To Serve OR Not To Serve

Imgrimm01 · Post by **Imgrimm01** » Thursday Sep 30, 2004

Nothing I have read in the past few months during this pitiful
> debate on service in Vietnam more forcefully articulates the absurdity
> of where this criticism is coming from, and how cold, calculated and,
> yes, shrewd it really is!
>
> This could be the last election where military service in Vietnam
> has
any
> political currency. But just for the record, it's worth noting who
> really served among the heavyweights in each of the major political
> parties.
There
> are some surprises here.
>
> Recognizing who served:
>
> Democrats
> Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71.
> David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.
> Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72.
> Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan. 1971 as an army
> journalist in 20th Engineer Brigade.
> Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam.
> Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-'47; Medal of Honor, WWII.
> John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V
> Purple Hearts.
> John Edwards: did not serve.
> Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea.
> Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam.
> Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-1953.
> Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74.
> Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91.
> Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII, receiving the Bronze Star and
seven
> campaign ribbons.
> Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, Bronze
> Stars,
and
> Soldier's Medal.
> Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver Star and
> Legion of Merit.
> Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne, Purple Heart.
> Bill McBride: Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in Vietnam; Bronze
Star
> with Combat V.
> Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star.
> Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57
> Chuck Robb: Vietnam
> Howell Heflin: Silver Star
> George McGovern: Silver Star & DFC during WWII.
> Bill Clinton: Did not serve. Student deferments. Entered draft but
> received 311.
> Jimmy Carter: Seven years in the Navy.
> Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953
> John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs and Air Medal with 18 Clusters.
> Tom Lantos: Served in Hungarian underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul
> Wallenberg.
> Wesley Clark: U.S. Army, 1966-2000, West Point, Vietnam, Purple Heart,
> Silver Star. Retired 4-star general.
> John Dingell: WWII vet
> John Conyers: Army 1950-57, Korea
>
> Republicans
> Dennis Hastert: did not serve.
> Tom Delay: did not serve.
> House Whip Roy Blunt: did not serve.
> Bill Frist: did not serve.
> Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.
> George Pataki: did not serve.
> Mitch McConnell: did not serve.
> Rick Santorum: did not serve.
> Trent Lott: did not serve.
> Dick Cheney: did not serve. Several deferments, the last by marriage.
> John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business.
> Jeb Bush: did not serve.
> Karl Rove: did not serve.
> Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. "Bad knee." The man who attacked Max
> Cleland's patriotism.
> Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.
> Vin Weber: did not serve.
> Richard Perle: did not serve.
> Douglas Feith: did not serve.
> Eliot Abrams: did not serve.
> Richard Shelby: did not serve.
> Jon Kyl: did not serve.
> Tim Hutchison: did not serve.
> Christopher Cox: did not serve.
> Newt Gingrich: did not serve.
> Don Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as aviator and flight instructor.
> George W. Bush: six-year Nat'l Guard commitment (in four).
> Ronald Reagan: due to poor eyesight, served in a non-combat role making
> movies.
> Gerald Ford: Navy, WWII
> Phil Gramm: did not serve.
> John McCain: Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and
> Distinguished Flying Cross.
> Bob Dole: an honorable veteran.
> Chuck Hagel: two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, Vietnam.
> Duke Cunningham: nominated for Medal of Honor, Navy Cross, Silver Stars,
> Air Medals, Purple Hearts.
> Jeff Sessions: Army Reserves, 1973-1986
> JC Watts: did not serve.
> Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer.
> G.H.W. Bush: Pilot in WWII. Shot down by the Japanese.
> Tom Ridge: Bronze Star for Valor in Vietnam.
> Antonin Scalia: did not serve.
> Clarence Thomas: did not serve
>
> Pundits & Preachers
> Sean Hannity: did not serve.
> Rush Limbaugh: did not serve (4-F with a 'pilonidal cyst.')
> Bill O'Reilly: did not serve.
> Michael Savage: did not serve.
> George Will: did not serve.
> Chris Matthews: did not serve.
> Paul Gigot: did not serve.
> Bill Bennett: did not serve.
> Pat Buchanan: did not serve.
> Bill Kristol: did not serve.
> Kenneth Starr: did not serve.
> Michael Medved: did not serve.

