Developing your "ear"

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floodcitybrass
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Post by floodcitybrass »

hicksjd9 wrote:People who have been trained but have no ear often sound like robots trying--and failing--to understand something that is just not quantifiable.
-1
IMO completely false.

hicksjd9 wrote:
That's what musical notation is--an attempt to quantify emotion, rhythm, the proper order of musical notes, and timing. In my book, musical notation is an epic fail. I'll take an experienced player with a good ear over a Juilliard grad with no ear ANY DAY OF THE WEEK. The ear trumps the training. Of course, having both is best.

Give me BB King (natural soul and feel) over Zakk Wylde (trained technical supershredder) ANY DAY!

One is a musician and the other is a human arpeggio pedal on fast forward. It's not how many notes you can play, it's what you play and when you play it. This is part of having a musical "ear."
Technique, reading, and musical feeling/emotion are all different animals.
Although you don't directly, reading in between the lines tells me that you are making implications that they are mutually exclusive.

It is obsurd to make the assumption formally trained musicians have no musical feel or emotion... or that they are overly technical with no interpretation of art.

It is simply rediculous to make any such stereotypes.
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hicksjd9
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Post by hicksjd9 »

If your only role of a guitar player is to perform rock songs and immitate what is a on a record, then playing soley by ear may work as you said.
This is THE DEFINITION of what playing sheet music will get you! No improvisation and an exact replica of the artist's work. It doesn't allow for creativity and expression. It is for people who can't be creative on their own.

I'm not saying that formally trained musicians are anything. I'm saying that in my experience formally trained musicians without an ear just haven't impressed me. It is a stereotype that I have built from years of playing with lots of different people, and it is certainly my preference. Maybe I'm elitest about this, but I've played with some excellent musicians (and I certainly don't consider myself to be a great musician) and the best of them have always had good ears and could pick up songs immediately. Some knew a lot of theory. Some none. But the one thing every killer musician I have known has had in common is a good ear.

I know that I've lost a lot of what I used to have because of playing in loud bands for so long. Maybe someday I will have to learn to read music and eat my hat...
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bassist_25
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Post by bassist_25 »

hicksjd9 wrote:I'on it.

Playing by ear is a natural gift. You either have it or you don't.

bassist_25 wrote:
Perfect pitch is a natural gift. Learning how to hear intervals and chords takes time, practice, and experience.

Quote:
hicksjd9 wrote:
There is a difference between learning patterns and actually hearing a note or song and being able to replicate it.

bassist25 wrote:
Agreed.

Paul, I think you contradict yourself with the above two posts.
If you mean hearing a note and being able to tell at what frequency it is vibrating, then perhaps it seems I'm contradicting myself (that's perfect pitch); however, when you say "hear a note" in the context of what jazz cats often talk about - that is, hearing where music should go in your head - then I am not. I meant the latter; sorry if that was confusing.
No performer worth their salt would EVER play something in front of an audience without practicing it (many and many times) beforehand. It just doesn't make sense!
In an ideal world, perhaps. I've been in the situation where I've played in front of a live audience unrehearsed plenty of times. The situation generally goes something like...

Band leader looks over at me.

"Shuffle in G"

I proceed to play a blues song that I've never heard before in my life. The turn-around's a mystery until I get there. Is it the standard I -V or is it the fancified I, IV, I, V? I'll have to figure that out on the fly. I've been in that situation with more complicated forms than blues, too.

Talk to Songmith, Bobby Watters, Rick Wertz, Bill Smith, or any of the other vets here. Without asking them, I guarantee they played unrehearsed material before in front of crowds and did stellar jobs with what was thrown their ways.
This is THE DEFINITION of what playing sheet music will get you! No improvisation and an exact replica of the artist's work. It doesn't allow for creativity and expression. It is for people who can't be creative on their own.
Who says that they cannot be creative on their own? The Beatles played a ton of covers. Were they doing it because they weren't creative? They put out quite a creative body of work. (Oh noes! I may have unintentionally started an originals vs. covers debate).

When should you improvise? Improvising is good if you're playing in Phish. In classical or baroque music, you're not supposed to improvise. The composition is the star rather than the solo performer. What does the Nashville session player say upon being handed sheet music? "Fuck this! I want to be creative. Don't give me this sheet music." I guess the session player can yell that out on the street after the producer throws him out on his ass. :?
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Post by MoonManTom »

My daughter is planning to go to college to get a Bachelors degree in Music Recording Technology, and at the 1st school we visited, they have aural theory as one of the classes you take. Ive been playing for so long now, when I string my guitar up, i can almost tune it with out a tuner, I think the more you play, the more you become familiar with sounds! Best of Luck!
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Post by hannible »

