Spread the wealth or Spread the risk ?

[Hawk]

I'll say straight up that this is a spin. But it is also another way of looking at things from a liberal perspective.

How would life be if all police and fire departments were private ? And you would have to carry insurance to cover their fee any time you needed them ?

Someone burglarises your house, you call the police, they show up - maybe catch the thief or maybe not - but when the leave they hand you a bill for $1,000 for services rendered.

Your house catches fire and you call the fire department. The spend 5 hours at your house and hand you a bill for $10,000.

In other words, only those who use it pay for it. And you need insurance to cover it if you ever need their services.

Think how much insurance companies would charge you for insurance coverage to cover these costs ? I suspect that your premiums would be more than your tax segment that already covers these services.

But the "risk" and "costs" of needing police or a fire company is spread around to everyone via our taxes. Thus keeping the costs under control. That's what I mean by "Spread the risk".

That's how I view health care insurance. If we spread the risk in the same way we cover police and fire the costs would come down.

[lonewolf]

I'll say straight up that this is a spin. But it is also another way of looking at things from a liberal perspective.

How would life be if all police and fire departments were private ? And you would have to carry insurance to cover their fee any time you needed them ?

Someone burglarises your house, you call the police, they show up - maybe catch the thief or maybe not - but when the leave they hand you a bill for $1,000 for services rendered.

Your house catches fire and you call the fire department. The spend 5 hours at your house and hand you a bill for $10,000.

In other words, only those who use it pay for it. And you need insurance to cover it if you ever need their services.

Think how much insurance companies would charge you for insurance coverage to cover these costs ? I suspect that your premiums would be more than your tax segment that already covers these services.

But the "risk" and "costs" of needing police or a fire company is spread around to everyone via our taxes. Thus keeping the costs under control. That's what I mean by "Spread the risk".

That's how I view health care insurance. If we spread the risk in the same way we cover police and fire the costs would come down.

Spin? No, this goes way beyond that. You are citing basic public safety services provided by state & local governments as per their respective constitutions. They are the basic reasons we form government. BTW, fire departments were formed to prevent fires from spreading throughout the municipality, not with the individual property in mind.

While healthcare service is now deemed to be a public safety service, health insurance is not.

Your idea of spreading the risk to reduce costs is illogical. While it may have a localized short term effect on health insurance in a zero sum situation, applying it universally to health insurance would only increase the macro demand for health care services and result in an increase in healthcare costs. Unless, of course, there is rationing and price fixing.

We already have a shortage of doctors that results in upward pressure on health service costs. Who the hell would want to go thru 7-10 years of college to be a medical professional if the government is going to tell you how much you will make? What do you get? A drop in the supply of healthcare service providers and an increase in health service costs. We need more doctors, not fewer.

Allowing government bureaucracy to manage such a risk is scary at best and catastrophic at worst. Especially when their plans don't have anything to do with the basic problem...

By addressing the health insurance issue before/without addressing the problem of the rising cost of healthcare itself, our representatives show a distinct lack of understanding of the problem. Once again, they are putting a very big cart in front of the horse.

Bill, if you can't afford health insurance, may I suggest that you raise the price of a piano tuning?

[Hawk]

I have health insurance. This is not about me at all. If I was still covered under my wife's benefits, I would have still written this thread.

I think it comes down to: Is health insurance and access to doctors a right or a privilege ? I think everyone, in this modern society, should have the right to be covered by health insurance.

I know, everyone can go to emergency and get care. And that by itself keeps our costs high (along with other things). But try to go to a dentist or family doctor or a specialist or schedule some procedure like a colonoscopy without insurance. You'll likely be denied unless you can pay cash.

You're right about fire and police relative to the protection of the masses. But I believe that health care is another form of protection.

[lonewolf]

I think it comes down to: Is health insurance and access to doctors a right or a privilege ? I think everyone, in this modern society, should have the right to be covered by health insurance.

While nobody should be denied access to doctors, health insurance is a 2nd tier aftermarket product and should not ever be considered a right.

