Miser /pa question..Beringher decent?

rickster · Post by **rickster** » Tuesday Apr 21, 2009

Im going to buy my first pa this weekend and going to buy used.so far ive been offered:
a peavy xrd powered 8 channel mixer 300 watt with 2 peavy ds15 ( 15" speakers) with cables for $350

-Behringer PMH5000 20-Channel Powered Mixer 800w for $350 ( no speakers)

I want to play the bars around here eventually.Im thinking the 8 channel is too small and the berhinger is junk, then again, I dont know anything about mixers or bar requirements.Help please.........

JackANSI · Post by **JackANSI** » Tuesday Apr 21, 2009

I don't like powered mixers at all, no matter who makes them. They always end up having features left out, and you need massive speaker cables to get back up to your mains. You do lose more power than you'd think in 50' of 12ga with those tired 1/4" speaker connections.

That said, one will do what you want in the small bars around here (its what we do right now) and its not a bad choice for the first go 'round. You can always upgrade later bit by bit.

And even though I really like Behringer equipment (they've never done wrong to me no matter how hard I've beat them), their power amps are labeled at theoretical peak wattage. Multply their rating by .6 to get closer to what you'll actually get out of them.

While I do have my gripes with the OpAmp they seem to favor (the 4580), its a solid and clean chip overall. I think Behringer gets a bad name from the some circles because the 4580 doesn't do well with how hot they like their studio signals these days. Behringer tends to use lower supply voltages to save money on components. A 35V capacitor is about 25-30% more expensive than a 16V, so they just run with less headroom to save money on the 16V part...

hicksjd9 · Post by **hicksjd9** » Tuesday Apr 21, 2009

Without question I would go with the peavey. You would have a full working pa and later you could use the peavey mixer and speakers for a monitor amp and monitors. Lots of room to still use that gear (or sell it for near what you paid for it) when you upgrade. The behringer will be useless as far as resale is concerned...that's if it lasts long enough to be resold. That said, I would think that the sound quality of the behringer and the peavey will be similar, and peaveys have a way of lasting forever (and there will probably be lots of times you will wish they would just die!). Look around and see how many people have old peavey sh... ahem...stuff in their garages from 20 years ago that still works. Also, 8 channels is easily enough for a band if you are only mic'ing vocals, guitars, and the kick drum and not the full kit.

JackANSI · Post by **JackANSI** » Tuesday Apr 21, 2009

Oh yeah, and speakers... I can't seem to find anything about Peavey DS-15's... Only thing I find are DAS DS-15. If they are anything like those, they should be enough, but your bassist better have a powerful rigif he wants to be heard. Just get them above everyone's heads.

Can't find any response charts, so I can't see if they will be more than 'enough'.

The setup I'm looking at is using 15" subs and three way tops with 6x10 horn, 8" mid, and 12" mid-bass. The heart being a quartet of 900W power amps and a 4-way active crossover.

Should be more than enough for any bar that doesn't have house sound, in my experience. Any more and the sound nazis will be all over you unless you're really careful.

Ok, ok.. the real reason is it would all fit in my car and only take 3 trips to have it all in....

I also have a philosophy that people should be allowed to talk to each other without screaming louder than the singer. Most sound people aren't that polite...

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Tuesday Apr 21, 2009

I don't recommend 15" speakers for anything but subs or bass guitar. Vocals in 1-15" cabinets are generally either muddy or honky and don't project well.

I would look for main speakers with 12" drivers.

You are much better off with powered speakers than with powered PA heads. Much better. I wouldn't buy either of the equipment listed.

hicksjd9 · Post by **hicksjd9** » Tuesday Apr 21, 2009

I've been hearing this 15 inch woofer thing lately. I'm a little confused about this. The horns are what make the high frequency sound. The best speaker manufacturers best sellers are all 15's. Yamaha s115s are everywhere to some degree in just about every club I've ever been in (which are what I have used for years). I've never noticed a "honky"ness to the speakers.

I'm not a huge fan of anything that is combined. If one goes bad, they both go bad. That's why I would never buy a tv/dvd or vcr combo...BUT...this guy is looking to get started on a budget. Both of these systems are in his price range, and by telling him to let them go, I would say that does him a disservice. Rickster, these will more than meet the need until you get them playing a couple shows (weren't these for your daughter's band?). See if the interest stays. If you want something great, get some yamaha/JBL mains, a crown amp, and a mackie mixer. If you want enough to get by and produce very adequate to good live sound then both of the options you mentioned above are going to be great for you. The only concern I have about the peavey you mentioned is a 300-watt amp safely powering those mains without distortion. I'd feel much better with at least 600 watts (300 per side). Overpowering is much better than underpowering.

