American "Idle"

[byndrsn]

I thought some of you might enjoy the following column written by Chuck Muth.
Urbs


AMERICAN IDLE: THE NEW AMERICAN DREAM

Larry Elder penned a rather disturbing column recently. He noted that, “According to the World Almanac 2005, nearly 70 percent of black children are born outside of wedlock.” And children born into such circumstances, not surprisingly, end up having a LOT more problems than kids born into a married household. Go figure.

The first thing that occurred to me upon reading this was that unless a bunch of white men were going around raping and impregnating black women, then this is one problem the black community simply cannot blame on “whitey.” Physician, heal thyself.

But this problem is even deeper. It’s about a serious, un-American entitlement mindset taking hold in this country, and not just among minorities.

Elder writes specifically about Fantasia Barrino, winner of the recent American Idol contest; an unmarried mother who “dropped out of school in ninth grade, got pregnant and gave birth at age 17.” Obviously, she’s not alone in choosing this dangerous path at such a young age. What’s troubling is that girls such as Fantasia think this is something to be proud of. Indeed, in a song titled “Baby Mama” on her recently released CD, Fantasia refers to single-parent motherhood as “a badge of honor.”

Honor? What’s “honorable” about irresponsibly getting yourself knocked up and bringing a baby into the world when you have no husband, no job and no education? Your baby gets to start life with two strikes against him while standing blindfolded at the plate with a whiffle-ball bat on his shoulder against Nolan Ryan. Gee, what an honor.

But it’s even worse. Get this line from the song: “I see you get that support check in the mail, Ya open and you're like, 'What the hell.' You say, 'This ain't even half of day care.' Sayin' to yourself, 'This here ain't fair.' To all my girls who don't get no help. Who gotta do everything by yourself...”

It’s hard to know where to begin here, although the fact that Fantasia ain’t got no good English tends to confirm the notion that she, indeed, dropped out of school WAY too early.

I’m assuming, and not without reason, that the “support check” Fantasia refers to is from Uncle Sam and not the baby’s father. That a large segment of the American population continues to be dependent upon the government in this post-welfare reform world means we still have a long way to go.

But think about what Fantasia laments with regard to the paucity of her government check. That it won’t cover the cost of food? Clothing? A roof over her head? Medical care? No. That it doesn’t cover even half the cost of paying someone else to raise HER child during the day. Fantasia apparently believes that being an absentee parent is not only a good thing, but an entitlement as well. She plays, you pay.

“This here ain’t fair,” huh?

Apparently no one ever told Fantasia that life AIN’T fair. Get over it. There are no guarantees in life...even in America. You’re not even “entitled” to happiness. All our Founders provided for was a God-given right to PURSUE happiness, not attain it. Some do. Some don’t. It might not be “fair.” But that’s life. Get used to it. And stop whining.

Finally, the kicker: “To all my girls who don’t get no help. Who gotta do everything by yourself.”

“Who don’t get no help”? Certainly not in the grammar department, but I digress.

What help and from whom does Fantasia think “her girls” are entitled. From the kid’s no-account father? OK, sure. But now for the Million Dollar Question: Did Fantasia’s girls stop, for even a moment, to think about that BEFORE climbing into the sack with the bums who “don’t give them no help” now? Or did they stop to think, “Hey, maybe I should get on the pill first”? Yeah, sure they did.

These poor girls have to do everything by themselves, huh? Well, they sure made the decision to do the horizontal bop unprotected by themselves. They didn’t consult you and I in advance to see if we wanted to pay for the consequences of their actions. Why in the world should WE pay after the fact for THEIR choice?

That this is the kind of un-American, government-dependent thinking which wins awards on American Idol is all I need to know to be grateful that I’ve never watched the show. American Idol, my eye. There’s nothing to idolize here. American Idle would be more like it.

# # #

Chuck Muth is president of Citizen Outreach, a non-profit public policy advocacy organization in Washington, D.C. The views expressed are his own and do not necessarily reflect the views of Citizen Outreach.

[ZappasXWife]

While I do agree with many points made here (especially that these girls should think before doing as most half-way intelligent women do), I have a problem with the assertion that this situation is un-American. This sort of thing happens all over the world...we live in a world, not a bubble called America. I am sick to death of everything being tied to patriotism (usually followed by some religious tie-in thanks to the Bush administration...'take Christ into the ballot box with you'...huh??).
The only thing REMOTELY un-American is the author's GUESS that the government is paying (not enough) child support, not the father. Well, if that is true then maybe something is wrong with America, and voicing it does not make the person un-American! Figuring out how to fix problems is what makes a nation great, not keeping quiet about it! And while we're at it, let's keep working on improving inner-city schools so that girls like Fantasia have better grammar. Did you know that when a school district has low PSSA scores they get little or no funding, the schools with high PSSA scores get the extra money. Thanks George, that makes a lot of sense...And since when is it un-American to put your child in day-care? We are not living in 1958.

[esa]

::just shakes her head:: wel iff thas th kase, im kwittin' mi jawb att thiss hear skool an' tellin' y'all rok paegers that yu r payin' mi bills at hoom beecuz i ain't gettin' know r'spect frum th why-te man hoo oo's mee monneys. that ain't fare. ::sage nod:: 'scuse mee whyle i go an' spit out a feu kidses now an' wate fer mi chek thas cummin' in da male.

