New Venues ???

BigJohn · Post by **BigJohn** » Sunday May 10, 2009

There is a reason if you look in the real estate guide most bars in Altoona are for sale .... THERE IS NO MONEY IN IT ..... Between the cost of liquour, taxes, employee's, utilities, and all other overhead ....THERE IS NO MONEY IN IT ..... I read in a recent post that someone is looking for a place to open a club (HA HA) Go to a bank to borrow money for a bar or night club they will laugh you out the door .... The only people who are buying or starting new clubs are people who hit the lottery or get a large personal injury settlement, Most people with enough money to do so are to smart .... Some clubs still get by in Altoona like Aldo's or Pellies or Thirty Something but if you check with these people they have other bussiness witch if they are honest probably support the bar .... I heard a rumor recently that the bank took over D'hitching post in Altoona ....
Night Clubs are going to be an exhibit in the Smithsonian .... So enjoy Your Cable TV Your High Speed Internet Your Blue Ray DVD's and Your High Tech Game Systems cause that what they want you locked at home in your house

Hawk · Post by **Hawk** » Sunday May 10, 2009

That's a good recap John. Now, if you were asked to somehow solve those issues, what ideas would you come up with ?

I mean, look at things from the perspective of what can be done about it now that you have identified , in clear and concise terms, the problems.

BigJohn · Post by **BigJohn** » Sunday May 10, 2009

I dont know if there is a solution we are becoming a corporate society people go to Applebee's and Chilli's have a beer with there steak and baked potatoe and then go home to a dvd, thats just how it is !!!

fullthrottle666 · Post by **fullthrottle666** » Sunday May 10, 2009

a bar is a biz and if there's no money in it why do it?

RFBuck · Post by **RFBuck** » Sunday May 10, 2009

I believe another reason is the harder enforcement of DUI. Driving drunk is certainly not a good thing, but the reason people would go out like this was to get together, have a few, and party till the wee hours and have a good time.
Now, you can't even have one beer and drive away without being at risk. There are a few "hot spots" out my way that are known for being good party places. But just try tipping a few back and pulling out of the parking lot...and the cops are lying in wait. It's just not fun, and why risk your license for a few beers? Just stop on the way home and grab a six pack if ya wanna catch a buzz....much easier.
It's one of the most common excuses I hear from people about not wanting to show up at shows. "Ah, I can't drink, so what's the point??" I don't know...I've enjoyed several good shows perfectly sober, but hey that's just me. I never realized good live music and alcohol were that tightly related.

fullthrottle666 · Post by **fullthrottle666** » Sunday May 10, 2009

RFBuck wrote:. I never realized good live music and alcohol were that tightly related.

you must be living in a cave because i've known it for quite a few years now and so do the cops

you are right that it's a definite deterrent for me going out

BigJohn · Post by **BigJohn** » Sunday May 10, 2009

The reason people do it ..... is they believe the know better than everyone who has lost money before them and they think it is a glamorous bussiness . IT's NOT TRUST ME !!!!

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » Sunday May 10, 2009

BigJohn wrote:The reason people do it ..... is they believe the know better than everyone who has lost money before them and they think it is a glamorous bussiness . IT's NOT TRUST ME !!!!

AMEN!

We knew going into it we wouldn't be making a lot of money. We knew that my husband's average work week would be about 70 hours. We rarely get a day off at all.

We've only had our place for 4 years. Trust me...there's been plenty of times during those 4 years we thought we should just hang it up. Why do we stay with it? We do enjoy it. We enjoy our customers. I enjoy the band bookings and I would like to think that I'm helping a few employees get some extra money that they wouldn't have if we weren't there. I get a sense of pride when a band walks out at the end of the night and each member has $100 in their pocket for the 4 hours of work.

I love the bands I work with. They know who they are...they are the ones that are willing to play for the door (even when others believe they may be belittling themselves to do so) because they know we aren't making any money and that we will be more than fair and honest on the take. I've had bands in that were rude and just plain arrogant. They aren't back. If I can't enjoy working with them, why do it because its not a money maker for us.

Sure, having bands in SHOULD bring in more people. But you have a lot of additional costs. Your insurance is higher. You have to pay bmi and others for the music (that the original artists don't see a dime from anyway when they are played at a bar). You have additional labor involved in band nights. Additional utilities and costs in supplies. This is why a lot of bars are not doing live music anymore. You can only have so many bust nights.

