know metallica did it too.

I know the fanbois aren't going to like to hear this, but with the exception of Reinventing the Steel, I hated Dime's tone for the very reasons we're talking about in this thread. I also hate Metallica's live tone, too. Love Ride the Lightning, but there's no way that guitar tone would have cut it live when they were touring in support of that album.

If you want to hear great guitar tone in a heavy context, check out an Embalmed show. Massively thick guitar sound, but every run and harmonic is clear as a bell.

(c'mon, you all know I couldn't resist a thread that involved bashing mid-scooped tone ).

[CMOR]

I agree with Paul. I've always been a fan of Pantera, but I also always hated Rex's bass tone. He was trying to fill in the sound with what little room was left for him and his BASS.

The bass player side of me has come to realize that a guitarist generally won't listen to the overall mix of a band. I'm not saying I haven't worked with some very tone-appreciative players and I'm grateful for it. But in reality, the bass player thought of as plenty low on the totem pole as far as tone goes.

The soundguy(not engineer, I wish I were that good) side of me sometimes has to deal with bands that have good songs but their "sound" is off. As I'm micing them up, I try to take notice of each amps' settings. It helps me get a better idea of what that particular band is going for.
Also, like stated before, I have the PA, with it's strengths and weak spots, to try and help them out. I shouldn't have to, but I'm a realist about it.
If a band asks me what I thought, I try to be nice about it. But oh well.

All in all, "scooped" is bad for anyone. Midrange is where your definition lies. You just have to play around with it to figure out which frequencies are yours and which are your buddy's that achieve a good sound.

I know, the long way around to the same thing others are saying. Just my view.

Steve

[MeYatch]

not to mention Metallica's tone was dictated by an intense hatred of Jason Newsted as much or more than any desire to sound good....

[Jasaoke]

You cannot use recordings to gauge the timbre of actual instruments that you are playing. When you listen to Metallica or Pantera (or any other recording of respectable quality) you are hearing:
1) guitar amp+signal processing that the guitarist selected
2) the acoustics of the recording studio in which it was recorded
3) the mic, mic pre, channel strip, recording media, further signal processing, mixdown/mastering media and signal processing used in the recording/mixing/mastering process
4) the acoustical limitations of the particular playback media you are using (16-bit CD, MP3?)
5) the signal processing of your playback device (car stereo, home theather, earbuds)

My point is, Kirk Hammet and Dirtbag Darrel don't sound like that either, especially not straight out of the amp.

Try to focus on the overall sound of the group. It takes some time, but you can find a sound that works with your style of playing, your groups particular instrumentation, and the sound you want. You might be surprised; often, less is more.

[bassist_25]

I agree with Paul. I've always been a fan of Pantera, but I also always hated Rex's bass tone. He was trying to fill in the sound with what little room was left for him and his BASS.

+1

...and it's a shame because Rex is so underratedly awesome. Learning his lines have kicked my ass many of times.

I'm always a little sad when I hear his build-up at the beginning of Walk - all honky mids with no thick bottom at all. I'm not a big Ampeg guy, but I know that an SVT isn't supposed to sound wussy.

[lonewolf]

Scooped rhythm guitar sounds all great & wonderful (if you like that kinda thing) when its recorded, mixed, compressed & processed to the hilt and played thru a good stereo.

Set the same band up in a live situation and all you'll hear is GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
with an undertone of drums & bass. It just doesn't cut thru without mids.

[floodcitybrass]

IMO, when the mids are scooped on the bass, it becomes more of a percussion instrument. The definition of the of the pitch is hard to distinguish. You start hearing the bass but it becomes hard to tell what the note is.

[CMOR]

You cannot use recordings to gauge the timbre of actual instruments that you are playing.

This is very true. Having seen Pantera live, though, Rex actually has that tone for real(or at least he did, don't know about now). I was close enough to hear his amp instead of the PA. Close enough for spit and sweat to hit me, but that's another story for another time. Besides, it's gross.

Back to the main topic, Headbanger, why did your buddy change his sound? Was it to try something new tonally, or because your tone changed with a new bass? We all have been in both of those exact situations.
Experimentation and change can be good things. I just believe you should know fundamentally why the change happened.

[riksylvania]

I always went by the philosophy of using a P-Bass with single-coil guitar , and Jazz Bass with a humbucker to fill out a mix better, with very little EQ change. Tell the guitar player to stop scooping mids, it sounds bad. If he goes to a good tube amp, he won't have to play with EQ too much.
I also never liked the sounds of a P-Bass played with a pick.

[Headbanger83]

Back to the main topic, Headbanger, why did your buddy change his sound? Was it to try something new tonally, or because your tone changed with a new bass? We all have been in both of those exact situations.
Experimentation and change can be good things. I just believe you should know fundamentally why the change happened.

He I got a new bass after he changed his sound but we hadn't jammed since before he did it. I had hium read this and he decided that hes going to ad some mids. Plus we found a guy thats a friend of our and hes going to help us to get us to sound better together. Thanks so much for the help, ive been playing bass/guitar for 4 years and never really knew to much about all this.

[riksylvania]

Good luck!
Remember, when he scoops midrange out of his guitar sound, he's taking away the most prominent frequency for his guitar. That in turn makes him turn up louder to hear himself, and then stomps all over the rest of the band's frequencies and makes everyone else turn up. that's when everything goes awry.

[Dark Soul]

I just wanted to point out that, while I understand people like to drop the mid range to make their sound heavier, you have to be careful not to drop it too much. This is true of bass and guitar. You've got to have at least a little mid in there to give some tone to your sound. If you drop the mids out completely, all you're going to hear is thick bass and the fuzz of distortion. This is especially true when playing live. So many metal bands I've heard just sound like noise because they've got so much distortion going with no mid range to fill out the tone that I can't even tell what notes they're playing.

Even the heaviest players generally have at least a little mid range in there. Listen closely to the tones of players like Alex Lifeson, John Petrucci, and Eric Johnson. They get amazing tones by carefully balancing their mid range with the highs and lows.

[BloodyFingers]

Try using a small mixer that has sweepable mids. youmaybe able to ajust thru the mixers eq.