Developing your "ear"

[felix'apprentice]

Wondering how long it took you to develop the knack for hearing the right notes and being able to find the key of a song without asking. This is something i've been working on - and it's starting to develop for me. its kind of exciting. i still second guess myself - but im assuming with time the confidence will come along.

what are some "techniques" you used? or did it just come naturally. i know it wasn't natural for me, i've had to teach myself to find the bass line and then find the key of the song. and once i've found the key of the song i can throw out a decent lead.

thanks!

- kayla.

[f.sciarrillo]

kayla, this is a great post. I have been doing the same thing, but am having a hard time with it. I am starting to think that I might be tone deaf or something.

[Banned]

I am having more trouble with timing or phrasing, I think I have been getting a fairly good ear for intervals.

[lynch1]

I picked up on it right away. I guess I got it from my mom, she played piano by ear, but could read music also. I used to work in a music store and parents would always ask "How long after you picked up the guitar did you play a song?". BAD QUESTION!!! I played a song the first time I picked it up, they were one note chords, but I just fumbled through til I heard the right notes. I took lessons for about 6 months, but I never practiced. I knew it, my teacher knew it, my mom knew it. I couldn't hit a right note on Mary Had a Little Lamb out of the Mel Bay books, but I could jam to Metallica just from listening to it. It is hard to do nowadays, because there are alternate tunings, drop d,c,b,a, etc. If I do figure something out, I will usually check tabs to see how close I was or to figure out a troublesome spot in the song. Ear training can be taught, but having some natural ability is certainly a plus.

[songsmith]

I'm more comfortable now than ever knowing/feeling intervals, but I have to admit, it's mostly educated guessing on song keys.
In bluegrass it's fairly easy, because the vast majority of songs are played in the key of G... sort of. The dobro and banjo are tuned to an Open G tuning, and the guitar generally plays in the G shape in order to do "G-runs," which are stock passing licks that lead other pickers to the next chord. When you hear a certain G-run, you know what chord will be next, that way you don't necessarily have to know the song to play it with others. To play in other keys, you use a capo, so you always have those G-runs play the same. That's why bluegrass hardly ever plays in the key of F.
In traditional country, you guess based on the main instrument featured in the song. Piano songs often come in the key of C. Strumming songs usually are in G or E, however, there are exceptions to every rule, all the time, so it's not an airtight rule... hence, the guessing.
Blues often happens in the keys of A, C, G, and E, though I love a blues song in B to play harmonica to.
Obviously, there are a jillion songs that do not fit the mold of what I've laid out here, and that is one more reason I suck at being a musician. Take lessons, and educate yourself. Pretty much every veteran musician I know wishes he'd studied music theory just a little harder.--->JMS

[bassist_25]

Ear development is something that comes through trail-and-error, listening intently to music, and being able to "feel" the direction in which the music is going. The truth of the matter is that the majority of us are not blessed with perfect pitch - or perhaps not cursed, depending on how you look at it...I've heard about people with perfect pitch being driven up the wall by going through normal everyday life and hearing slightly off key sounds, such as a school bell, all of the time. But I digress. Becoming familiar with the sound of intervals, either within a harmonic or melodic context, in my experience, is one of the most important tools to development. Some intervals are easy to hear, such as a minor 3rd or a tritone. Others can be harder to hear, such as a perfect 4th (though sus4 chords are pretty easy to distinquish) or a minor 6th.

In my experience, Western music has this wierd thing where it's either really diatonic or isn't very diatonic at all. Knowing whether the song you're playing is diatonic or not helps with knowing what note choices you have. I'm an advocate of all musicians learning a little bit of piano, because it initiates a lot of "a-ha" moments when you can actually see the interaction between melody and harmony. Or maybe I'm just a real visual learner.