[f.sciarrillo]

Somethings are better left unsaid..

[bassist_25]

, I have a problem with the assertion that this situation is un-American. This sort of thing happens all over the world...we live in a world, not a bubble called America. I am sick to death of everything being tied to patriotism

I agree 100%. I've stated numerous times here that patriotism is a bad thing. Patriotism says, "Don't think; do what's right for State A or Country B." It leads to things such as GroupThink and outgroup homogenity bias. Besides, why would someone want to identify themselves with an arbitrary entitey?

The problem I have with articles such as the one above is that they simplify matters. Writers, such as the one who drafted the article, totally disregard little matters such as pyschology and sociology (and I love the class warfare propaganda there also about the supposed welfare check). It's simple Skinner/Watson conditioning stuff, but that would require one to think rather than spout dogma to an audience who are simply looking for something to conform to their confirmation biases anyway. Anybody who slept through an undergrad course in psychology/sociology will tell you one of the causes of the current African American community is a self-fulling prophecy. We're also, as I stated earlier, forgetting to take environmental factors into consideration. When you are conditioned from birth in a poor environment consisting of drugs, gangbanging, alchoholism, ect. and then are shipped off to a poor inner-city school, how do you think you are going to turn out? For example, I'm an INTJ personality, which is the classic MBTI type found in single child families (such as myself). To think that people are totally free to choose their thought processes regardless of behaviorist conditioning or cognitive development is ignorant.

With that in mind, I suggest to those whom wish to better humanity through psychological/sociological means, read some books by Dr. Abraham Maslow and Dr. Carl Rogers. These two men believe that every person is intrinsically capable of self-actualizing and their work reshaped the outlook of many behavioral scientists (and even therapy itself). If you want to help someone, help someone; don't critisize and take on the elitist atittitude. And don't simply search out information that conforms to a confirmation bias. Solving problems is not as simple as perpetuating class warfare with propaganda (and conservatives and liberals are both guilty of this).

And I've also stated before: Most people's grammar skills need work. My head's ready to explode after going through a whole day of hearing double negatives, incorrect usage of subjunctive clauses, ect. I hate ebonics as much as the next guy, but poor speaking/writing skills are not exclusive to the African American community.

[lonewolf]

"Did you know that when a school district has low PSSA scores they get little or no funding, the schools with high PSSA scores get the extra money. "

It makes perfect sense to me. Reward a job well done and do NOT reward a job NOT well done. The badly performing school district has an incentive to do better and the ones who did well can expand and allow more kids into their superior learning system. The parents in the badly performing school district have the obligation to make changes.

When you throw money at a government problem, all you get is a more expensive government problem.

[bassist_25]

It makes perfect sense to me. Reward a job well done and do NOT reward a job NOT well done. The badly performing school district has an incentive to do better and the ones who did well can expand and allow more kids into their superior learning system. The parents in the badly performing school district have the obligation to make changes.

When you throw money at a government problem, all you get is a more expensive government problem.

And while this political/economic game is being played out between the government, schools, and parents, the ones who ultimatley suffer are the students. An older transplant may be able to still be successful in a shitty school, but it's important that quality education begin at an earlier age since brain development and neural plasticity is highest during childhood. Yes, you're right, simply throwing money at a problem doesn't solve it, but again, it goes deeper than bureaucracy; and the sooner we realize that and the sooner George W. "No child Left Behid, even though I was only a C student at Yale (which I attended thanks to nepotism anyways)" Bush realizes this, the more will can talk about things such as cognition and development, rather than funds and American Idol winners having children during their teens.

Personally, I would love to see the whole educational system be totally overhauled using many of Howard Gardner and Robert Sternberg's theories of intelligence. But then again, it's a state (possibly national?) requirement for high school students to pass phys. ed. class but not pass reading class, so I doubt we'll be putting any of that into use for a while.

[jet_king]

, Anybody who slept through an undergrad course in psychology/sociology will tell you one of the causes of the current African American community is a self-fulling prophecy. We're also, as I stated earlier, forgetting to take environmental factors into consideration. When you are conditioned from birth in a poor environment consisting of drugs, gangbanging, alchoholism, ect. and then are shipped off to a poor inner-city school, how do you think you are going to turn out?

I don't know about all of this. Anyone who was awake during their undergraduate American Literature course, who has read material by African American authors, and who knows anything about the Harlem Renaissance, is keenly aware that the African American destiny is NOT one of poverty and dereliction. Furthermore, if African Americans were merely products of their surroundings, MLK would never have spoken and inspired, and Malcolm X never would have moved a generation to action. Too, people like Langston Hughes, Countee Cullen, Zora Neale Hurston, and Jean Toomer (just to name a few) would have remained silent. After all, what would have been the use of saying a single word? I'm not a determinist in any sense of the word, and it irritates me to no end to hear this kind of rubbish. It is much more the white, mainstream, conservative (and quite often religious) ignorance and continued bigotry (and hatred) that continues to keep African Americans in their proverbial place.