The emergency room situation is ridiculous and needs addressed. I don't know what the number is, but I would imagine that the present inflated prices that emergency rooms charge for dispensing non-emergency services might be enough to cover the cost of low-cost clinics at the same hospitals. I would start from there and work out a system of clinics before arming millions of people with a blank-check insurance card.

That would be more in tune with your comparison with police & fire departments.

[Hawk]

I think it comes down to: Is health insurance and access to doctors a right or a privilege ? I think everyone, in this modern society, should have the right to be covered by health insurance.

While nobody should be denied access to doctors, health insurance is a 2nd tier aftermarket product and should not ever be considered a right.

The emergency room situation is ridiculous and needs addressed. I don't know what the number is, but I would imagine that the present inflated prices that emergency rooms charge for dispensing non-emergency services might be enough to cover the cost of low-cost clinics at the same hospitals. I would start from there and work out a system of clinics before arming millions of people with a blank-check insurance card.

That would be more in tune with your comparison with police & fire departments.

Very Cool ! But what will it take to implement your ideas ? I still like my way of reasoning. But I'm for any ideas that make sense.

I don't get your first sentence ? You seem to stand with me that no one should be denied access, wouldn't that then be considered a right ?

[lonewolf]

I don't get your first sentence ? You seem to stand with me that no one should be denied access, wouldn't that then be considered a right ?

Like the 2nd amendment, I believe that we have the right to acquire and use health services if we so choose. As with guns under the right to keep and bear arms, the government is not obligated to supply you with those health services.

Pure human rights do not include the guarantee of any products or services, no matter how important they may be.

[slackin@dabass]

I don't get your first sentence ? You seem to stand with me that no one should be denied access, wouldn't that then be considered a right ?

Like the 2nd amendment, I believe that we have the right to acquire and use health services if we so choose. As with guns under the right to keep and bear arms, the government is not obligated to supply you with those health services.

Pure human rights do not include the guarantee of any products or services, no matter how important they may be.

+1

[Hawk]

"We have the right to...use health services if we so choose ."

Sorry to take your qoute without the full context, but this is what I believe. Try to do it with out insurance.

[Roadhouse]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G44NCvND ... r_embedded

[Banned]

I don't get your first sentence ? You seem to stand with me that no one should be denied access, wouldn't that then be considered a right ?

Like the 2nd amendment, I believe that we have the right to acquire and use health services if we so choose. As with guns under the right to keep and bear arms, the government is not obligated to supply you with those health services.

Pure human rights do not include the guarantee of any products or services, no matter how important they may be.

+1

+1

[f.sciarrillo]

The thing that is beyond comprehension is the question of why we should help people who are too lazy to fend for themselves and expect a hand out with every turn. This is what I am looking at when it comes to spread the wealth. This is democracy not a socialist society.

[Banned]

I think everyone, in this modern society, should have the right to be covered by health insurance.

I

Bill, as I posted in another thread, these needs are greater than your health care coverage, IMHO:

I will attempt to rank daily living needs:

1. Air, hard for government to regulate, so mostly free.

2. Water, much more important than health care, shouldn't the government pay for all our water. I have to pay for mine. Can't live more than a few days without water.

3. Food, can't live more than a week or so without food. The government should give us all free food.

4. Shelter, we all need a place to live, warm in the winter, cool in the summer. Free housing should be available to all.

5. A Job. Government should guarantee us all a job. A well paying, room to advance, job.

6. Transportation. Have to get to that job, so the government should provide us all a free car, van or truck.

7. Day care. If you have children, how are you going to do your guaranteed job if you don't have free government day care?

8. Education. A free education, up to the level you want. If you want a college degree, it should be free. Graduate level, for free. Why not?

9. Now is where Health Care should fit in, IMO.


Should all these things should be a guaranteed right too?

[lonewolf]

"We have the right to...use health services if we so choose ."

Sorry to take your qoute without the full context, but this is what I believe. Try to do it with out insurance.

Huh? People get health services without insurance all the time. Every minute of every day. Insurance may or may not be cheaper and more convenient for most, but its absolutely not a necessity and it should not be commercially provided by the federal government.

Something more intangible is the test of absoluteness. Just like a gun, there is no guarantee that health care will protect or save your life. Sure, everything has a probability, but for many, prayer has the same outcome.