The best thing to do is to listen to some form of music everyday for six months before you even try to sit down and play it . The guitar player from The New Riders of The Purple sage told me that and he was right . You must beat it into your subconcious until you know it like your own name . Then it is an extention of you . As far as hearing tune I can tell you that when I was young this guy who I didn't really like very much told me that whrn I sang that I sucked . Although I didn't like him I recorded myself anyway to hear me , really hear ! He was right in that I sang a little flat and from there a series of recordings put me on the right path . One more thing , you have to burn some grass at least once and be sure to inhale like President Obama did in his youth . That way you will really hear it ! keeping on and practiceThis is Waynebass posting you from Hannible's pc , keep on practicing and practicing , Best of luck
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Post by LHSL »

hicksjd9 wrote:
If your only role of a guitar player is to perform rock songs and immitate what is a on a record, then playing soley by ear may work as you said.
This is THE DEFINITION of what playing sheet music will get you! No improvisation and an exact replica of the artist's work. It doesn't allow for creativity and expression. It is for people who can't be creative on their own.
I dissagree completely. Written music can not capture all that a performer can inpart upon a melody or rhythm. There are things that are not fully documented in sheet music, largely dealing with emotion, that every classically trained musician will do slightly differently.

If what you say is true, then Aaron Copland's Fanfare for the common man would always sound the same no matter which orchestra performed it. If you own multiple recordings of the same music being played by classically trained musicians, it's easy to see that is never the case.
I'm not saying that formally trained musicians are anything. I'm saying that in my experience formally trained musicians without an ear just haven't impressed me. It is a stereotype that I have built from years of playing with lots of different people, and it is certainly my preference. Maybe I'm elitest about this, but I've played with some excellent musicians (and I certainly don't consider myself to be a great musician) and the best of them have always had good ears and could pick up songs immediately. Some knew a lot of theory. Some none. But the one thing every killer musician I have known has had in common is a good ear.
This is completely assumed on your part. There is no way to objectively measure the capability of a given musician's ear. How do you know the people that haven't impressed you had bad ears? Maybe they just sucked as a human being and aren't good at anything. There are people like this you know. Maybe they just didn't care all that much how it sounded. Your inferring that because you weren't impressed, they must have a bad ear.
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Post by RFBuck »

I can see some of JD's points...and NOT taking sides here, can give a good example:

One year I was asked to play Pachabel's Canon for a Christmas Eve service and accompany a piano player. She handed me the sheet music, and I said "I'm sorry, I can't read music." She asked "Then how are you going to do this?" I asked her what key the song was in and to play it through. Within minutes I had the chords figured out and then asked if she wanted them arpeggiated or lightly strummed. She sat there with a strange look on her face. I asked what was wrong and she wanted to know how I did that without sheet music. "By ear" was all I could answer. She thought it was so amazing. I asked her if she had ever just sat down at her piano and just played. She said "Oh no, never. I always have to have some kind of music in front of me." I said "Even the stuff you've played a hundred times before?" "Of course," she said.
I told her I felt sorry for her and she asked why. I said because part of the fun of music is exploring...listening...feeling...and not being tethered to a piece of paper.

NOW, on the other side of the fence...I think being able to read music is a very valuable tool. Like floodcity brass has pointed out, it allows you to perform in certain situations where just ear training won't cut it. So it boils down to what you want to do. You can be a great guitar player, but if you want to be a studio musician, you better be prepared to read music. The producer isn't going to wait for you to figure things out, and he's going to want it done exactly how he wants it done. Improvising probably won't be appreciated.
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Post by hicksjd9 »

Let me just say that I CAN read music. I learned with the trumpet which is one note at a time and that's no problem. It's a bit harder to read standard music on the guitar because of the step differences on each string of the guitar. It's just not like a piano where you can go up and down the keyboard and hit the right notes with certain finger patterns that are built into memory--at least it's not as easy. The closest thing to this on the guitar would be power chords, and anyone could CERTAINLY do THAT from standard sheet music.

With a very difficult piece, I can see where someone with the knowledge of sheet music could appear to come out on top. I mean, it's like reading The Night Before Christmas VS memorizing it. Reading it would take less preparation, but some of the performance would be missing vs. the memorized version. The book (or the music, in this case) sits between you and those you are trying to reach like a wall. The sheet music is getting most of your attention, not your audience. It's impersonal. The benefit to playing by ear is that I will have it memorized as soon as I am able to play it (usually about 5 mins after I have listened to it once or twice), and I can pay it verbatim OR begin adding my personal touch to it immediately, IF I so choose. I can also play it if I have forgotten my sheet music at home. If I tried to memorize it from the sheet music, it would be a much more challenging experiece, because the sheet music keeps you from really analzying the patterns of the song. It does your thinking for you.

To each his own. But for me, a big part of internalizing the music is understanding the movements and patterns of the song, not reading them off the page. It also helps you to form a better connection with your audience.

I see bands jamming on stage with music in front of them sometimes and I (and I will admit that this is VERY biased) think immediately that they are amateurish or unpracticed. It's impressive that they can read the music, but they have little to no connection with their audience and it just feels...wrong somehow.