"Free at last "? Hardly.

And, granted, Skinner was a behavioralist; however, I don't remember him ever suggesting in any way that people could be conditioned to blindly accept their social situation. That might be a bit of a leap. In Walden II, Skinner illustrated the apparent failure of the attempt to condition subjects to accept Utopia.

And finally, it's 'etc.', not 'ect.'

[bassist_25]

Don't get me wrong; I wasn't trying to discredit African American progression. I was merely trying to get deeper into the problem instead of falling back on simplifications such as the article that Tom posted. While the struggle cannot be blamed entirely on a self-fullfilling prophecy, it does exist and should be recognizied. If one internalizes negative racial stereotypes in the first step of Jean Phinney's model of ethnic idenitity formation, low self-steem can result. After rereading my intial post, it probaly did come off as simplified and even a bit patronizing. That was not my intent.

I remember AG Gaston once said that if you wish to free the people, you must give them economic opportunity. I couldn't agree more. That's especially true when considering this is a capitalistic country. He who controls the wealth, controls the power (going back to the school situation). The problem is propaganda, such as the article above, perpetuating class warfare. One side attempts to make you indignant by telling you that the minorities are freeloading off of your work, taking all of the jobs, fucking your white women, and corrupting America. And of course, a ton of people eat that shit right up. Just go to that Stormfront website to get a load of the racist mentality. The other side tries to tell you that you are owed special privledges just because of persecution. Before anyone realizes what's happening, the reactionary extremes are slinging mud at each other and nothing is getting accomplished. I know what you're thinking: "Whoa Paul, with all this talk of class struggle, you're going to start spouting off about labor-value and dictatorship of the proletariat." Not at all - I'm all about the free-market. But if one is to self-actualize, he or she needs the means by which to self-actualize. I'm not saying that we hand people an egalitarian society just for the sake of it; I'm saying that people need to be afforded opportunity. The article assumes that the women in question was provided, from her environment, ample opportunity. I highly doubt that is the case. I'm saying we give this women the same opportunities that we living here in white-bred conservative America have: good education, freedom from crime, and most importantly, freedom from persecution because of skin color. Let's look at how to fix these problems, whether they are from psychological, sociological, philosophical, or economic perspectives.

Or we could just condemn her for having a child out of wedlock and then make fun of her grammar skills. That would be the easier thing to do.

*gets off of soap-box*

[lonewolf]

Did anybody notice that there is a distinct lack of moderation in nearly everything today? Everything is XXXtreme. I say fuck that. I want my moderation back.

add: It is important that all people realize, know and understand that pre-college education, by law, is the responsibility of the states as set forth in the several state constitutions. You will not find the word education in the U.S. Constitution, anywhere. I take offense to the federal bureacracy poking its nose in places where its not supposed to. If you really want to mess up the educational system, the feds can do it faster than anybody.

[byndrsn]

Ya know what, I feel proud that I can still get some of you a little fired up and it is still another 3 years until the next presidential election will be in full swing!!


Seriously, I LOVED that article. But there were two main points from it that I feel strongly about:

The first thing is that it ticks me off looking at some of the entertainers (athletes, musicians, etc.) that are idolized by today’s youth. Many of these individuals do not deserve to be looked up to by anyone – let alone impressionable young people. It is kind of funny to look back to when Elvis first started or when the Beatles were just hitting the scene and adults were upset about it. Look how far down the shitter things have gone since then!! Now we have artists who are spouting out songs that are just plain angry and violent, rappers who make it sound cool to kill cops, and sex (well okay sex is a good thing – but I wouldn’t want my 12 or 13 year old kid hearing some of those lyrics!)

Secondly is where a lot of people’s mindset is heading these days when it comes to taking responsibility for ones own actions. This is probably my biggest pet peeve. This has nothing to do with social status, gender, race, religion or anything else. There are a lot of people who do not know how to take responsibility for their own actions. I don’t know where it all started or how it got to be this bad, but no one can deny that it is a huge part of American society. Personally I think it comes from the political correct crowd, but that is just me.

We live in an era where people blame fast food business for their obesity, not themselves for eating it, not themselves for not exercising – no it must be someone else’s fault.

People blame guns and the manufacturers of the guns for murders – People kill people - period.

Cigarette manufacturers are sued for cancer even though anyone with half a brain cell should know that smoking is going to cause problems (yeah, I know it and still smoke – that is my fault!)

3600 abortions are performed daily, most of which are from people who won’t take responsibility for their own actions.

Hey – if I drink too much and wreck my car it isn’t my fault, the bartender shouldn’t have kept on serving me – right? NO – WRONG!!

And, don’t get me started on the lazy f*cks who expect a welfare check. I see them from time to time. Yeah, we get them where I work – they come in as temps and are offered a pretty good starting wage, but they never last long. They work long enough to make it look like a good attempt and then they are back to sitting their lazy asses on the sofa, smoking cigarettes and watching the tube while we pay taxes to take care of them.

