SUBS - When is it too much ? When is it not enough ?

[Hawk]

We were talking last night. Is the sub thing a generational thing ? Is old school a balance of lows, mids and highs ? Do you actually (physically) want to feel the low end ?

It seems to me that there are bands I want to feel the subs and there are bands I just want to hear the subs and not feel the pounding.

Opinions? Discuss please.

[tonefight]

Oh there can definatly be too much, when the kick drum is twice as loud as the lead vocals thats too much. Alot of sound guys seem to want to impress everyone with how loud they can make the kick drum and forget about the rest of the band.
Don't get me wrong a good sounding kick is great but there's a limit.

[shell_shooter]

I would say it might come down to the song there are allot of high energy songs being played that i would crank the bass up on so the people FEEL the energy and it makes them want to get out on the dance floor,then there are those songs where i am just chillin drinking a beer and i don't want to feel my stomache turn cause the bass is so loud.So if you could pay some guy to sit there and make adjustments thru out the night that would be great .I guess that would be the sound guy. but i guess that would be personal opinion cause a song i might want it louder on another might not

[lonewolf]

Subs are an engineering problem. I have had many PMs about this subject recently and have thought about writing an "introductory" treatise on subs for local venues.

More on that later.

The best subs in the world will NOT WORK very well in a typical local venue.

Many local sound "engineers" will recommend 100 foot throw EAWs in a 50 foot room...

WRONG....

[Flaw]

i find it unnecessary to have subs turned up so loud, as to where being in the audience, you feel every kick in your chest.

[Naga]

i find it unnecessary to have subs turned up so loud, as to where being in the audience, you feel every kick in your chest.

+1. If I want to be kicked in the chest, I'll go piss someone off, and tell him/her that's what I want

I see plenty of shows, and too much high, mid or low destroys. Feeling like someone just sucker-punched your lungs out doesn't work, nor does feeling your brain fry from practical screeching

[VENTGtr]

For a lot of places, they're unnecessary. We've had this discussion many times. I've kind
of gotten to look at it, like you said, as a generational thing to a large extent. Used to be
you had to have all this gear. But, nowadays, speakers, etc. are a lot more efficient and
cover a broader range.

Don't need these massive scooped monsters taking up the whole "stage" area. There are
a lot of times when you go see someone and it's a mass of "thuddy" mess and a lot of the
other frequencies are missing.

For a long time, we went without them entirely and were fine. Lately, we've been running
one sub at some places, but what's coming through there is very judiciously monitored.

Seems a lot of "old school" sound, or even band guys, seem to want to haul in all that stuff
and it HAS to be running, and you HAVE to feel that kick drum, or lowest bass note in the
gullet...actual good sound be damned. Granted, can look impressive if you have the room,
but don't need it and who in the WORLD wants to load that stuff in/out.

[lonewolf]

For a lot of places, they're unnecessary.

Exactly. There aren't many local venues that need complete instrument miking and subs to handle it.

In the event that you do want to use subs, a short to medium throw sub will do much, much better in these rooms than the big long throw cargo crates. When used, they need to be treated as another component in the system rather than a DOD test project to see if you can homogenize human brains.

My favorite pet peeve with sub processors is the subharmonic synthesizer. They even give you a control just to generate even more unintelligible noise. It has the added plus of generating the lowest frequencies that suck up a lot of your amps' power and put them closer to clipping.

A sub is a part of a multi-frequency-range speaker system. That system needs to be set up so that it will reproduce a relatively flat, seamless frequency response for the room conditions across the system's usable frequency range--nothing more, nothing less. Unfortunately, subs are commonly misused as "kick drum amps". If you want to accentuate the kick drum, fine. Set the subs up for a flat system response and then tweak the kick drum channel(s) within reasonable limits.

I like chest thumps too, but not at the expense of clarity.

[JackANSI]

For a lot of places, they're unnecessary.

Exactly. There aren't many local venues that need complete instrument miking and subs to handle it.

In the event that you do want to use subs, a short to medium throw sub will do much, much better in these rooms than the big long throw cargo crates. When used, they need to be treated as another component in the system rather than a DOD test project to see if you can homogenize human brains.