I for one am NOT surprised !!

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Thursday Sep 30, 2004

I LOVE this post.---->JMS

Diavolo · Post by **Diavolo** » Thursday Sep 30, 2004

Again, your facts are very selective. How about this information:

1.) The immortal Bill Clinton - never served.

2.) Bob Dole did more than "honorably serve" how about this record - U.S. Army, WWII, Italy campaigns, two Purple Hearts, Bronze Star Medal.

3.) You conveniently left out this list of liberal pundits:
Wolf Bilzter, CNN News anchor
No military service.

Alan Colmes, Hannity & Colmes host
No military service.

Al Franken, Political satirist
No military service.

Bill Maher, HBO, political satirist
No military service.

Chris Matthews, Hardball host
No military service.

Michael Moore, Political satirist, filmmaker, Giant Asshole.
No military service.

Dan Rather, CBS News Anchor
U.S. Army Reserve. (He later tried the USMC but did not complete boot camp.)

Tim Russert, Meet the Press host
No military service.

4.) Let's compare the experience of Clinton's international advisors to Bush's advisors:

Clinton Advisors
Madeleine Albright, Secretary of State
No military service.

Strobe Talbott, Deputy Secretary of State
No military service.

William Cohen, Secretary of Defense
No military service.

John Hamre, Deputy Secretary of Defense
No military service.

George Tenet, CIA Director
No military service.

Sandy Berger, National Security Advisor
No military service.

Bush's Foreign Policy team

Colin Powell, Secretary of State
US Army, 35-year career, Vietnam, rose to the rank of 4-star general.

Richard Armitage, Deputy Secretary of State
U.S. Navy, Naval Academy, 3 combat tours in Vietnam.

Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense
U.S. Navy, 1954-57, pilot, flight instructor.

Paul Wolfowitz, Deputy Secretary of Defense
No military service.

George Tenet, CIA Director
No military service.

Condoleezza Rice, National Security Advisor
No military service.

5.) Describing GHW Bush's service as "shot down by the Japanese" is like saying Max Cleland handed three of his limbs to the North Vienamese - get serious.

The botton line: if you're going to post, post all the facts not just those which support your own very limited set of ridiculous and clueless views.

Does military service really matter when we vote for politicans? Come on!

ToonaRockGuy · Post by **ToonaRockGuy** » Thursday Sep 30, 2004

I'm NOT getting into this to debate politics, only to add one thing to Diavolo's information...

Colin Powell, Secretary of State
US Army, 35-year career, Vietnam, rose to the rank of 4-star general, AND became Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Of Staff. (The First African-American to ever do so.)

And just to comment on Diavolo's last line, "Does military service really matter when we vote for politicans? Come on!".

For me, yes, it does. As a military veteran with combat decorations, I find it hard to think that a non-veteran fully understands the world of war and the military, especially in these times.

esa · Post by **esa** » Friday Oct 01, 2004

ToonaRockGuy wrote: For me, yes, it does. As a military veteran with combat decorations, I find it hard to think that a non-veteran fully understands the world of war and the military, especially in these times.

That's not a very fair statement. How many people in this list that *did not* serve, had family or spouses that did? I would assume that if my Jamie was army (which he isn't), I'd have army osmosis. Know what's going on. Or if my Dad was a navy seal (nope again), osmosis.
I was with an idiot..er a guy that was navy for several years and learned alot (not all but alot) of the ins and outs of the field. So... Take that into consideration.
Even if the person hasn't been apart of the Military, how much has the Military been apart of them?

ToonaRockGuy · Post by **ToonaRockGuy** » Friday Oct 01, 2004

I meant no offense, Esa, to you or anyone with family in the military, but I do stand by my statement.

For example, you said "I was with an idiot..er a guy that was navy for several years and learned alot (not all but a lot) of the ins and outs of the field." Key phrase being "not all but a lot". Veterans do know more about military life and the ins and outs than non-veterans, simply because we've been through it. And (ONLY in my opinion) better to have someone sending our military to war who fully understands the ramifications and processes of doing so.