There are bars around that will pay bands flat rates and take a lost. They are making money elsewhere to help cover it. When that money flow shuts off, they stop having bands or they close their doors.

It takes great musicians with the ability to see that we need to work together to keep live music going. You have to make the people want to come out to the bar, not only on band nights, but even when there isn't a band playing because those are the money making nights.

There are at last 80% of rockpagers that do this. I've met some wonderful people with great minds for music and the business on here. And I keep mentioning one over and over...Dave from Vent is one of the best.

Ok....cold medicine is really getting to me now. I need to get some more sleep. Night.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Sunday May 10, 2009

BigJohn wrote:The reason people do it ..... is they believe the know better than everyone who has lost money before them and they think it is a glamorous bussiness . IT's NOT TRUST ME !!!!

You seem kind of bitter by some of the posts I read from you here. Or am I mistaking that for just being gruff and realistic? I'm not trying to start a flamewar; it just seems like you have a tendency to shoot down any idea anyone has with a "been there, done that, don't even bother trying" vibe.

Bottom-line: If you want to truly succeed at anything in life, it's going to require hard work and dedication. I feel like I'm stating the obvious there, but perhaps the obvious needs stated on occasion. There's no doubt that the restaurant and bar industry is a tough gig from which to make a profit. Music's a tough gig too. To quote that one dude from this site...what's his name? Songsmith! That's it! "You have to pay them dues."

fullthrottle666 · Post by **fullthrottle666** » Sunday May 10, 2009

you can work harder than anyone else all your life and not succeed. those are just words man. you can waste your life chasing a dead end only to find that your barking up the wrong tree

hard work doesn't guarantee anything. rather rely on smart biz sense.

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Sunday May 10, 2009

(Edit: I forgot to quote Big John when he said the bar business is not glamorous)

You figure that out the first time somebody tries to flush a super-maxi. I'm with John on this one... if there was big money in it, the big money guys would be in it.
My personal solution for myself is to: A) Find a little handhold in the area that nobody else has discovered, and B) Hang the hell on. When the bar business started declining rapidly, I started looking for regular gigs outside of bars (i.e.- festivals, yard parties, carnivals, etc.). They're there, but you either have to find them or create them. I've mentioned before here that if I was in a rock, punk or metal band, I'd be hammering the outdoor stuff HARD. Years ago, we'd put 2 or 3 metal bands out in the middle of nowhere, add some booze, and make the kind of fans that follow you around for years. You might not have made immediate $$, but it added up over time. Times are tough, but people still feel entitled to cut loose on the weekends... you just have to give them a reason.
When I first started looking at local bluegrass, there really wasn't any in Altoona for the better part of 30 years. I begged my way into the Hitching Post on a Wednesday, 20 people was a pretty good crowd, but little by little, you keep hitting it, and it improves. Through the bluegrass jams, I met the right guys, we formed the current band, and rehearsed and went to every little jam or open mic we could find. Through those connections, we hooked up with people who were already playing on a higher level, brought them here, and suddenly we can't find a room in Altoona big enough to hold our audience. Our "scene" of regulars sits at about 300 people overall, and we know most of them by their first names. They treat us well, and we acknowledge them constantly. Most of them wouldn't go to a bar to hang out, we have to give them a good enough reason.
So, the trick is to find a product that nobody else is selling, make it the best product you can, figure out who'd buy it, and sell it to them. Once you know who your audience is, what kind of people they are, you can tailor your product to suit them.
Disclaimer: I don't pretend to be at the pinnacle. We're pretty small scale locally, but we're getting noticed. We have a song on XM Bluegrass this month, and we're getting bits of airplay on small local bluegrass shows all over Appalachia. We just got some airplay on the Bluegrass Preservation Society radio show and podcast (the number one bluegrass podcast in the world) that led to heavy requests and even more airplay. We're also playing with some of the top bands in bluegrass this summer. All from maybe the laziest, most casual band in the genre. It's what you make of it.--->JMS

BigJohn · Post by **BigJohn** » Sunday May 10, 2009

I'm am a hard case when it comes to this stuff and I don't think anybody tried to work it harder than me but I beat that dead horse for fifteen years. This is not to say I wish I was wrong but I'm NOT!!!

Big-H · Post by **Big-H** » Sunday May 10, 2009

hey john we loved ur club.wiskerbisketboys!!!wish they were all like urs!