Start off by listening to some really simple stuff that's diatonic. I mean simple like Three Blind Mice or Camp Town Races. Don't worry about chromatics and accidentals at the beginning. Listen to the intervals in the melody. Figure out what those intervals are. Internalize them. Figure out the harmony. It should all be triads. Move onto something a little less diatonic, something with an accidental. Learn that melody. Find something with a little deeper harmony and learn those chords and how they interact. You'll start to notice the trends that make up Western harmony (i.e., I, IV, V7; I, vii, IV, V7; etc.). Keep moving onto to more challenging pieces. Listen to as much music as you can. You'll start to hear deeper harmonies. What was dissonant to you three months ago may sound consonant now.

And probably one of the biggest pieces of advice to guitar and bass players: When you sit down to learn a piece, work for it. Don't automatically go reaching for the tab!

[bassist_25]

I'm more comfortable now than ever knowing/feeling intervals, but I have to admit, it's mostly educated guessing on song keys.
In bluegrass it's fairly easy, because the vast majority of songs are played in the key of G... sort of. The dobro and banjo are tuned to an Open G tuning, and the guitar generally plays in the G shape in order to do "G-runs," which are stock passing licks that lead other pickers to the next chord. When you hear a certain G-run, you know what chord will be next, that way you don't necessarily have to know the song to play it with others. To play in other keys, you use a capo, so you always have those G-runs play the same. That's why bluegrass hardly ever plays in the key of F.
In traditional country, you guess based on the main instrument featured in the song. Piano songs often come in the key of C. Strumming songs usually are in G or E, however, there are exceptions to every rule, all the time, so it's not an airtight rule... hence, the guessing.
Blues often happens in the keys of A, C, G, and E, though I love a blues song in B to play harmonica to.
Obviously, there are a jillion songs that do not fit the mold of what I've laid out here, and that is one more reason I suck at being a musician. Take lessons, and educate yourself. Pretty much every veteran musician I know wishes he'd studied music theory just a little harder.--->JMS

+1 on everything you just said, Johnny. In my experience, the predominant keys are often a function of the instruments that are usually used to play a specific style of music. A lof of pre-90s rock music was in E in order to utilize a lot of open strings. A lot of jazz is in F or Bb to facilitate the horn players. BTW, much love to all of the horn players who speak in C concert scale terms for this bass player.

I should said have noted in my above post that I also rarely am ever able to tell the key of a song simply by hearing it. Frankly, it annoys the piss out of me when someone starts a song without calling the key, unless it's a song that's universally always played in the same key (e.g., I've never seen anyone play Roadhouse Blues in anything other than E, but I've played Johnny B. Goode in E, A, B, and Bb).

[Jasaoke]

great thread

I know that they are exceedingly available, but TABs are not a good resource for ear training. Typically, if the only musical nomenclature a person understands is TAB, then they probably don't know enough about music to be considered a trustworthy source.

[ToonaRockGuy]

Offering my 2 cents, formal training is everything. If you can learn to read music, you'll learn where the root of a chord is, and you'll be able to hear that root dominate the chord in any song that you hear.

I know a lot of unbelievable musicians who are self-taught, and I am in awe not only of their talent, but also wonder how much better they could be if they could read music and knew theory. Reading music opens up so many doors for you, it's unbelievable. Tab can only take you so far...in Broadway and LA, they don't slam a tab in front of you at a session, it's sheet music. And if you can't quickly suss it out or sight read it, you're out the door and the next cat in line gets the opportunity. Nashville, however, is another story, as they have their own system of music notation there that you'll need to learn if you want to break in to Music Row.

I cannot stress it enough, though...if you have the opportunity, even for the basics, learn to read music. You'll be amazed at how far it will take you, and how it will really open your ears up.

[lynch1]

a-men ToonaRockGuy. I wish I could read music. I would be a much better player, song writer if I knew theory. I remember when I auditioned for a band you were in with Joe C. Joe said we were playing a song in such and such key. Joe knew I didn't know theory, I looked at him, he looked at me and said "oh yeah, play these chords." Some people think that knowing theory limits you, because you know what is right and wrong theory wise. I could agree with that, but you need some sort of foundation to work with. Your solos would be better structured, knowing theory as well. No doubt about it, music knowledge is very important, but training your ear you can hear what is right and wrong.