Okay, I could go on and on, but I hope that I made the point I was attempting to make. I watch American Idol and I guess from day one I could not stand to watch Fantasia. It is not that she didn’t have a stage presence or that she couldn’t sing – It was that she was never wrong and could never accept any constructive criticism. That bothered me more than anything. But, after reading the original article that I posted, I really can’t stand her now – she is the opposite of everything that I have worked hard for in my life.

[ZappasXWife]

Byndrsn, your original post did get me fired up...I do agree with many points you made in your last post, but that letter was stupid. Can you agree with me that Patriotism has nothing to do with anything Fantasia has done? That is my main beef with the letter. BTW, I have no idea who she is or what this show is, Zappaswife watches no TV.

It makes perfect sense to me. Reward a job well done and do NOT reward a job NOT well done. The badly performing school district has an incentive to do better and the ones who did well can expand and allow more kids into their superior learning system. The parents in the badly performing school district have the obligation to make changes.

Well of course there is that way of looking at it, BUT, let me ask you this: If a school district has a large Special Ed program (and perhaps a very good special ed program) do you feel that makes it a school district that should not get funding because it is not performing well with regard to PSSA's? Because, guess what, that is exactly what is happening. All kids are tested whether they are learning disabled, severely mentally handicapped, or gifted. And all scores count toward the total. I do know a little bit about this and have been battling back & forth with state lawmakers on this issue for personal reasons.
then...

I take offense to the federal bureacracy poking its nose in places where its not supposed to. If you really want to mess up the educational system, the feds can do it faster than anybody.

YES!! And they are messing it up by not implementing it properly, using scare tactics on LD kids who have no chance in hell of passing that test, and taking creativity away from teachers. I had thought lonewolf was for PSSA's but I guess not?

Or we could just condemn her for having a child out of wedlock and then make fun of her grammar skills. That would be the easier thing to do.

LOL bassist, right on. You rock. You forgot this part:
we could just condemn her for having a child out of wedlock, blame it on being un-American, and then make fun of her grammar skills.

[esa]

I have mixed feelings about the PSSA statement. I mean, I went to Catholic schools all my life... private schools if you will....and we had IOWA tests and what not. I've been working at this public school thing for a few years now and I never heard of PSSA's until I started here. I think you should reward your schools for having top grades...for passing those tests and showing you learned something...that your teacher was good enough to make a difference in your (educational) life. They should get rewards. It's like working your ass off at work and getting the bonus pay at the end of the year while mr. photo-copy-huffer who builds pyramids from paperclips gets squat. could you imagine him getting your bonus for doing jack while you worked your fingers off and got nothing.
The schools that don't do well are monitored and when they show that there is no improvement, then things happen. the kids can go to other schools (with out cost to parents)... they will get new heads of education and new teachers. it's not like they do nothing for the under-achievers.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I honestly can't stand much of the rap songs that are played today. "My boo left me and my shorty is gone but I got a ho that is willing to get freaky in my bed and fk those who are jealous of me." Okay...true, oldies were the same way... Jack and Diane..."go off behind the bushes let me do what I please"... Board walk song..."Under the board walk, out of the sun, under the board walk we could be havin' some fun..." Okay..."making love" back in the day was just messing around...heavy kissing. Now we have songs that tell you to bend over and touch your toes because you're lucky enough he's paying you that much attention. Elvis might have had the pelvis from hell, but I don't remember him telling any girl to do that in "Love me Tender"...

I hear the songs about the girls that did get themselves in trouble but have done alot to make their lives better. If their song is about their struggle to make their lives better and their kids lives better... then more power to them. Change your life around. Cool. Here's a cookie and good for you. But for the ones that are crying about how the man does jack for them and they don't get off their lazy hind quarters.... ::shakes head:: stop your fkin' wining and get a real job. I hear it enough from real people, I don't want to hear that wailing at me from the radio.
Don't get me wrong, sometimes you are down on your luck.. that is what welfare and unemployment are for. To help you get back on your feet and then to get off it after your life gets back in order. Not to get you off your feet and into a recliner.

[songsmith]