I'm always amazed to find out how much speaker and wattage a "pro" sound guy thinks a room will need. (and how they never seem to know that the volume knobs spin in two directions)

Then some of the bands that hire them wonder why the PLCB is hounding places for noise constantly.

After seeing a few rather large names playing in small places out of state, and NOT coming out at the end of the night with any ringing in my ears at all, I could talk loudly to the person next to me 30 feet from the stage and still hear just fine (but I couldn't hear anyone else's conversations over the band), and talk-to instead of YELL-at the bartender... I'm just dumbfounded by many locals' idea of good sound.

And even more stumped why people would go out and try to have a good time with their friends without being able to hear a word they are saying.

[moxham123]

Oh there can definatly be too much, when the kick drum is twice as loud as the lead vocals thats too much. Alot of sound guys seem to want to impress everyone with how loud they can make the kick drum and forget about the rest of the band.
Don't get me wrong a good sounding kick is great but there's a limit.

I agree. The kick drum should be no louder than the bass guitar. I have heard some bands where the kick drum drowns out everything else. I can never figure out why some sound guys spend 30 minutes making the drummer keep hitting the kick drum until it is killing and then mix the rest of the band around it.

[Hayf]

We were talking last night...

That would be the British Invasion's swan song performance at the Bavarian Hall.

Considering the venue, it's hard to tell what you were experiencing because your location relative to the speakers would have a very significant impact on exactly what you experience from the sub's in that room. Stage is located along the wrong wall, so there is a cacophony of reflected sound occurring at all times and frequencies.

I didn't hear any rumors that you pooped your pants, so hopefully you didn't find the sub's too offensive. Thanks for supporting the band, Bill. We had a great time Sat. night. Glad you where there.

H

[Hawk]

We were talking last night...

That would be the British Invasion's swan song performance at the Bavarian Hall.

Considering the venue, it's hard to tell what you were experiencing because your location relative to the speakers would have a very significant impact on exactly what you experience from the sub's in that room. Stage is located along the wrong wall, so there is a cacophony of reflected sound occurring at all times and frequencies.

I didn't hear any rumors that you pooped your pants, so hopefully you didn't find the sub's too offensive. Thanks for supporting the band, Bill. We had a great time Sat. night. Glad you where there.

H

Actually, from where Joe and I were sitting, the balance was very good. We (correctly or incorrectly) called it old school. We liked it (although we both had our ear plugs in). But we didn't feel that pounding on our chests, which we defined as new school.

That was what made me ask what other musicians thought about pounding subs in this thread.

(I know, the Bavarian Hall Ballroom has it's share of acoustic problems, and the balance and clarity greatly depends on where you're sitting.)

[MeYatch]

A sub is a part of a multi-frequency-range speaker system. That system needs to be set up so that it will reproduce a relatively flat, seamless frequency response for the room conditions across the system's usable frequency range--nothing more, nothing less. Unfortunately, subs are commonly misused as "kick drum amps". If you want to accentuate the kick drum, fine. Set the subs up for a flat system response and then tweak the kick drum channel(s) within reasonable limits.

this. I can't say I've ever even thought "I should turn the subs up" I just expect the subs to do their job of reproducing their part of the frequency range.

[bassist_25]

[

The kick drum should be no louder than the bass guitar. I have heard some bands where the kick drum drowns out everything else.

A big issue is when the kick drum and bass guitar aren't properly mixed and end up fighting for frequencies, often somewhere around 30hz. The term "bass guitar" is somewhat a misnomer. It's more about register than frequencies. The 2nd and 3rd harmonics of a bass guitar are well above the bass area, and even some of the fundamentals would probably be classified as midrange. There are two-way and three-way biamped bass rigs because the instrument is quite three-dimensional. It's not just gobs of low end and nothing else as many people believe. Sadly, some of those people have been in the music business for years. The majority of a bass guitar's sound should be coming through the mid range drivers.

[ToonaRockGuy]

I don't mind da thump of a sub, but there's a reason that I don't tune my kick drum at JAW (Just Above a Wrinkle) to get that huge bottom end. I like some musical tone out of my kick drum, and I work hard to get it tuned where I want it, and then it gets just drowned out by the massive amounts of bottom end from the subs. Zilly at 30 Something has always given me a decent kick sound.