[Jasaoke]

to add to lynch1:
I, too, have heard people say that learning theory limits you.

Not one of those people know theory.

Not knowing at least some theory is like trying to be a painter without learning the names of the colors.

[f.sciarrillo]

I think I am going to ask my guitar teacher to start training me to use my ear at my next lesson. The probably would be the best way to do it? He already has me going through the scales and listening to them so I can get what each note sounds like. I find that kinda cool because I am able to tell when I hit the wrong note, although I couldn't tell you what note it was lol .

[hicksjd9]

Playing by ear is a natural gift. You either have it or you don't. There is a difference between learning patterns and actually hearing a note or song and being able to replicate it.

It's a joke to think that guitarists and bassists need to be formally trained! The instruments are simple and tabs are more than adequate. Rhythm instruments may be a different animal. I don't know, because I don't play them, but I will say that drummers who can count are great.

People who have been trained but have no ear often sound like robots trying--and failing--to understand something that is just not quantifiable. That's what musical notation is--an attempt to quantify emotion, rhythm, the proper order of musical notes, and timing. In my book, musical notation is an epic fail. I'll take an experienced player with a good ear over a Juilliard grad with no ear ANY DAY OF THE WEEK. The ear trumps the training. Of course, having both is best.

Give me BB King (natural soul and feel) over Zakk Wylde (trained technical supershredder) ANY DAY!

One is a musician and the other is a human arpeggio pedal on fast forward. It's not how many notes you can play, it's what you play and when you play it. This is part of having a musical "ear."

[ToonaRockGuy]

It's a joke to think that guitarists and bassists need to be formally trained! The instruments are simple and tabs are more than adequate.

Whoa. Seriously, JD. Whoa. That statement, my friend, reveals your musical limitations and prejudices.

Now let me be perfectly clear: I'm not saying that all musicians need to be formally trained. What I'm saying is that formal training in theory and reading will take you a whole hell of a lot farther than slogging around on internet tabs. Any kid with a bit of talent can half-ass his way through a tab. But to get into a professional situation (which some folks here may want to do), you will need to learn theory and reading.

Tell you what, the proof is in the pudding. You and I should go audition for Penn State's music program. You pick the instrument. I guarantee that I'll get farther than you, only because a huge part of every audition for any music school is sight-reading. They put down a composition in front of you, and you get 2 minutes to look it over. Then you have to play it cold. If you can't read music, you ain't gonna get in, period. The professors have a copy of the music in front of them, and if you "fake" your way through it, they'll know immediately.

It's not how many notes you can play, it's what you play and when you play it. This is part of having a musical "ear."

Actually, that's called "taste". Having a musical ear is being able to listen to what's going on around you and fit in with the proper musical style, and in the proper key. Again, you have to be able to understand the basics of theory to know how your part fits in with the blues tune that the bandleader has called out in D. If you don't have training, odds are that you're gonna fall out of key sometime in the tune, and you're not gonna know it. Proper formal training helps develop an ear.

One of the abilities I'm blessed with (due in no small part to formal training) is perfect ear. I can hear a passage in a song, and harmonize with it instantly. I learned to fine tune that ability by having formal training on the violin from age 6 to age 18. I also underwent testing at the University of Michigan during my junior year of high school, and was (and pretty much still am) able to tell when a note is out of tune by as little as 15hz. (At least I was before I lost so much hearing due to drumming.) Ask Scott Botteicher, my guitarist in Naildriver. I can usually tell him if he has a string out of tune before he knows it. It drives him crazy, too.

Don't get me wrong, JD, I'm not busting on you or anything, I just am trying to make you understand that saying formal training is irrelevant is really just misinformed and not right. Granted, most folks here just want to play out, make music and maybe put out a few records. Some want to make it big time as a Rock artist. But if you are looking at all at places like Nashville, Los Angeles or New York (especially Broadway), formal training is a MUST.