I'm kinda with LoneWolf on this one... where is moderate thought? Those in the media, liberals and dittoheads alike, would have us believe that if you are not out in the parking lot with a bull horn, either shouting "Repent all ye sinners!" or "Meat is murder!", then you should have no say. They tend to see everything in black and white, and it ALWAYS relates to their personal beliefs. I am not religious, and no, I never will be: faith is the evidence of things not seen, and I believe it when I see it. Don't like that? Too bad. See ya in Hell (my personal belief is when you die, you're worm food. I accept it.). On the other hand, I don't think anyone has life any harder than anyone else, and to assume you do means you're discriminating against ME. Everybody has their own personal row to hoe. Don't like that? Too bad. Shut up and hoe. However, because we are all individuals possessing the biological urge to survive and procreate, we must cover our own asses, hence the selfishness of political thought. This creates a lot of grey area... moderation, if you will.
I also completely agree with ZappasWife ( smart women...mmmmmm!) when she says patriotism has been replaced by conservative dogma. The way I remember it, America was formed when the people realized Colonial Rule sucked, and openly disagreed with their government. Obviously I wouldn't support revolution and overthrow, but dissent is not just patriotic, it's necessary to progress and growth. Plush Limbaugh would have you believe we'd be better off if there was no liberal thought, no Democratic Party, but then, that wouldn't be a democracy... no checks, no balances. I love my country. I don't give a shit how many magnetic ribbons you have on your car, you are no more patriotic than I am. You have the Constitutional right to support your candidate. Guess what? Me, too. If my ideas conflict with yours, so be it.
I think the whole "if you're not with us, you're against us" thing got carried away. GWB wasn't talking to the American people at that point, he was addressing the world, assuring them there was no place for terrorists to hide. He wasn't referring to liberals. That's Rush-speak, and that's propaganda in it's purest form, from an admitted junkie who thinks the world's out to get him.
As for Fantasia's Baby-Daddy drama... tough boogies. If you're attracted to players, you get played. If it looks like a snake, crawls like a snake, lives in a hole like a snake, and you crawl in that hole with it, why are you surprised to get bitten? And why would I feel the need to help you? Nobody bails me out of my bad decisions. Simply falling for the American Idol-route to stardom tells me she doesn't understand the first thing about paying dues, musically, or in life. Respect is EARNED, not expected, and earned by hard work, not doled out by Simon f*cking Cowell (his contribution to music is the Spice Girls!??!!!). Having a good voice is not enough, like having a nice Strat doesn't make you Eric Clapton. People need to quit watching this crap, so it goes to being on Saturday afternoons on the WB, or something. It was played 20 years ago when Star Search did it. Jeez Louise, how shallow can we get!
___END OF POST-HOLIDAY DIET-INDUCED RANT___
---------------->JMS

[Ron]

... I don't give a shit how many magnetic ribbons you have on your car, you are no more patriotic than I am ...

Sorry to all of those out there trying to be patriotic, but those magnetic ribbons also piss me off to no extent. Why? They are all made in friggin' China. These things don't help our troops... they help the money grubbing, outsourcing pricks who are using so-called patriotism to sell a worthless piece of metalized plastic.

If you want to support our country, save your money on those worthless pieces of crap, and go give some blood or volunteer for a community service. Patriotism can't be bought at uni-mart.

[byndrsn]

Zappaswife,

I agree with you 100% about the patriotic stuff - it is blown way out of proportion by both political parties. It has nothing to do with Fantasia. Personally, I didn't even pay that much attention to that spin of things in the original post - most of what intrigued me was the stuff I replied about this morning.



Lisa,

Well, you would really know a lot about what happens in our schools since you see it every day.



Songsmith,

Loved your post - seriously!! Great thoughts man!!
But, I have to admit, I am mostly interested in your statement about being "worm food" after death. I must ask you, although it is up to you if you wish to respond or not: Do you believe in anything or are you an atheist? I'm asking mostly because I was raised Catholic and am now an atheist. Just curious.

Urbs

[songsmith]

I see myself as a secular humanist, or maybe scientist. I don't necessarily doubt that there is a God, but I see so many versions of God to so many people, and each group of people thinks their version is the "correct" version, that it would appear that God is "created" by humans to explain what we can't explain, and to ease our fears that when we die, we cease to exist (I'm not afraid of that, though).
Before I get flamed out of existence by those religious people in the forum, I must point out: I could be completely wrong. I do not, in any way, shape, or form, wish to sully anyone's personal beliefs, because they make you who you are. Believing in God doesn't make you stupid, or backward, or even conservative; it means you have it in your heart to believe, and I feel that is a wonderful quality to have. Religion brings hope to so many that it simply cannot be a "bad" thing... unless it is forced. If I ask you about God, tell me. If you insist on forcing me to believe your personal view, that's where it hits the fan.
I grew up in the Assembly of God church... Pentecostal, speaking in tongues, faith-healers, dresses only- no pants on women, evangelical-charismatic-fundamentalist to the highest degree. I could tell you horror stories all day long, but the short version is, it left a bad, bad taste in my mouth for religion in general. In short, if you didn't believe exactly what they did, you were on a fast track to Hell, no exceptions. Too many men telling me what God thinks of me, then passing the collection plate. They once said, and I'm not paraphrasing, that the Catholic church is a cult that prays to idols.
So basically, I'm not against God, I just have my own views, and I'm a show-me-the-money kind of guy.

And Ron, those ribbons really irk me, for the same reason. On the news last week, they had a story about the company that came up with the ribbons, which were originally to benefit military families, and how this company is going out of business because of the Chinese knockoffs. Buy American!------>JMS

[BDR]

I like beans...

r:>)

[bassist_25]

Wow, I saw 17 post for this thread I was expecting people to be on the verge of killng each other. I was pleasantly surprised when I saw some exciting discussion going on.

The first thing is that it ticks me off looking at some of the entertainers (athletes, musicians, etc.) that are idolized by today’s youth. Many of these individuals do not deserve to be looked up to by anyone – let alone impressionable young people. It is kind of funny to look back to when Elvis first started or when the Beatles were just hitting the scene and adults were upset about it. Look how far down the shitter things have gone since then!! Now we have artists who are spouting out songs that are just plain angry and violent, rappers who make it sound cool to kill cops, and sex (well okay sex is a good thing – but I wouldn’t want my 12 or 13 year old kid hearing some of those lyrics!)