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Monday May 11, 2009

fullthrottle666 wrote:you can work harder than anyone else all your life and not succeed. those are just words man. you can waste your life chasing a dead end only to find that your barking up the wrong tree

hard work doesn't guarantee anything. rather rely on smart biz sense.

I'm not disagreeing. You need a certain amount of intelligence, creativity, and an understanding of whatever you're trying to accomplish. Simply "working hard" will not help you realize your dreams. I do agree on that point. However, sitting around and brainstorming without any intention of actually doing anything doesn't equate to accomplishing anything, either. That's kind of my rant in the other thread in which I said a lot of people talk big, but there are only a minority who are change agents. My point in this thread was, however, that to make things happen takes hard work and dedication. Instant gratification rarely happens.

Big John wrote:I'm am a hard case when it comes to this stuff and I don't think anybody tried to work it harder than me but I beat that dead horse for fifteen years. This is not to say I wish I was wrong but I'm NOT!!!

Respect.

I also hate it when people who don't have any idea of what they're talking about try to pass off like they do. It's gotten me into some arguments here. LOL

JackANSI · Post by **JackANSI** » Monday May 11, 2009

I actually want to do it because I think it would be a blast. I have no hopes on making piles of money doing. But I do have enough time on my hands to wait for the right moment.

And there is more places to get money than a bank...

fullthrottle666 · Post by **fullthrottle666** » Monday May 11, 2009

BigJohn wrote:The reason people do it ..... is they believe the know better than everyone who has lost money before them and they think it is a glamorous bussiness . IT's NOT TRUST ME !!!!

BigJohn you had one of the busiest clubs in town, and if you couldn't make any coin who can?

Didin't you make ANY money from it? Why? I went there a lot and saw patrons buying beer & booze hand over fist. *I* bought beer & booze hand over fist

Where did all that money go for?

JackANSI · Post by **JackANSI** » Monday May 11, 2009

Three letters... TAX. (I'm guessing)

BigJohn · Post by **BigJohn** » Monday May 11, 2009

Just general overhead the profit margin is very low next to the cost of doing bussiness ... Also alot of employee theft in a cash bussiness that is why Claudio does well he is always behind the bar taking care of the cash .... and I forget who mentioned it but I did love it thats why we stayed for fifteen years, but fifteen years spent running most other bussiness would have paid off alot better financially !!!!

mjb · Post by **mjb** » Monday May 11, 2009

the only guys i know that made doe in the bar business were the ones selling blow out the back door.

BigJohn · Post by **BigJohn** » Monday May 11, 2009

I heard that some where !!!

nakedtwister · Post by **nakedtwister** » Monday May 11, 2009

RFBuck wrote:I believe another reason is the harder enforcement of DUI. Driving drunk is certainly not a good thing, but the reason people would go out like this was to get together, have a few, and party till the wee hours and have a good time.
Now, you can't even have one beer and drive away without being at risk. There are a few "hot spots" out my way that are known for being good party places. But just try tipping a few back and pulling out of the parking lot...and the cops are lying in wait. It's just not fun, and why risk your license for a few beers? Just stop on the way home and grab a six pack if ya wanna catch a buzz....much easier.
It's one of the most common excuses I hear from people about not wanting to show up at shows. "Ah, I can't drink, so what's the point??" I don't know...I've enjoyed several good shows perfectly sober, but hey that's just me. I never realized good live music and alcohol were that tightly related.

The solution to this is to find a friend to be a designated driver. When we go to see bands at bars, I do the driving. I might drink one mixer in 4 hours but that"s it. The DD has to be committed to staying sober. Bottom Line.

mjb · Post by **mjb** » Monday May 11, 2009

BigJohn wrote:I heard that some where !!!

thats how it was in jtown in a few places places back in the day

.

i don't know what they're selling out the backdoor these days, and i don't wanna know!

RobTheDrummer · Post by **RobTheDrummer** » Monday May 11, 2009

BigJohn wrote:I heard that some where !!!

Didn't you do some of that back in the day?

BigJohn · Post by **BigJohn** » Monday May 11, 2009

Not till the close to the end out of desperatin to keep Peter C's alive .... You could say I tried to be Altoona's version of John Delorean .... Not the answer !!!

BigJohn · Post by **BigJohn** » Monday May 11, 2009

By the way PLCB monitors this web site ....