[PanzerFaust]

I thought the PA mix for the British Invasion on Sat night was awsome...... That's why I sat right next to the board.. it's usually the "sweet spot" in the room..... and by "sweet spot" I mean the place where you can see the max amount of booty on the dance floor haha....

[PanzerFaust]

P.S alittle off topic.. But when am I not... I think Ricks solo in Highway Star smoked... and his sound was great....

[Hawk]

I thought the PA mix for the British Invasion on Sat night was awsome...... That's why I sat right next to the board.. it's usually the "sweet spot" in the room..... and by "sweet spot" I mean the place where you can see the max amount of booty on the dance floor haha....

I agree it was well done! It sounded a bit garbled when I was over by the bar, but I realized that was a reflection (pun intended) of the room's acoustics.

[PanzerFaust]

BTW... I'm a little bummed... I thought this was a topic on 6' versus 12' Subway subs.....

[bassist_25]

BTW... I'm a little bummed... I thought this was a topic on 6' versus 12' Subway subs.....

You can't go wrong with the 12" spicy Italian. With the five dollar foot long special, it's a much better value than the 6" spicy Italian.

[Banned]

P.S alittle off topic.. But when am I not... I think Ricks solo in Highway Star smoked... and his sound was great....

I did sit next to Bill at the British Invasion show (sadly their last) and the sound was great. It sounded like the way the music they play was recorded, where you can hear all the instruments just about equally. The vocals seemed to be just a little out in front of the instruments, which is where it should be.

Rick W was great on guitar, I love his Pink Floyd solos. Harold was great on the Floyd, Who and especially the Uriah Heep which one rarely hears played these days. Did they nail Kasmir by Zep or what?

Having subs in this mix would have ruined the night, IMHO. All that British rock music was not recorded to be played through subs. Old school rock.

[Flaw]

[

The kick drum should be no louder than the bass guitar. I have heard some bands where the kick drum drowns out everything else.

A big issue is when the kick drum and bass guitar aren't properly mixed and end up fighting for frequencies, often somewhere around 30hz. The term "bass guitar" is somewhat a misnomer. It's more about register than frequencies. The 2nd and 3rd harmonics of a bass guitar are well above the bass area, and even some of the fundamentals would probably be classified as midrange. There are two-way and three-way biamped bass rigs because the instrument is quite three-dimensional. It's not just gobs of low end and nothing else as many people believe. Sadly, some of those people have been in the music business for years. The majority of a bass guitar's sound should be coming through the mid range drivers.

i don't know half of that means but it sounds pretty sexy.

[bsaller]

Regarding the bass guitar and bass drum. Most professional sound technicians don't want a tone or note from the bass drum, they prefer to get a thump out of it. This keeps the bass drum from interfering tonally with the bass guitar and causing a blurred low end. Another problem is some soundmen don't use a 80-100hz cut filter on the board. Only the bass guitar, fl. tom, and keys should have to low cut fliter off.

[lonewolf]

[

The kick drum should be no louder than the bass guitar. I have heard some bands where the kick drum drowns out everything else.

A big issue is when the kick drum and bass guitar aren't properly mixed and end up fighting for frequencies, often somewhere around 30hz.

Most subs you see around here have a lowest usable frequency spec of around 40-50hz and if they are properly set up, there will be a high-pass filter at around 35-45hz. 25hz and 32hz are also common fixed filters.

If you have a guitar with a bass B string, well, bummer, eh?

Aside from this, most sounds below 40hz are unintelligible rumble anyway--subharmonic noise that sucks up valuable subbass amplifier power in huge gulps. You will get better overall sound clarity if you use a steep (24db/octave) high-pass filter at around 36hz.

99% of bass drums' have a fundamental frequency above 40hz, so that's not a range problem....it should be noted that "chest thump" occurs in the midrange area around 150-300hz. That's above most subs' recommended crossover frequency, so it ends up tasking the midrange driver and competing with vocals.

Ah irony...the "meat" of the kick drum doesn't even come out of the subs.

[Jones]

A little thump and a hint of 80s "click" makes for a nice kick mix. The biggest problem I see locally is there are too many guys/techs that know how to set the gear up but don't have an ear or know what exactly the equipment does. How many of you running your own stuff don't use vocal comps? Oh and the worst offense is the smiley curve eq. Flatten it out and use it for what it was intended.