Anything this fallible and imperfect should never be held as an absolute nor elevated to the status of a human right.

[Hawk]

I think everyone, in this modern society, should have the right to be covered by health insurance.

I

Bill, as I posted in another thread, these needs are greater than your health care coverage, IMHO:

I will attempt to rank daily living needs:

1. Air, hard for government to regulate, so mostly free.

2. Water, much more important than health care, shouldn't the government pay for all our water. I have to pay for mine. Can't live more than a few days without water.

3. Food, can't live more than a week or so without food. The government should give us all free food.

4. Shelter, we all need a place to live, warm in the winter, cool in the summer. Free housing should be available to all.

5. A Job. Government should guarantee us all a job. A well paying, room to advance, job.

6. Transportation. Have to get to that job, so the government should provide us all a free car, van or truck.

7. Day care. If you have children, how are you going to do your guaranteed job if you don't have free government day care?

8. Education. A free education, up to the level you want. If you want a college degree, it should be free. Graduate level, for free. Why not?

9. Now is where Health Care should fit in, IMO.


Should all these things should be a guaranteed right too?

1. The government does try to make sure your air is clean.

2. The government does make sure your water is safe.

3. The government does make sure your food is safe.

4. The government does make sure your shelter is protected. Fire companies and police.

5. Only in Russia would the government guarantee you a job.

6. The government give you the roads to go to work, or use for pleasure. Driving is a privilege, not a right.

7. The government does pay for public schools. Day care would be wrong.

8. A free education is a necessity. And I think that if there were certain qualifications, post high school education should be free as well. I believe the countries like Japan, that are passing us up, have free education. I could be wrong about that though.

9. Hard to do all of those things if your sick. Move to number 1.

[Sapo]

6. The government give you the roads to go to work, or use for pleasure. Driving is a privilege, not a right.

7. The government does pay for public schools. Day care would be wrong.

8. A free education is a necessity. And I think that if there were certain qualifications, post high school education should be free as well. I believe the countries like Japan, that are passing us up, have free education. I could be wrong about that though.

The government doesn't "give" any of that stuff...and education isn't free. the taxpayers paid for it all.

[Hawk]

6. The government give you the roads to go to work, or use for pleasure. Driving is a privilege, not a right.

7. The government does pay for public schools. Day care would be wrong.

8. A free education is a necessity. And I think that if there were certain qualifications, post high school education should be free as well. I believe the countries like Japan, that are passing us up, have free education. I could be wrong about that though.

The government doesn't "give" any of that stuff...and education isn't free. the taxpayers paid for it all.

You know what I mean. You are stating the obvious.

[Banned]

6. The government give you the roads to go to work, or use for pleasure. Driving is a privilege, not a right.

7. The government does pay for public schools. Day care would be wrong.

8. A free education is a necessity. And I think that if there were certain qualifications, post high school education should be free as well. I believe the countries like Japan, that are passing us up, have free education. I could be wrong about that though.

The government doesn't "give" any of that stuff...and education isn't free. the taxpayers paid for it all.

+1

[f.sciarrillo]

6. The government give you the roads to go to work, or use for pleasure. Driving is a privilege, not a right.

7. The government does pay for public schools. Day care would be wrong.

8. A free education is a necessity. And I think that if there were certain qualifications, post high school education should be free as well. I believe the countries like Japan, that are passing us up, have free education. I could be wrong about that though.

The government doesn't "give" any of that stuff...and education isn't free. the taxpayers paid for it all.

+1 - Basically, us tax payers should pay for everything .. Gee what an idea ?

[Hawk]

6. The government give you the roads to go to work, or use for pleasure. Driving is a privilege, not a right.

7. The government does pay for public schools. Day care would be wrong.

8. A free education is a necessity. And I think that if there were certain qualifications, post high school education should be free as well. I believe the countries like Japan, that are passing us up, have free education. I could be wrong about that though.

The government doesn't "give" any of that stuff...and education isn't free. the taxpayers paid for it all.

+1 - Basically, us tax payers should pay for everything .. Gee what an idea ?

