Doormen/women

[Lisa]

Do bands who play for the door provide their own door person at most places?

Right now, bands play for the door for us. (Until we start making lots of money then heck I'd pay you all triple your asking price..but that's another story) We provide the door person. We card, stamp hands, and collect the money. When talking to some bands, I get the feeling that there is a huge lack of trust of bars.

I don't mind if a band wants to do the door, but do they take the responsibility to card people?

You guys have been to many more bars than I have....just want to get your input here.

[UncleScabby]

Your bar will still be the one responsible/cited if they let an under-ager in, correct? I've played at places where the band had someone taking the money, but there was always an employee swiping IDs.

[Merge]

UncleScabby is right. If the band has someone taking money and checking ID's and they let an 18 year old in, it's your ass not theirs. There is a big lack of trust between bars and bands. Bands think that the bar is is skimming money from them when they have someone card the door. Unfortunetly, sometimes the bands are right.

[Asundor]

WE HAVE BEEN SCAMMED SEVERAL TIMES BY BARS, IN FACT WE HAVE HAD FRIENDS COME RIGHT UP AND TELL US THAT THEY WATCHED THE DOOR MAN POCKET MONEY SEVERAL TIMES A NIGHT. AND IT'S HAPPENED MORE THAN IN ONE BAR AND MORE THAN ONE TIME. SO JUST FROM PERSONAL EXSPERIENCE WE HAVE ALWAYS BROUGHT OUR OWN DOOR MAN AND GIVE HIM A CUT OF THE PAY AT THE END OF THE NIGHT. SOMETIMES IT'S NOT AN ISSUE OF YOU NOT TRUSTING THE BAR OR THEIR DOOR PERSON. SOMETIMES YOU GOTTA DO IT JUST TO COVER YOUR OWN ASS.

[ToonaRockGuy]

The bar is legally responsible to provide someone to check IDs at the door. It's up to the bar and the band who collects the money. When I was in Scream, we always provided our own doorman, Bear, who took the money, since we played for the door a lot of the time. It was a deal-breaker in negotiations. Our guys is on the door, or we don't play. Having your own doorman also cuts down on bar owners who let their friends in for free, ripping you out of five bucks a head. You control the door, you control your money.

[Rich]

We usually have a "door/money" person. And the venue has a person carding. We've even went so far as to bring our own "change". So the venue has no reason to question us, nor do we have a reason to question them... Like everyone said above. The venue is the one that gets busted if they sever the wrong person. And, I've been in the middle of getting ripped by the "doorman", one way or another... Boy do I, and I'm sure everyone else does, have some stories!!!

[hicksjd9]

It would be easy to rattle off the names of several establishments who have ripped off the various bands I have played in, but I won't because that would make me as low as them. It would make sense for us to have a private place on rockpage where we (musicians) could list venues that have burned us (or been great to us). Why shouldn't bars be held accountable for being untrustworthy? I, for one, would like to have some idea what I am getting into when I play a new place. Will they lock the door on you when you carry your last piece of gear out so they don't have to pay? If they did that to someone, I'd like to know.

Like I said, it would need to be some kind of insider thing just for gigging musicians.

For that matter, at one point there was a musicians guild or something like that. I personally am tired of not knowing whether I will get screwed or not. What about doing something like that again?

[Rich]

But, JD, isn't that the "fun" of it??? The great "unknown".....

BTW... Good luck with your new gig!!! Big H is a master mind and Tommy is a way cool dude. Don't know Birk that well...

Have fun!!!

[hicksjd9]

Thanks Rich! I'm lookin forward to it. Gonna be fun!

[VENTGtr]

Lisa,

Normally it's the venue's responsibility for the reason's mentioned already.

If a band/perfromer does have someone they want to take the cover, as
has been mentioned, it's still a good idea to have your person checking IDs.

