Whats a suffient pa package for the local clubs/bars etc

[rickster]

Im going to purchase a pa/mixer package in the near future.What is sufficient for the clubs around here, back yard pool parties etc?If you have a link to a product that would be great.I'm hoping to be able to get started for less than a grand. Any ideas? Thanks

[Banned]

www.musiciansfriend.com

[rickster]

actually that is where I was window shopping but since I dont have experience with pa systems I dont know what I'll need.. as in wattage, how many speakers?...Do i need woofers for the drums with these speakers or...?What do you use? How much does a setup like that cost?

[JackANSI]

You don't need a trailer full of subs around here. Get something you feel comfortable loading in and out every night. Or hire a sound crew to do it for you.

Some of the worst sounding shows I've been to sounded so bad because the sound guys brought too much stuff.

Just about anywhere that is large enough to require a large PA either have house sound, or you should make enough to hire the right crew.

[HurricaneBob]

We use Peavey SP 2's and Peavey XR 8600 Powered Mixer.
Plenty for around here for vocals, clean and powerful.
Dont worry about miking other instruments for now, rent when your ready to play out.

[Colton]

We use Peavey SP 2's and Peavey XR 8600 Powered Mixer.

I can honestly say I've never heard one man in the world complain about their mix either.


The mix starts with your gear...

[VENTGtr]

Get something you feel comfortable loading in and out
every night. Or hire a sound crew to do it for you.

Some of the worst sounding shows I've been to sounded so bad because
the sound guys brought too much stuff.

This. We do send every instrument through the board. We run two mains
with 15s (Plus 2 mons).

Gtr is mic'd, Rob's bass goes through a DI box, even at smaller places, we
DO at least put 2 overhead condensers on the drums, then 3 voc mics.

Often, this isn't totally necessary, BUT, it does get everything into the mix,
even somewhat. Part of keeping the backline at a lower level and having
a drummer(s!) know how to control their volume and to play for a room (Jas
is great at this, as has been Brandon while he's filling in). It lets the sound
guy mix things without massive volume from the back making him bring vocs
up louder and louder to compensate.

We can fit our PA, Board, small light setup, mons, mon board, stands for all,
etc., my personal gear... and sometimes SherK. (Holding the Carvin head),
all in my RAV4. Takes a careful pack but has been working for several years.

Have had friends say they're taking less because of seeing us and they're
hearing a positive difference in their sound. All those subs in a small/medium
room can often be more a detriment than a "reinforcement".

"Back in the day" things were different, but developments have made smaller
better in a lot of instances (KEEP IT CLEAN!).

Ya, a huge PA looks really cool,...but being crammed in between it to the
point where you can't move...not so much...

[lonewolf]

That all depends on how much $ you want to spend. The best little stuff still costs big $

[RamRod 1]

For small clubs and pool parties there's lot's of good stuff now days that can do a great job. I'm in a varety band playing those same types of venues and we're using a "Mackie" 600 watt head which has the mixer and power amp in one unit. We mic the whole band including bass and drums and it works fine. Don't worry about micing bass and drums. Just mix them like you'd mix a record and it will sound as good as playing a record through the PA. We're using 3 or 400 dollar Yamaha speakers with a 12 inch woofer and a small horn and "It Kicks".

Our biggest weakness is that the head only has 8 channels. Make sure you have enough channels. You might add an aux mixer if you need to.

[slackin@dabass]

Don't worry about micing bass.

yea. no one knows that it's there anyways...

[BloodyFingers]

https://www.carvinguitars.com/products/ ... XP880-1502


I was surfing around and came up with this. Seems like it would handle most bars around here.

[VENTGtr]

Ya, Carvin stuff is always great. Check Branderson's stuff for sale if
looking for any.

[lonewolf]

I don't recommend cabs with 15" or 18" LF speakers in them (excepting subs of course, but some 12"s are good for subs too.) Most sound guys I know agree that vocals project much better through 12" speakers (and some higher echelon 10" systems).