Secondly is where a lot of people’s mindset is heading these days when it comes to taking responsibility for ones own actions. This is probably my biggest pet peeve. This has nothing to do with social status, gender, race, religion or anything else. There are a lot of people who do not know how to take responsibility for their own actions. I don’t know where it all started or how it got to be this bad, but no one can deny that it is a huge part of American society. Personally I think it comes from the political correct crowd, but that is just me.

We live in an era where people blame fast food business for their obesity, not themselves for eating it, not themselves for not exercising – no it must be someone else’s fault.

People blame guns and the manufacturers of the guns for murders – People kill people - period.

Cigarette manufacturers are sued for cancer even though anyone with half a brain cell should know that smoking is going to cause problems (yeah, I know it and still smoke – that is my fault!)

3600 abortions are performed daily, most of which are from people who won’t take responsibility for their own actions.

Hey – if I drink too much and wreck my car it isn’t my fault, the bartender shouldn’t have kept on serving me – right? NO – WRONG!!

Tom, believe it or not, I agree with you on many of those points. I'm in the weird situation of being a libertarian (well, a minarchist who believes in some socialist programs if you want to get technical), so I agree with many conservative views.

And, don’t get me started on the lazy f*cks who expect a welfare check. I see them from time to time. Yeah, we get them where I work – they come in as temps and are offered a pretty good starting wage, but they never last long. They work long enough to make it look like a good attempt and then they are back to sitting their lazy asses on the sofa, smoking cigarettes and watching the tube while we pay taxes to take care of them.

This though is a gross generalization. The right-wing tries to spin the welfare issue as though everyone recieving government aid wants to recieve government aid. Believe me, there are many people on welfare who HATE being on welfare. If we're throwing out anecdotes on people we know.......A gentleman I attend school with was forced onto disability after driving truck since he graduated high school. He went for a routine physical and when the doctor found something wrong with him (I forget what the alignment was, but I know that it wouldn't impair his truck driving ability) he was relieved of his job due to the company's insurance liability. Believe me - he's very bitter about his situation. Of course he's in school trying to learn a new craft, but he wouldn't be there without a socialist saftey net. Let's not forget many of the elderly who are laid-off from their factory jobs and can't get hired at anywhere but McDonald's due to their age.

[bassist_25]

I'm kinda with LoneWolf on this one... where is moderate thought? Those in the media, liberals and dittoheads alike, would have us believe that if you are not out in the parking lot with a bull horn, either shouting "Repent all ye sinners!" or "Meat is murder!", then you should have no say. They tend to see everything in black and white, and it ALWAYS relates to their personal beliefs.

Fershizzle.

That's what a pundit's job is, spin everything and then get the reactionary extremes all riled up.

As for Fantasia's Baby-Daddy drama... tough boogies. If you're attracted to players, you get played. If it looks like a snake, crawls like a snake, lives in a hole like a snake, and you crawl in that hole with it, why are you surprised to get bitten? And why would I feel the need to help you? Nobody bails me out of my bad decisions. Simply falling for the American Idol-route to stardom tells me she doesn't understand the first thing about paying dues, musically, or in life. Respect is EARNED, not expected, and earned by hard work, not doled out by Simon f*cking Cowell (his contribution to music is the Spice Girls!??!!!). Having a good voice is not enough, like having a nice Strat doesn't make you Eric Clapton. People need to quit watching this crap, so it goes to being on Saturday afternoons on the WB, or something. It was played 20 years ago when Star Search did it. Jeez Louise, how shallow can we get!

I look at it this way: the women went on a show that's manufactured, to play music that's manufactured, to become a star that is manufactured. It's throwaway music and I'm sure she knows that it's throwaway music. If her "music" makes some people happy, then great. I'm sure there's some kind of existential meaning in that thought somewhere, but I'm too lethargic to figure it out. Will she become a true artist and find a place in musical history by The Beatles, Bob Dylan, Miles Davis, and Hank Williams? I doubt it. She'll have her fifteen minutes and we'll be watching a "Where Are They Know?" show in 10 years. Hopefully she'll invests her new found wealth into some good blue chip stocks. Then again, I doubt that also.

I agree though; people need to quit watching that garbage. People need to quit watching reality shows in general (except Dog: The Bounty Hunter, which kicks ass). There's that new reality show about a girl trying to find her biological father out of a group of men. Is nothing sacred anymore? What's even worse is there are people with Harvard MBA's, sitting around boardrooms coming up with this crap. I think I found the topic of my graduate thesis: Reality Shows: A Commentary on Today's Social Values?