To put a lighter spin on my long rant, let me sum up this way...

Formal training: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4WEAHRLorM

No formal training: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj7pDNDuoJ0

[PStl]

to perfect your inner ear for a particuler interval, try this:
Perfect 4th: sounds like "hear comes the bride"
now randomly pick out a pitch and sing "hear comes the bride"
Repeat

every music student should know solfege (do-re-mi):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xSBXf7dFbQ&feature=fvw
now randomly pick out a pitch and sing "do-re-mi"
Repeat

[songsmith]

I gotta go with Kevin and the rest on all this, JD. I was very staunch for many years on how I didn't see music as "notes on a page," how I felt it as opposed to knowing it, but I WAS WRONG. Obviously, feeling the music is the most important part, but UNDERSTANDING it only helps you feel it more, because your head and heart are both working together. Everyone can see beauty in a painting, but knowing how it was painted makes it even more special, because you know the effort involved in painting it, and can apply those brushstrokes to your own work.
I hope that makes sense. You don't have to have a Berklee diploma, but knowing certain things makes your career easier and deeper, and I wish I knew more of those things.
Case in point: Brett Fanelli plays for the K-Band, and was a founding member of Mama Corn. There is no doubt in my mind that he connects with music on a deep spiritual level, as many of us do, but he also has multiple music degrees, and plays much more easily than me, because he just knows certain things I don't, like the next chord has to be a C-sharp-minor, when I guess the next chord could be any damn thing. He just knows, and I admire that.--->JMS

[Big Jimi Cee]

When I am going through my practice routine in the evening, I can route the TV through my mixer that I use to practice in my apartment and any time something with music comes on I try to work out whatever is playing at the time. If it is a commercial you have only a snippet to work from so you have to either figure it out quickly or work from memory, both will help with developing reasonable relative pitch. If the program is musically based again I will try to figure out what is playing and again you have only one shot unless you have and use a rewind feature. For me, I find the key the song is in first then from there I work on the rest of what is playing.

Another good exercise is working something out from memory. If you can hear it in you head you should be able to work it out and you will find the more you do this your relative pitch will improve.

Finally, exposure! I will not take sides on the formal training vs self taught, but what is important is practice and exposure to music. If you have a fundamental understanding of what is going on and continue to work, listen and more work it will come, although for some it is easier than for others.

This is not an overnight process, don't get frustrated, you will find that the time you put in will pay off in the end.

[f.sciarrillo]

How about this?

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2009/ ... friend.ars

[bassist_25]

Playing by ear is a natural gift. You either have it or you don't.

Perfect pitch is a natural gift. Learning how to hear intervals and chords takes time, practice, and experience.

There is a difference between learning patterns and actually hearing a note or song and being able to replicate it.

Agreed.

It's a joke to think that guitarists and bassists need to be formally trained!

Anyone who tries to learn from one single source is limiting himself or herself. Many professors recieve their Bachelor's, Master's, and Doctorates from different institutions. The reason for this is to get exposed to different ideas and not to be indoctrinated into one way of thinking if they've been taught by the faculty of one department for their entire academic career.

Ergo, nobody NEEDS to be formally trained, but being formally trained, along with trying and failing on stage, picking up licks from local cats, reading the Mel Bay books, etc. is going to help make a more rounded player.

The instruments are simple and tabs are more than adequate.

The instruments are more simple compared to classical instruments, such as violin or harp, but that doesn't mean they don't work on the same musically theoritical principles as all other instruments. Harmony's harmony; melody's melody. Tabs are a limited form of musical communication. They generally do not have any information regarding timing or phrasing. Relying on tabs may be cool if you're just jammin' in a garage. But what happens if you're playing with a keyboard player and you're asked the key? Saying, "I don't know, dawg, I just play '1,' '3' and '8' here" doesn't mean shit to a keyboardist or a horn player or a violinst.