These powered speakers are as good as anything I've ever heard:

http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-ELE-SXA360-LIST

I have a pair and have never needed to take the sensitivity control beyond 11 o'clock indoors. For a single cabinet, the clarity is peerless. What really amazes me is that the flat frequency response and directivity characteristics also minimize the need to vary the main EQ from one room condition to another.

At 36lbs, they also make great dumbbells.

[floodcitybrass]

I don't recommend cabs with 15" or 18" LF speakers in them (excepting subs of course, but some 12"s are good for subs too.) Most sound guys I know agree that vocals project much better through 12" speakers (and some higher echelon 10" systems).

Agree stay away from a 15" with a 2". It puts the vocal range coming out of that nasty horn to give that classic honk sound.

I'm a fan of powered speakers. Get something with a 12". I have a pair of QSC HPR112 and some Yorkville nx55p and a nx550.

Pros of using powered speakers:
1) Do not have to have external amp
2) Do not have to have external rack
3) Do not have to have external processor/crossover
4) Built in processor with settings designed for your speaker
5) Less space and usually lighter.

Cons of using powered speakers:
1) If one of the 3 components breaks (speaker, processor, amp) you are screwed. However, last time I checked, if you external power amp dies, you are screwed. If your external processor dies, you are really screwed. At least if 1 POWERED speaker breaks, you still have another one in perfectly good order.
2) More expensive up front but cheaper in the long run.


Dont get a sub unless:
1) You need more kick drum or the bass player's rig isnt loud enough.
2) You have a gate for the kick drum or the drum is considerably muiffled.

Misconception: You need 2 subs. Just get 1 for now and get another one later if you need it.

You should be fine with 2 powered speakers and a sub for bar jobs and pool parties (depending on the type of music you play.

[floodcitybrass]

Ya, Carvin stuff is always great. Check Branderson's stuff for sale if
looking for any.

I'm not a fan of Carvin. There is definately way better sounding gear for similar price.

[floodcitybrass]

One more thing....

Your money is best spent on speakers. That is where you get the best bang for the buck. Don't buy an $800 vocal mic or a really fancy mixer or a really expensive graphic eq. If you want to sink money anywhere, spend it on speakers.

I would rather have a rig with a $300 mixer and $50000 speakers rather than have a $50000 mixer and $300 speakers.

[Ron]

One more thing....

Your money is best spent on speakers. That is where you get the best bang for the buck. Don't buy an $800 vocal mic or a really fancy mixer or a really expensive graphic eq. If you want to sink money anywhere, spend it on speakers.

I would rather have a rig with a $300 mixer and $50000 speakers rather than have a $50000 mixer and $300 speakers.

Agreed. Like any sound system, 90% (Yes 90%) of your budget should be in the speakers. They are the link to your ears and affect the overall sound quality much more than any other component in the system.

[metalchurch]

True true.

[BloodyFingers]

Here's one for you. Go see Bedlam play. Check out thier PA system. It is small but sounds great. This is John McKelvey's new band and they are really good. I saw them twice at Family Pizza and it sounded really good in there. This should give you a idea about what size PA you need to sound good in small clubs around here.

[JackANSI]

Ya, Carvin stuff is always great. Check Branderson's stuff for sale if
looking for any.

I'm not a fan of Carvin. There is definately way better sounding gear for similar price.

how about some links to some?

[moxham123]

We use Peavey SP 2's and Peavey XR 8600 Powered Mixer.
Plenty for around here for vocals, clean and powerful.

We use an older version of this P.A. for smaller clubs and add 2 bass bins loaded with 15" speakers for larger venues when we have to mic everything. This mixer/head has a switch on it to drop the load to 4 ohms and double the power for the bigger gigs and still has lots of headroom left. We have actually played large outdoor gigs with this P.A. The bonus is a very quick set up and tear down and easy to haul and move.

[JackANSI]

Ya, Carvin stuff is always great. Check Branderson's stuff for sale if
looking for any.

I'm not a fan of Carvin. There is definately way better sounding gear for similar price.

how about some links to some?