I'm not trying to demean anyone at all for their beliefs or judgement calls. All I'm saying is that this is my personal opinion. I don't want any hard feelings, cause here on Rockpage, you crack me up with your posts, and I think you are a valuable member of this music community. If we don't see eye-to-eye on a few things, that's okay by me.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Friday Oct 01, 2004

esa wrote: That's not a very fair statement. How many people in this list that *did not* serve, had family or spouses that did? I would assume that if my Jamie was army (which he isn't), I'd have army osmosis. Know what's going on. Or if my Dad was a navy seal (nope again), osmosis.
I was with an idiot..er a guy that was navy for several years and learned alot (not all but alot) of the ins and outs of the field. So... Take that into consideration.
Even if the person hasn't been apart of the Military, how much has the Military been apart of them?

Those are good points, but I think what matters is whether the candidate has TACTICAL military experience. If you're related to someone in the military, it still isn't going to be the same as having a background in military science. For example: living with an engineer, doesn't that one could build a bridge. The candidate shouldn't just understand what it's like to load a mortar or field-strip a M-16 - They should be versed in the strategy, politics, and philosophy of war.

esa · Post by **esa** » Friday Oct 01, 2004

Oh no no no no no... No hard feelings what so ever!
I'm just saying that I like a military man in office. They know what they are doing and 9 out of 10 times are not one to back down after we get butt-fkd. (ie, 9/11). But if I can't have a military expert in there, I'd rather have someone in there that has some semblence of a clue as to what's going on vs. someone who's watched MASH reruns on tv... That's the whole reason we call them Master n Chief. They are supposed to know what's going on. They are supposed to protect us.
Just saying.

byndrsn · Post by **byndrsn** » Friday Oct 01, 2004

I guess my question would be this:

"Okay, so Kerry served. So What!! Besides that, what has he done for this country in the past 30 years??

((((((remember my liberal buddies - it only counts if he has been consistently committed to it!!!))))))))

facingwest · Post by **facingwest** » Saturday Oct 02, 2004

I got served some Jager last night and it was good.

BBolinger · Post by **BBolinger** » Saturday Oct 02, 2004

I usually don't post often (although I do read all the posts) but I felt like this post needed a response because it was so misleading. There are currently 118 members of the house who are vets. 70 of them are Republicans and 48 are democrats. The only woman in congress to have served is a republican.
There are 35 vets in the senate. 18 Republicans and 16 democrats.
http://www.senate.gov/reference/resourc ... S21379.pdf

byndrsn · Post by **byndrsn** » Sunday Oct 03, 2004

BBolinger wrote:I usually don't post often (although I do read all the posts) but I felt like this post needed a response because it was so misleading. There are currently 118 members of the house who are vets. 70 of them are Republicans and 48 are democrats. The only woman in congress to have served is a republican.
There are 35 vets in the senate. 18 Republicans and 16 democrats.
http://www.senate.gov/reference/resourc ... S21379.pdf

There Bobby Lee!!! RESPOND TO THAT!!!

stonekrow · Post by **stonekrow** » Sunday Oct 03, 2004

Why didn't you just post "Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah!!!", well I guess yours was along the same lines. Geeeeeeeeeeeeezus!

esa · Post by **esa** » Sunday Oct 03, 2004

That's the funny thing about the truth... whether you like to hear it or not, what is true cannot be changed because your ears don't like the ring to it. It's like me saying I'm a size 2 and can back flip doesn't mean I can squeeze my size 8 hips into a pair of 2 jeans just by saying I can. And good lord. I do cartwheels with my sixth graders at recess and my hips ache/back aches for days...doesn't mean I can still back flip even thought I can see it in my mind.

Go GWB!!!

Actually, when "my kid" is done with their weekly reader, I want to come in and type the paragraphs they had written on the candidates. Unbiased literature made for children to explain what voting/elections are (this is written 3-7th grade reading level). And it cracked me up. Had a ton of explanations and when it came to where the candidates stood on "X" subject...it seemed like all kerry said was he'd call meetings to order. Or that he agreed with Bush, but he'd do things different. How? I don't know. He just said different. The man never gave any form of detail at all. When they are done working on them, I'll bring in the article and type it up. It's pretty eye opening, especially when it's simplified for kids to understand...