[bassist_25]

I see myself as a secular humanist, or maybe scientist. I don't necessarily doubt that there is a God, but I see so many versions of God to so many people, and each group of people thinks their version is the "correct" version, that it would appear that God is "created" by humans to explain what we can't explain, and to ease our fears that when we die, we cease to exist (I'm not afraid of that, though).
Before I get flamed out of existence by those religious people in the forum, I must point out: I could be completely wrong. I do not, in any way, shape, or form, wish to sully anyone's personal beliefs, because they make you who you are. Believing in God doesn't make you stupid, or backward, or even conservative; it means you have it in your heart to believe, and I feel that is a wonderful quality to have. Religion brings hope to so many that it simply cannot be a "bad" thing... unless it is forced. If I ask you about God, tell me. If you insist on forcing me to believe your personal view, that's where it hits the fan.
I grew up in the Assembly of God church... Pentecostal, speaking in tongues, faith-healers, dresses only- no pants on women, evangelical-charismatic-fundamentalist to the highest degree. I could tell you horror stories all day long, but the short version is, it left a bad, bad taste in my mouth for religion in general. In short, if you didn't believe exactly what they did, you were on a fast track to Hell, no exceptions. Too many men telling me what God thinks of me, then passing the collection plate. They once said, and I'm not paraphrasing, that the Catholic church is a cult that prays to idols.
So basically, I'm not against God, I just have my own views, and I'm a show-me-the-money kind of guy.

And Ron, those ribbons really irk me, for the same reason. On the news last week, they had a story about the company that came up with the ribbons, which were originally to benefit military families, and how this company is going out of business because of the Chinese knockoffs. Buy American!------>JMS

Two events have happened over the holidays that gave me theological perspective.

First: I have entrusted all of my major life decisions to a plastic incarnation of Yoda. While I have never really subscribed to the Jedi faith, I see Yoda as a spiritual teacher whose wisdom transcends dogma. After last Saturday's gig, I was contemplating my post-show dinner. I asked Yoda if I should get a Sheetz MTO wrap and he gave me an answer shrouded in mystery. I was like, "Yoda, I wasn't asking for the ontological meaning of life. I just wanted to know if I should get the damn wrap!" What I didn't realize was Yoda was presenting the answer to me in a hidden form, much like the parables taught by Jesus and Buddha. I quickly realized the answer was no and asked if I should get the fajitas instead. Yoda told me that it would be so.

In all seriousness though.....

I recently read a book by Philip K. Dick (thanks again for the recommendation, Kent) called the Divine Invasion. It totally blew away my perception of God. I don't want to give to much away; you'll have to read the book for yourself.

[byndrsn]

And, don’t get me started on the lazy f*cks who expect a welfare check. I see them from time to time. Yeah, we get them where I work – they come in as temps and are offered a pretty good starting wage, but they never last long. They work long enough to make it look like a good attempt and then they are back to sitting their lazy asses on the sofa, smoking cigarettes and watching the tube while we pay taxes to take care of them.

This though is a gross generalization. The right-wing tries to spin the welfare issue as though everyone recieving government aid wants to recieve government aid. Believe me, there are many people on welfare who HATE being on welfare. If we're throwing out anecdotes on people we know.......A gentleman I attend school with was forced onto disability after driving truck since he graduated high school. He went for a routine physical and when the doctor found something wrong with him (I forget what the alignment was, but I know that it wouldn't impair his truck driving ability) he was relieved of his job due to the company's insurance liability. Believe me - he's very bitter about his situation. Of course he's in school trying to learn a new craft, but he wouldn't be there without a socialist saftey net. Let's not forget many of the elderly who are laid-off from their factory jobs and can't get hired at anywhere but McDonald's due to their age.

Paul, I know that we agree on some thing - more than we could probably imagine, and I don't want you to think I am disagreeing with what you said above.

Instead, I just want you to reread my first sentence of that paragraph. THe key words are "lazy f*cks" and "expect". I'm not talking about people who truly need a hand or those that are temporarily down on their luck. I feel for those folks and believe that that was what the original idea behind the welfare program was intended for. On the other hand I have seen many instances of folks taking advantage of the welfare program, and I have seen it first hand. And that is around little old Cambria and Blair Counties. I can't even imagine what it is like in the bigger cities where welfare is more prominent.

Let me give you an example of what I mean. My wife had to intern at a Pharmacy in downtown Pittsburgh - she could tell you stories about welfare recipients, but that may be against HIPPA regulations so..... I will tell you that at that time, if you were on welfare, you could get 90 condoms a month. 90!!!! A MONTH!!!! That comes out to 3 a day!!!! Either these ladies that were taking advantage of that program were really bored or they didn't need welfare from all the cash they were making between the sheets. 90!!!! That really blows my mind.

And that only leads to one more point about the Fantasia deal - there is no excuse to accidently get pregnant anymore. I know many of you are going to get on me for that statement, but it is something that I really believe. These days sex is such an open subject - the information is so available today. No, I think a lot of young girls try to get pregnant - like it is cool or something. Hell, I've known a couple of woman who actually thought it was in their best interest to get knocked up in order to try to hold on to a marriage or relationship - yeah, it didn't work like they had hoped.

Wow, I got way off the subject - I must get back to work - break is over!!!

[FatVin]

The end source, of all the evils that have been discussed on this string, is lack of education. We've left education to the state and the communities and they have fumbled it. Want Proof?

Many schools across this country have No Art, No Music, Barely any Advanced placement programs, Why?

Because They need the money that would normally go for these things to buy Kevlar vests and metal detectors, Why?

Because Somebody got the idea that Freedom and license were the same thing. Example.......