All of the things I mentioned in the 1 to 9 are necessities or are you against clean air, safe water, roads, police, fire companies, education etc. ?

[whitedevilone]

Bill, good lord man, do you really think that modren man would have nothing or accomplish anything without government??Roads?Fighting fires?Protecting our homes and neighbors?I'll admit government run schools are outstanding .Do you live in this constant fear of a life without government telling you every move to make??Jesus did you have training wheels on your bike till you were 15?

[witchhunt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc7HmhrgTuQ

[Hawk]

Bill, good lord man, do you really think that modren man would have nothing or accomplish anything without government??Roads?Fighting fires?Protecting our homes and neighbors?I'll admit government run schools are outstanding .Do you live in this constant fear of a life without government telling you every move to make??Jesus did you have training wheels on your bike till you were 15?

In my life, no matter what era I would live in, be it 500 BC or 1400 or 1800 or 2009, I believe that man should care for / about his fellow man.

The opening post in this thread expresses my desire to see to it that everyone can be healthy in order to pursue happiness.

I see our government as one OF the people and by the people and for the people. It represents a system of laws to protect people. But it also has the ability to save the people from catastrophes. It doesn't matter to me if those catastrophes are big (earthquake affecting thousands) or small (cancer affecting one).

We the people, united, have the ability to help each other. In general it seems that the only negative in that is taxes. Money coming out of our pockets. To me, health and happiness trumps love of money.

People tend to believe that if they paid less taxes they would have more money for their personal use. Items and services charge WHAT THE MARKET WILL BEAR. I believe that if taxes were totally removed, the market would adjust UP accordingly - inflation would erode the excess money you would find yourself with.

I have no desire to amass a fortune, I have a desire to take an interest in everyone.

My fellow man (to me) is more important than your money. If you want to think of us liberals as Robin Hoods. So be it.

The old line, "give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime" is a good story. So if you want to teach him, pay for his education. We all benefit. And keep him healthy so he can work in order that he can contribute to our society.

Are there slackers out there ? Sure, and I don't like that anymore than you do. Communism solved that problem by making everyone work.

I say, teach every man so he can work, and keep him healthy.

Love of my fellow man trumps my desire for money.

[Banned]

Bill, good lord man, do you really think that modren man would have nothing or accomplish anything without government??Roads?Fighting fires?Protecting our homes and neighbors?I'll admit government run schools are outstanding .Do you live in this constant fear of a life without government telling you every move to make??Jesus did you have training wheels on your bike till you were 15?

+1

[Lisa]

Why should I continue to work my @ss off to provide for my own family's insurance (medical, dental, vision and life) so my husband can be a self employed business man with anywhere from 10-15 part-time workers can bring home a paycheck when he can't even draw from the business after putting in 60 hours when I could just quit my job, get some welfare, have our boy covered by better free medical care under CHIPS and get food on our table, help paying the rent, oh, and if I would only allow myself to have another child, just think of the benefits!

I work hard to take care of my own family. We struggle, but we proudly get by. When my mother had to come up with $6000 for medication because medicare has a black hole in their prescription coverage, we did it because that is what family do..they take care of each other.

I don't want the government taking care of me or others around me. If they did, I would not have any one wanting to work for us to earn money so they too can take care of their own.

Maybe if people stop living beyond their means, stop buying four wheelers and dirt bikes for their kids, they can afford things like insurance.

I want the government to help those that really need it like the disable who can not work to earn money for a real reason...or the vets who served our country so we can be free and be protected from terrorists.

My two-cents....please don't ask for more because I can't afford to give it.

[Banned]

I believe that man should care for / about his fellow man.


We the people, united, have the ability to help each other.

Man did just that for thousands of years without the help of the US Federal government. Do you think that there was no charity before the government set up welfare and medicare?

Look up Andrew Carnegie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Carnegie

Used his fortune to help thousands and thousands of people, without the government telling him to do it.

Look at Altoona Hospital. Do you know its history? It was not built with any government money. It was built by the railroad for the benefit of its employees and families. They also built the YMCA and Cricket Field for the benefit of its employees. No government involvement.

Bill, we can care for our fellow man without having our money taken at gunpoint by this over bloated government.