Purposefully limiting your musical knowledge may be alright when it comes to learning easy rock tunes and the Top 40 stuff of the day, but anyone with that attitude is definitely going to get a rude awakening if they roll into a jazz session and have a lead sheet plopped down in front of them. Good luck with deciphering the dense harmony that's going to get thrown at you without any theoritical knowledge; it will really be fun with the pianist starts using chord substitions. Pray that the band leader is speaking in C concert scale terms when calling the keys.

That's just one example of how limiting musical knowledge will limit your potential as a musician. Forget any aspirations of session or pit orchestra work if you don't read or have theoritical knowledge.

People who have been trained but have no ear often sound like robots trying--and failing--to understand something that is just not quantifiable.

You're confusing the medium of musical communication with the internalization and expression of the music. If I read Howl by Allen Ginsberg and then recite it at a Ginsberg honorary symposium, am I, by default, going to convey less emotion than if I had listened to a recording of Ginsberg delivering the poem, memorizing it, and then reciting it?

That's what musical notation is--an attempt to quantify emotion, rhythm, the proper order of musical notes, and timing. In my book, musical notation is an epic fail.

Go check out some Yo Yo Ma. If you don't think he's playing with sheer emotion, despite probably learning those pieces via standard notation, then I suppose we have very different concepts of playing with emotion.

I'll take an experienced player with a good ear over a Juilliard grad with no ear ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.

I'll take the quality musician with good timing, good tone, tasteful phrasing who shows up on time, does the work, doesn't bring drama or bad habits, and is easy to get along with (and owns some PA gear is always good too ). If they got to that point through formal training or through the school of hard knocks is fine with me.

The ear trumps the training. Of course, having both is best.

Agreed. But why do you think that having a great ear and having great training are mutually exclusive?

Give me BB King (natural soul and feel) over Zakk Wylde (trained technical supershredder) ANY DAY!

With all respect to Mr. King, I remember seeing a video where he jammed with U2. Maybe it was the Rattle and Hum documentary. He looks over at Bono, and says something to the effect that he hopes he doesn't have to play any chords because he's not good with chords. That's fine, because throughout most of King's career, he has built his sound around his own playing. However, whenever he ended up in a situation where he couldn't just rely on his signature way of doing things, he was a bit in over his head.

For the record, I love both BB's and Zakk's playing.

It's not how many notes you can play, it's what you play and when you play it. This is part of having a musical "ear."

Agreed.

[PStl]

I don't think you can make it INTO Julliard without some kind of an ear, much less make it OUT!!!

I met Yo Yo Ma in Pittsburgh before an awesome concert, front row seats! He definitely plays with a lot of emotion!

Very cool to hear some of you guys are into theory, keep up the good work. It's well worth it!

Did any of you guys ever learn any of the Kodaly method?

[floodcitybrass]

A lot of jazz is in F or Bb to facilitate the horn players. BTW, much love to all of the horn players who speak in C concert scale terms for this bass player.

However, there is no sympathy to the rock horn player. We play lots of tune in concert E, D, and A, and just about any other key. Then you have to apply the transposition.

So for example: Play that Funky Music is in E and guitar players are licking their chops. That puts a tenor sax in F# and Alto/Bari sax in C# (which is 7 sharps, ie sharp on every note including B# and E#).

[floodcitybrass]

IMO perfect pitch is not as important as relative pitch between notes.

So you might not know exactly what key the song is in but you know what the changes are.

To those of you are still developing their ear, this can be learned with time and practice. You don't have to be born with it.


Only down side is that the better your ear gets, the less tolerance you have for bad players and out of tune guitars.
I just can't see how those people can sit in guitar shops all day and listen to out of tune stairway to heaven. I'm not knocking the beginners but they are off to the wrong start if they can't tell their guitar is out of tune.