I also think it's the responsibility of the band to let the bar know ahead of
time, OR if the venue doesn't provide someone, THEY have a responsibility
to let the band know initially. NOT when we get there. I've had this happen
on a couple of occasions. Not to cool to ask someone who's traveled to see
you to all of a sudden become the guy taking cover.

One night a few year's ago we played a place where the band's upstairs, they
have a DJ downstairs (No cover to get in at the front, just to get upstairs to
see the band). Had a nice crowd, was going pretty well, but as we ended the
first set, someone we knew mentioned they hadn't paid a cover. We checked,
no one was collecting.

Found the owner who said he ASSUMED we brought someone (Owner at this
point was fairly drunk. Nice to deal with someone then). After a bit of
discussion, he asked one of his employees to handle it. Second set started,
and, seeing some of his friends show up, the employee was gone.

Have had places where the bartender is also the doorperson, which doesn't
work at ALL. As they're slinging beer, people come in and they don't see them,
nor are too concerned, because it doesn't affect them. Have seen door people
let their friends in, know there have been times the place has skimmed, etc.,
etc. Unfortunately, it's one the joys that you hope not to have to deal with.

A decent min, plus anything from the door over is the best way, I think. If it's
house sound, it's the house's responisbility to pay them, not take it out of the
door, etc.

[lonewolf]

Since they'd be a non-employee, I'm not even sure its legal for the band to provide a person to collect money at a PLCB licensed establishment.

That's probably a question for the PLCB legal squad:

http://www.lcb.state.pa.us/webapp/legal ... earch.asp?

You can direct inquiries to this emal address:

ra-lblegal@state.pa.us

[Rich]

But the "door/money person" doesn't work for the venue. They" work for the band", just collecting cash. IMO, it has nothing to do with the venue or the PLCB. (But, I'm sure there's a loop hole.) If there is no entertainment, is it not the venues responsibility to card there patrons? What makes it any different if there is a band? It's 2 separate entities. One has nothing to do with the other. IMO, Especially if the band is "working" for the door. The band is there to "entertain" and to make $$$ from the people that come thru the door..... The venue is there to make $$$ from the sales of alcohol.

I guess this could go round and round, huh....

[jb31dtr]

But the "door/money person" doesn't work for the venue. They" work for the band", just collecting cash. IMO, it has nothing to do with the venue or the PLCB. (But, I'm sure there's a loop hole.) If there is no entertainment, is it not the venues responsibility to card there patrons? What makes it any different if there is a band? It's 2 separate entities. One has nothing to do with the other. IMO, Especially if the band is "working" for the door. The band is there to "entertain" and to make $$$ from the people that come thru the door..... The venue is there to make $$$ from the sales of alcohol.

I guess this could go round and round, huh....

While all this makes good common sense doesnt mean it does to the PLCB. Havent they proven time and again that common sense isnt something they follow?

[Rich]

So true... Common sense... ??? HUH?!?!?

[lonewolf]

If there is no entertainment, is it not the venues responsibility to card there patrons? What makes it any different if there is a band?:shock:

That's exactly my point--it also makes good legal sense that it should be the legal responsibility of the licensee to collect a fee at their door to enter their licensed establishment.

Always remember--because it is written by lawyers--legal sense and common sense don't have anything to do with each other.

[Rich]

Why??? What reason would there really be? I guess the whole issue is, trust between the venue and the entertainment. I can see if there is a straight price set. But that would be the only way. Then the venue can do what ever they want. I could give 2 shit about who drinks in there bar. But There better not be 200 people in the place and the band walks away with $123 at a $5 cover charge. Then we have a problem. That has nothing to do with "legal drinking age or VIP's". Not the bands problem. The band didn't let them in. The band didn't take there money for alcohol. The band didn't serve them said alcohol. Right?????? Maybe I'm totally missing the point. (?????) You're correct about "legal Vs. common sense"....

[lonewolf]

Right?????? Maybe I'm totally missing the point. (?????) You're correct about "legal Vs. common sense"....