I was going to let this post go, but the last two posts were interesting.

Buck, nice points on both sides of the argument. I've seen you work and I know you have a great ear. It's part of the reason I've always been so impressed with you musically.

Pstl, orchestras sound different because of their director. That's the guy who is paid to think for the musicians who can only read and regurgitate music. :) Sheet music is necessary in a large group environment because individuality is not prized (and it just can't be or else it would sound like mud). In a 3-5 person band environment, individuality and creativity are necessities, because you are filling large spacial gaps. The band usually then decides which things are cohesive for the song and which things need to go.

I can tell who has an ear and who doesn't by how well they recognize and can correct mistakes in their playing on the fly. My main thought when I was talking about this was writing. I've never had a good experience writing with someone without an ear.

Here are some quick examples--If I strum a chord, they have to watch where my hands are on the neck. If I add a variation on a chord, they need to see it with my fingers on the neck. If I choose to change a note in the chord structure of the song, they have difficulty leading over it because they have memorized certain scales and cannot step out of them by listening to the rhythm guitar part. If someone is playing a part with single notes that they have come up with, it's hard for them to put the rhythm chords behind it. I can go on. It has little to do with the person's attitude or work ethic. All this to simply say that people with a good ear are much easier to work with.

I'm sorry if this is hurtful to some. It's not my intent to be this way. I respect the work you put in learning to read sheet music and following the orders of band directors! It takes humility! There is hope for those who don't play by ear. They can certainly be extremely successful musicians! They can certainly recreate others work VERY WELL! But in the creative rock songwriting world, I think they would certainly struggle when writing music with their bands.

I got away from organized music because of music teachers. The ones I had were moody, uninspiring, and mediocre musicians. Maybe my feelings derive from those experiences, and I just needed to find the right teacher. I'm older now and I just don't feel like putting in the work to "learn" something I can already do naturally.
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bassist_25
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Post by bassist_25 »

hicksjd9 wrote:
But in the creative rock songwriting world, I think they would certainly struggle when writing music with their bands.
And I think that's the issue there: There are so many more circumstances in which a musician may find himself or herself than writing rock songs. I know if feels like I keep beating up on you over this, JD, and that's not my intention. I just think you're coming at this from a really narrow perspective.

Also, the idea that orchestra musicians who read music can't have ears seems a little off base to me, particuarly since just about anybody playing a stringed instrument had to have good enough intonation on their instrument to get hired for an orchestra. Good intonation doesn't simply come from muscle memory and violins and cellos don't have frets.
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Post by PStl »

I wish you all could hear the greatest lecture ever!
Encompassing theory, ear-training, songwriting, arranging, and a logical approach to chords.
By Joseph Wilcox Jenkins, "Envision the chords as a solar system, where "I" (the tonic) is the Sun . . ."
and it goes on for 3 hours! wish I could've taped it, anyway, I'll see if I can find something on the internet. Otherwise, we'll have to have a few beers, and I'll tell you what I remember of it!
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Post by PStl »

here's as close as I can find:

http://www.pianobookletslearningsystem.com/

Image[/img]

now, if you can maneuver your way around just by ear, awesome!
If you can read, or are learning, or thinking about learning, check out the link above for an explanation.
I know it has helped me, not only figuring out covers, solos, or composing.
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Post by hicksjd9 »

Paul,

I don't feel like I am being beaten up over this at all. I have stong opinions about it as do many others on both sides of the fence. I'm not saying that reading music and knowing theory is bad! Not at all! I think it's great! All I'm arguing for is that playing by ear is a very useful ability for a musician to have, and in many instances, a musician who plays by ear already has what they need to be successful as a local or regional rock musician. In a perfect world, I would love to be a classically trained guitarist. I would certainly be a much better musician if that were the case. And it is certainly better to read music than to not be able to read music! I have said that many times throughout my posts as well.

Please understand that I don't believe that reading music and having an ear are mutually exclusive. There are wonderful musicans who just read music. I just think the best can read music AND have a great ear. If it comes down to one or the other, ear trumps reading. I wish I had more knowledge in theory, but for what I am interested in, I just don't need it. Everyone seems to keep getting the impression that I'm taking a crap on educated musicians, but if you read back through you will see that I never said that. As far as a narrow focus is concerned, this is ROCKpage not bluebandpage. :)

Pstl,

That illustration was great. Very cool. I'll certainly give that some time.
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Post by bassist_25 »

hicksjd9 wrote: As far as a narrow focus is concerned, this is ROCKpage not bluebandpage. :)
True, but I think of the "rock" in Rockpage just being more of a name. We have rock, bluegrass, blues, country, oldies, jazz, punk, and metal cats here. We've even had hip-hop MCs come through here.

Wow, I really do like arguing. *lol*
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