[hicksjd9]

I'm glad I torqued some people and made them speak up. I'll begin by saying that I respect all of your opinions. Let me say that while I appreciate the nature and value of formal training, I don't feel that it is necessary in rock music. Certainly not with the guitar or bass (Classical guitar is DIFFERENT!). While I can't sight read a guitar part on sheet music, I can listen to and replicate one without cracking open a tab or looking at anything. I don't need the sheet music or tabs. I can hear it and replicate it almost immediately (and with a little effort, and a few listens, I can replicate the REALLY unconventional chords as well). For anyone who doesn't believe me, come over and bring something nasty (lots of oddball suspended chords) and I will prove it. I'd even put money on it.

I didn't develop this ability over time. I was simply born with it. I don't want this to seem like I am bragging...I promise I'm not. It's just something I, and 20-30% of other musicians, can do. This is my opinion, of course, but notation is for people who were not born with this gift. People who were born with it just don't need sheet music. Could I have benefitted from formal training? Absolutely! It would make communicating ideas much easier!

To Kevin:
Why would any musician EVER need to sight read music except to audition??? No performer worth their salt would EVER play something in front of an audience without practicing it (many and many times) beforehand. It just doesn't make sense! I can hear something once and sing it immediately, why would I need to sight read a vocal part without ever hearing it? This is the mindset that has always turned me off. It's an elitest attitude to see who works the hardest, not who has the most talent. I certainly don't need to know theory to know what works in a song or where to go next. I just KNOW. I'm sure my brain is doing the theory naturally without me actually being able to state aloud what the patterns ARE. A lot of people learn the English language this way. They know it's an adjective, but just can't say why it is. As a teacher, I want them to know WHY, but if they can get the answer right every time, it really doesn't matter. They understand the theory without being able to explain it. The why of it is only important for those who struggle with the natural understanding of it. When you explain the why to them, even those who struggle at first can learn it. What I'm saying here is that I KNOW that understanding the why IS VALUABLE, but in my case, and for what I and most others are using it for, it's just unnecessary.

hicksjd9 wrote:
Playing by ear is a natural gift. You either have it or you don't.

bassist_25 wrote:
Perfect pitch is a natural gift. Learning how to hear intervals and chords takes time, practice, and experience.

Quote:
hicksjd9 wrote:
There is a difference between learning patterns and actually hearing a note or song and being able to replicate it.

bassist25 wrote:
Agreed.

Paul, I think you contradict yourself with the above two posts. Or, maybe our definitions of an ear are different. I would define having an ear as the natural ability to hear intervals as well as hearing a song and replicating it. Perhaps intervals can be learned, but hearing a note and replicating it cannot. Of course, I've not been around every musician who has ever played, but I've been around quite a few, and I can say that I've NEVER seen anyone who couldn't do this naturally learn to do this last part with any amount of time or practice.

I think it would be hard for me to say what key I'm playing in, but the minute I hear what other musicians are doing, I can join right in. I can say that theory would help me to communicate better with other musicians. The language is valuable for communication. That, I can agree with!

Songsmith,
I think there is a lot of validity in what you said, my only problem with it is the mindset that the next note HAS to be note 1. I've played with a lot of theory guys who said the next note has to be note 1 and I've played note 2 and they were like, whoa, Why did that work? Then they'd have to get out their theory brains and reason it out. I just think theory can also be limiting for this very reason.

[floodcitybrass]

To Kevin:
Why would any musician EVER need to sight read music except to audition???

No performer worth their salt would EVER play something in front of an audience without practicing it (many and many times) beforehand. It just doesn't make sense!

Because if you don't have a recording of the song, you are screwed.

If your only role of a guitar player is to perform rock songs and immitate what is a on a record, then playing soley by ear may work as you said.

Playing by ear is part of music. Reading is another part of music. If you don't play by ear, then you are limited. Similarly, if you can't read music, you are limited. It's all what your goals are.

But here are some examples that require reading music


-Majority of Session musician work
-Broadway shows
-Large rock bands (for example bands in the format of: american idol, late night show bands, production bands on say cruise ships)
-Jazz bands or jazz sessions
-guitar enembles
-Leading or directing a group where other people are reading music
-playing a song you never played before
-folk

[KeithReynolds]

I have horrible ears.