Most people think that the 2nd Amendment to our Constitution says that we have to right to bear arms....WRONG

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Most people who support the NRA will tell forget about the first phrase and skip right on over the second. It's clear that when the framers allowed the people to keep and bear arms they had a specific purpose for the use of those arms in mind. The defense of the Nation but if you're a Gun Manufacturer or a member of NRA's lobbying committee that first phrase in the 2nd Amendment is inconvenient so they tend to gloss over it. If we had a better educational sytem in this country, we'd talking about this like grown-ups, making a distinction between the 30-30 reasonable law abiding people take out to hunt deer and the AK-47 with RPG attachment that gun-nuts, drug lords and terrorists buy at NRA sponsored gun shows every day.

now we have gun too many guns and not enough money and teachers in our classrooms

Now in the interest of fairness, let me take a swipe at the left....

If we had a better educational system in this country, we would know how to mange our resouces better, we could create jobs for all and business could flourish without depleting our natural resources so that 60's holdovers wouldn't have to chain themselves to trees.

A better educational system would limit the need to welfare and social programs because it make more people employable. To limit the need for welfare is to limit the opportunity for abuse of Welfare, whch is what many of you are complaining about. Welfare and other Social programs are our responsibility to those who cannot help themselves but our case they have become rife with abuse both by the lazy and by those within the system, if it were run correctly. it would be harder to abuse. A better educational system would help that. We wouldn't have to worry as much about single moms because boys would know what happens when "The little Captain" leads you into battle and girls would have the sense to stop looking for respect on their backs and their knees.

A better educational system would give those women who do find themselves in a bad place the full menu of options about what to with respect to a child they can't take care of and leave such akward decisions in the hands of themselves and their doctors and counselors, not some old white male politicians trying to make points with people who think "Leave it to Beaver" was a series documentary on the American family and not a make-believe sitcom.

A better educational system in this country would expose racism for the idiocy that it is, we would worry about someone who doesn't speak english well because we know they'd learn sooner or later and if not, so what, I can always learn to Habla, or Sprechen or whatever, cause lernin is not somethin to fear.

A better educational system would show us all that freedom and license aren't the same thing, the first amendment gives us freedom to say what we want but you don't have license to shout "fire" in crowded theater.

A better educational system would show us all that Patriotism isn't a bad thing but like all things it must be tempered with common sense. It is possible to Support our brave and noble fighting soldiers in the field of battle and wish for their safe and swift return and still think Bush is a nimrod.

A better educational system would show us all that religion too is a fine thing if taken in moderation, and a person's relationship with whatever deity he or she chooses to recoknize is their own private business.

and by the way WHERE DOES THE RIGHT GET OFF CO-OPTING JESUS? It is the meek who are to inherit the earth not the fiscally conservative. I dare one of you right wingers to show me the Bible verse where it specifically says "He who voted for Clinton shall not enter the kingdom of Heaven".

I am not an athiest, I am agnostic (God? Yes, Church? No) and from where I sit the Church and this applies to Protestant, Evangelical, Catholic, whatever) is spending too much time on material matters, like which party hold the Dog Catcher 's seat in Pig's Knuckle county and too little time preaching the message of peace and the brotherhood of man.

Of course, it could be worse, in Northern Ireland they are killing each other with guns and pipe bombs of which version of the message of peace and the brotherhood of man is the correct one (figure that one out)

EDUCATION is the silver bullet to a lot of America's ills. It should be like the Defense Department, incredibly expensive for Government but free for the citizens. We need better education in this country to fix a lot of the other problems. The States and the local communities have had their shot at it, it's time for National Educational Standards.


and by the way a Better educational system would lead the way to better Art and better music so hacks like Simon Crowell and his ilk would be pushed to the bargin bins where they belong, sooner rather than later.

[Ron]

I agree 100% Vin.

My only twist is that all the teachers, schools and money in the world won't help our educational drought as long as education is looked at as 'uncool' by a large portion of today's youth.

So many of today's role models are drop-outs, ex-cons, and/or beautiful morons. Today's society is a big ol' popularity contest, and nobody wins a popularity contest because of their ability to do a math problem or spell correctly.

We also have tons of kids going from high school to the major sports leagues or the pop-music biz... all the while sending the message that education isn't important as long as you have lots of money.

Ask a teen today why they need to go to college, and I'll bet that most will say "So I get a good job that pays a lot". Sadly, greed fuels the education system just like the rest of our country. Granted, some of us truly want to help society, but most are just looking for a paycheck, and education for a paycheck doesn't help society on the scale that is needed.

[lonewolf]

"Most people think that the 2nd Amendment to our Constitution says that we have to right to bear arms....WRONG"

No, RIGHT. We've been over this. Federal law dictates that you and I and any adult capable of using firearms are considered militia. The National Guard just happens to be one organization of militia sanctioned by the state.

The only direct Supreme Court ruling on the 2nd amendment was based on this premise. It also set the precedent for allowing gun control because the court did not consider a sawed-off shotgun to be a legitimate militia weapon. Had the defendant been in possession of a Thompson machine gun instead of a sawed-off, gun control would probably be illegal.