I didn't think there were any... I've heard an all carvin pa a while back and it was actaully pretty good sounding. (about 3 years ago)

can't say anything about how long it would last though (road worthy). but that depends more on the people running it, IMO.

[lonewolf]

I'd like to add that its not just the speakers, but anywhere the air & electronics meet that is critical in a PA. That goes for the mics, too.

I'd venture to say that your sound is affected 45% by speakers, 45% by microphones and 10% by the electronics in between -- give or take. That's not meant to be a guide on how much to spend, because you can get extremely high quality mics for under $100 now.

If you have excellent speakers and your mics suck, your speakers will do an excellent job of reproducing sucky mics.

The GIGO rule is one of the keys that unlock the universe.

[JackANSI]

I'd like to add that its not just the speakers, but anywhere the air & electronics meet that is critical in a PA. That goes for the mics, too.

I'd venture to say that your sound is affected 45% by speakers, 45% by microphones and 10% by the electronics in between -- give or take. That's not meant to be a guide on how much to spend, because you can get extremely high quality mics for under $100 now.

If you have excellent speakers and your mics suck, your speakers will do an excellent job of reproducing sucky mics.

The GIGO rule is one of the keys that unlock the universe.

Couldn't agree more.

[LHSL]

I'd like to add that its not just the speakers, but anywhere the air & electronics meet that is critical in a PA. That goes for the mics, too.

I'd venture to say that your sound is affected 45% by speakers, 45% by microphones and 10% by the electronics in between -- give or take. That's not meant to be a guide on how much to spend, because you can get extremely high quality mics for under $100 now.

If you have excellent speakers and your mics suck, your speakers will do an excellent job of reproducing sucky mics.

The GIGO rule is one of the keys that unlock the universe.

Couldn't agree more.

If you agree with that to the extent you say, why in the world would you recommend a Carvin PA system? I personally can not think of a worse sounding speaker to buy than Carvin as configured from the factory.

Typically until you start to bi-amp or tri-amp cabinets and do proper time alignment and bandpass filtering will you achieve anything worth writing home about. Hi-Fi passive speakers depend on QUALITY crossovers which is very hard to find these days. The only passive speakers I have heard as of late that I would write home about are some the stuff that Danley Sound labs has been offering. The Radian (now EAW) microwedges are fairly impressive sounding passive speakers, but they benefit from a coaxial driver design where the time alignment issues are less of a concern.

If we compare apples to apples, the recommendation for a powered speaker like the HPR122i is a very good one. The user does not have to deal with any of the aforementioned caveats of passive speakers or actively processed biamped or triamped systems. Amplification, processing, EQ, and limiting, are all handled in the box and I can guarantee you the engineers at QSC are much better at designing this sort of stuff than Carvin.

Take the following:
https://www.carvinguitars.com/products/ ... ct=TRX115N
https://www.carvinguitars.com/products/ ... ct=DCM2570

2 of those passive speakers and the amp would come in around $1397. That's not including a crossover or any processor if you want to biamp them. That amp is the largest Carvin makes and would STILL be under-powering those speakers.

Now compare it with two QSC HPR122i's
http://www.qscaudio.com/products/speake ... pr122i.htm

Which could be had for about $700-750 if you do your work shopping around (which you can't do with Carvin BTW) So let's say $1500.

The HPRs will get several dB louder, will sound MUCH cleaner, and you would reduce the hassle of carrying a heavy amp rack around and setup/tear down would be much simpler.

To those that turn their nose up at a 12" powered speaker as their Main PA, with the addition of ONE 18" sub I run a 8 pc rock band through these very often. They are all that and a bag of chips IMO.

Similar offerings can be had from Yorkville, EV, FBT and RCF. If you REALLY want some get up and go I would recommend the RCF ART 322-A or 522-A. Those will probably school anything else you can buy in a powered 12" top. In the sub $1000 price point.

Also, don't be fooled by spec sheets when buying. They are pretty much worthless unless you are very good at reading and deciphering how the measurements are made.