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Tuesday Apr 21, 2009

hicksjd9 wrote:I've been hearing this 15 inch woofer thing lately. I'm a little confused about this. The horns are what make the high frequency sound.

The fundamental frequencies of vocals are in the range of about 80hz to 1.1khz, with most vocals falling well inside that range. The excursion of most 15" speakers don't do as well as 12s for the higher end of this range. Often, a 15" cabinet will have a crossover that is somewhere inside the vocal range that will put a lot of vocals thru the horn. That's where its gets too honky.

On the other hand, if the crossover is high enough for all the vocal fundamentals and most 1st order harmonics, the typical 15" excursion will do a worse job on those vocal frequencies. Mud.

The only advantage that a 15" speaker has over a 12" are the very low frequencies below 100hz. That's what subwoofers are for.

LHSL · Post by **LHSL** » Wednesday Apr 22, 2009

lonewolf wrote:
hicksjd9 wrote:I've been hearing this 15 inch woofer thing lately. I'm a little confused about this. The horns are what make the high frequency sound.
The fundamental frequencies of vocals are in the range of about 80hz to 1.1khz, with most vocals falling well inside that range. The excursion of most 15" speakers don't do as well as 12s for the higher end of this range. Often, a 15" cabinet will have a crossover that is somewhere inside the vocal range that will put a lot of vocals thru the horn. That's where its gets too honky.

On the other hand, if the crossover is high enough for all the vocal fundamentals and most 1st order harmonics, the typical 15" excursion will do a worse job on those vocal frequencies. Mud.

The only advantage that a 15" speaker has over a 12" are the very low frequencies below 100hz. That's what subwoofers are for.

One additional effect of using a 15" compared to a 12" is that the higher the frequencies reproduced the 15" will start to become "beamy." Which will cause the off axis response to be very different from the on axis response at those frequencies.

Generally, a 15+2" (exit!) horn is pretty standard or a 12+1". A 15+1" is just asking for mud IMO.

A note on high frequency drivers. Be careful when you look at specs for HF driver/horn size. Sometimes you will see stuff listed as 15+2". But many times that 2" is not the throat diameter, it's the size of the compression driver. And usually, the throat diameter is about half that of the compression driver. i.e. a 2" exit will have a 4" diaphragm compression driver behind it and a 1" exit will have a 2" diaphragm. When buying a speaker with a 15" LF driver, I HIGHLY recommend the horn be a 2" exit NOT 2" diaphragm. It's only a rule of thumb and you have to take it on a case by case scenario.

That said, I'll take a 12+1" top for vocals any day.

hicksjd9 · Post by **hicksjd9** » Wednesday Apr 22, 2009

That's good to know. Which I would have known it earlier, I would have saved some money on the 15s! Still, I can't agree at all that my yamaha s115s are honky in any way. They just aren't.

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Sunday Apr 26, 2009

I have a set of S115's, but I've only played one show through them. They may be a bit nasal, but bluegrass is basically a nasal music! (Okay, you non-grassers might not get the joke, but I made myself laugh with it... it's funny 'cause it's true

)
I got them because they're warhorses, and deliver the midsy honk we need for bass guitar. I should set them up in the backyard and run a CD through them, maybe some hip-hop and the standard Steely Dan, to check musical fidelity. My big bitch with them? Sooooo heavy!--->JMS

Post by **Ron** » Sunday Apr 26, 2009

lonewolf wrote:I don't recommend 15" speakers for anything but subs or bass guitar. Vocals in 1-15" cabinets are generally either muddy or honky and don't project well.

I would look for main speakers with 12" drivers.

You are much better off with powered speakers than with powered PA heads. Much better. I wouldn't buy either of the equipment listed.

+1

12's are much, much better for vocals. I remember telling this to John Solinski a few years back when he was looking for a PA for his solo act. He thanked me later for the advice.

To be honest, though, the best sized speaker for reproducing vocals is about 2 to 3 inches. If you have a clock radio, tune it to a station and listen to the vocals. You will then understand. That is why the Bose PAS system is so good for an "acoustic" act. It takes advantage of small drivers and line driver technology. Because of it's design, you don't need monitors. If you have never checked one out, do so. I was very impressed when I did. They are pricey, but would probably pay off in the long run. To be honest, I have always HATED Bose speakers, but I think they hit the nail on the head with the PAS.
There is a reason why most places have a waiting list to buy it.

BloodyFingers · Post by **BloodyFingers** » Monday Apr 27, 2009

Personly I don'r think you need subs in any of the clubs in Altoona. They are not big enough. To give you a good idea go see Bedlam play. They have a small PA (no subs) and it sounds great.