I'd imagine that you are missing the point. The PLCB has strict rules for licensees and collecting a fee to gain entry to one of their licensed establishments, for whatever reason, is going to fall under their jurisdiction. If the issue came up, a PLCB court would probably rule that a person collecting money needs to be a direct employee of the venue. There are only 2 ways to find this out:

1) get busted for a PLCB violation regarding the money collector and find out in PLCB court

2) Ask the legal opinion email that I put in the earlier post.

Another little reminder: Our opinion isn't worth 2 shits in a bucket to the PLCB.

[Rich]

Ahhhh.... I get it, now.... I see what your saying. Because a venue has a license, they have zero, rights to make any of there own judgements/rules. No matter how small and silly. And the PLCB knows best. No matter what. And if you someone from the PLCB just happen to be in the right place, at the right time. And in a "F-U" mood, your ass is grass....

Thank You....

(Still don't make sense!!! )

[Jones]

I think we've all been ripped off by a club or two on this one. That being said, I don't mind providing, but would prefer to find an owner like Lisa, that you can trust not to rip you off.

[Lisa]

I think we've all been ripped off by a club or two on this one. That being said, I don't mind providing, but would prefer to find an owner like Lisa, that you can trust not to rip you off.

Thanks for the good words....I just question it because another band had asked me if they could bring their own doorman. I guess I don't mind that they do, but I would have issues with the carding.

I would love to find a band to do it all...the door, provide bartenders, bouncers, beer stockers, etc. That way I can listen to the band for a change

Of course, they would volunteer their services too. And be honest about ringing in all the sales and give away no freebies....hmmmm

rofl

[Colton]

What if you used some kinda ticket system, where you give out one of those 50/50 style tickets to each person who walks in. Make note of the first number and last number that are sold. You'd know exactly how much you should have made from the door. Maybe draw one for a CD or shirt or someshit...


*shrug*

[Lisa]

Colton, we tried that last week. Luckily our entertainment was the comedy show and acoustics so the payment wasn't based on the door. We were breaking in a new doorman... He wouldn't give out tickets to everyone. Said they didn't want them. When they announced that we were giving away prizes, people came to me wanting tickets. Needless to say, that doorman won't be our doorman. I find the best way to do it is by me doing it myself any more. I know what the bands deserve to be paid and want to see them get it so I'm fair and honest to both the house and the band.

[Big-H]

i think best thing to do is ur homework.study up on bars,thats why rockpage is here.everything u need to know is right here w/a lil research.
does seem like every bar owner knows exactly wut do and everybar owner tells a diff story.i personally like a set rate that way.doessnt matter wut happens.

[songsmith]

I hope you bandmembers are all doing informal head-counts during the night. Usually during the breaks, I do a quick count of the number of patrons, that way, I have a minimum count. If the cover's $5, and I count 100 people, I'd better be getting at least $500 at night's end. I've also "casually" mentioned the head-count to managers as well... "Well, I just counted 100 people, so we at least got that many in the door." At that point, it's a touchstone, if they agree, they can't un-agree later.
On a related note (and this is NOT aimed at Lisa or any particular clubowner/manager), if you short the band despite having a suitable attendance number, we will eventually figure it out, and it's not as simple as us never playing there again. If you rip me off, I'll have my pound of flesh... you likely won't even know I evened the score, but your pocketbook will.
BTW, cheers to the doorpersons! Treat them right, they're the eyes and ears of the organization, and a good doorman is very valuable in many ways.--->JMS

[Lisa]

songsmith....I agree with you. The bands do need to pay attention to the count. We've had members of bands come over and check with us on the count...no biggie. Its their money. I'd rather have them pay attention during the night then to question it at the end of the night. In our place its a little hard and most of the time the bands are surprised to hear how high the final count is because our place is big...and especially since the smoking ban has gone into place, you have people in and out on the deck all night long so its hard to get a real count just by counting heads. Seems that the bands are always happy though at the end of the night.