DMFJ03 · Post by **DMFJ03** » Monday Oct 04, 2004

Hey, here's a thought...

Who freakin' cares?!

I'll be so glad when this Fourm turns back into a music discussion forum and not a political one. Everyone sounds like a bunch of old ladies bickering back and forth at a bingo hall.

musicmadman · Post by **musicmadman** » Monday Oct 04, 2004

DMFJ03
Posted: Monday Oct 04, 2004

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey, here's a thought...

Who freakin' cares?!

I'll be so glad when this Fourm turns back into a music discussion forum and not a political one. Everyone sounds like a bunch of old ladies bickering back and forth at a bingo hall.

I AGREE ........

esa · Post by **esa** » Monday Oct 04, 2004

When social security paychecks are down, taxes are raised more and the country is in a worse condition than it is... when your paychecks are being tossed to the wind or spent on unneccessary (sp?) things... when you find out that your health care coverage is costing you more...and when you realize that jobs ares out of the country to the lowest bidder because of a NAFTA agreement signed by a democratic president... when you realize all this... then I don't want to hear a damn word coming from any of the non-voters lips. Not one. Vote Bush. Vote Kerry. Make a choice. Make a stand. But vote and voice yourselves. We as musicians do that well, we express ourselves through our instruments. This is no different.
I hate hearing "I'm not voting, I don't care." worse than I hate hearing "Support Kerry." ::shudders:: And that in itself drives me up a wall. Bobby lee, you're lucky I love you out side the party lines, lest I'd have to beat ya with a pillow.

DMFJ03 · Post by **DMFJ03** » Tuesday Oct 05, 2004

Esa....you done?

byndrsn · Post by **byndrsn** » Tuesday Oct 05, 2004

DMFJ03 wrote:Esa....you done?

I hope not!

MakinSumNoise · Post by **MakinSumNoise** » Tuesday Oct 05, 2004

I would say take a vote and shut her up but then I would have to realize how many on here are or aren't voting.

So, lets try to vote on this.

Yes! Shut her or the others the hell up!
No! Keep her or the others ranting!
or
Who gives a flying f**k! Politics are stupid.

Vote now!

byndrsn · Post by **byndrsn** » Tuesday Oct 05, 2004

MakinSumNoise wrote:I would say take a vote and shut her up but then I would have to realize how many on here are or aren't voting.

So, lets try to vote on this.

Yes! Shut her or the others the hell up!
No! Keep her or the others ranting!
or
Who gives a flying f**k! Politics are stupid.

Vote now!

I vote for Esa!! Mainly because she is cute (Hey, I've actually heard people say that about real political voting!! Seriously!!)

But also, I vote in favor of freedom of speach.

DMFJ03 · Post by **DMFJ03** » Tuesday Oct 05, 2004

She has every right to say what she wants to, as do I.

My only gripe is that this is not the place for it. She can wave her little political flag until her arm falls off. That's fine. This just isn't the place to do it.

Girlfriend or no, I'm not supporting her on this topic.

byndrsn · Post by **byndrsn** » Tuesday Oct 05, 2004

Last I saw, this thread was under the "General Discussion" topic.

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Tuesday Oct 05, 2004

Nothing I have read in the past few months during this pitiful debate on service in Vietnam more forcefully articulates the absurdity of where this criticism is coming from, and how cold, calculated and, yes, shrewd it really is!

Agreed. This non-issue is b.s. and both parties should just let it lie.

esa · Post by **esa** » Tuesday Oct 05, 2004

::shrugs:: Will not be the first nor last time my opinion did not matter or that I was shot down and pushed aside. You get used to it after awhile. And politics is a messy subject to talk about. Perhaps when the election is over we can start on religion. And after we all feel like shit over that one, why don't we start discussing tone and set up of lyrics. So we can go back to arguing over music.
::says her piece and leaves::