YES! Go Senator Stewart Greenleaf!

[ToonaRockGuy]

If you don't like smoke - don't be around it.

That's precisely my point...and the fix is it shouldn't be allowed anywhere. Then I wouldn't have to alter my behaviors to avoid it.

But why should everyone else have to alter their behaviors? That's where the sticking point is, and no solution is going to please everyone. I understand and respect your points, st8h8, but I get the feeling that you don't even want to listen to anyone else's...no offense intended there, just an observation.

[J Michaels]

If you don't like smoke - don't be around it.

That's precisely my point...and the fix is it shouldn't be allowed anywhere. Then I wouldn't have to alter my behaviors to avoid it.

Gee - how wonderfully self-centered...... You're probably one of those guys who cuts someone else off dangerously, then gives them the finger when they honk their horn at you.....

I absolutely CANNOT BELIEVE how incapable people are of thinking about the rights, freedoms and privileges of others. It disgusts the degree to which people only consider themselves and their own wants.

Get over yourself, and try to think outside your own little box for a change......

[HurricaneBob]

Ill smoke a fatty, and blow it in your face, dont like it, get in your bubble..........dont like that, ill kick the bubble down the fuckin road, with you rolling in it..........Yeah i smoke, dont even get that attitude with me..

[wake up drumming]

I'm not trying to sound like a dick here, so don't take this the wrong way. I can easily comprehend banning smoking in, say, a coffee shop, book store, even a fine dining establishment and so forth; but like I said before, a bar is a bar is a bar.

It's one of the few places that people can go to cut loose, relax, forget about their problems and indulge in some necessary evils such as drinking, smoking, and what have you. There are already enough places that you CAN'T smoke, CAN'T drink, CAN'T have fun. There are already enough stupid rules in this country that we all have to abide by each and every day in our lives. So at the end of the day, when I want to go have a drink, say the F-word, smoke cigarettes, and get a little out of line every once in awhile, I deserve the right to do that! If you're too much of a winey ass to deal, don't come around.

Banning smoking in bars is as stupid as banning prayers in church, it doesn't and never will make sense! One more ridiculous way for all the cry-babies to try and suck all the fun out of life.

And p.s. - hey ROB, don't tell me to quit smoking, I'll do what the hell I want and where the hell I want!! Take another hit off your asthma puffer and mind your own damn business.

I'm out of here like a non-smoker at Peter C's !!!

[str8h8]

No, J Micheals....you obviously don't know me at all, so don't jump to conclusions about how I drive. And yes, I think everyone is self-centered to a certain degree. We are a naturally hedonisitic society.

And ToonaRock, when people's mere actions are hazardous to the health of those around them and potentially kills them...then that is serious enough cause for the forced alteration of said actions.

[wake up drumming]

Dude, that's flat out comical!! All these people crying, "Your second hand smoke is killing me". What a fucking joke. You could be locked in a smoke filled bar for years and still not get cancer. Don't tell me my actions are killing people. It's your own damn actions that are hurting you when you see me light up and you STILL hang around! If you're that worried about your health, get the fuck up and leave. Like I said earlier, if you spend that much time in smoke filled bars, you got more health issues to be concerned with than second hand smoke!

I'm done here, this thread has become stupid, whiney-ass, bullshit!

[lonewolf]

Ultimately, this is not a question of smoker's rights versus non-smoker's rights. It is about private property rights.

Does the government have the authority to tell a private property owner what to do with their property?

Only if the activities on that property encroach on another property's rights or if the activities are otherwise illegal. That doesn't apply here.

We have always used the free-market system to sort these things out. Don't like going to bars because of smoke? Hey, there's your opportunity to open a non-smoking bar and make big bucks.

If an appeal on one of these bans ever gets a fair hearing before the Supreme Court, I don't think it would hold water.

[ToonaRockGuy]

And ToonaRock, when people's mere actions are hazardous to the health of those around them and potentially kills them...then that is serious enough cause for the forced alteration of said actions.

Okay, using that logic, the following items/actions need to be banned, as they could cause the deaths of others:

Driving.
Hunting.
Crossing The Street.
Working With Chemicals.
Working With Electricity.
Working With Machinery.
Working In Any Industry, really.
Recreational Shooting.
Flying Of Any Sort.
Large Passenger Boats.
Cooking. (All those knives are handy weapons)
Carving/Woodwork (Sharp tools could be used as weapons, you know.)

Wait...let me think...there's another one....oh yeah....


WAR.

You can apply your logic to almost anything, st8h8. But in my opinion, which I'm allowed to have, that don't make it right.

[lonewolf]

Jim, I'm with you 100% on this. If a bar wants to enact a no smoke rule, it should be up to the private owner to make that decision. If the government enacts a nonsmoking law for establishments, it will be the death of bars.

It will be even more than that. This is an unprecedented encroachment on private property rights. If statewide bans on smoking on private property are upheld in the supreme court, then a legal precedent would be set for the government to do any damn thing it pleases with a business's private property.

This is how they peel away our rights, one issue at a time. They get a favorable supreme court ruling and then use it as precedent as they cut a little deeper the next time.

[RobTheDrummer]

Hey Jim, I was just offering some good advice, no need to be a dickhead about it.

[Sanctify]

Okay, using that logic, the following items/actions need to be banned, as they could cause the deaths of others:

Driving.
Hunting.
Crossing The Street.
Working With Chemicals.
Working With Electricity.
Working With Machinery.
Working In Any Industry, really.
Recreational Shooting.
Flying Of Any Sort.
Large Passenger Boats.
Cooking. (All those knives are handy weapons)
Carving/Woodwork (Sharp tools could be used as weapons, you know.)

Wait...let me think...there's another one....oh yeah....


WAR.

You can apply your logic to almost anything, st8h8. But in my opinion, which I'm allowed to have, that don't make it right.

toona IMO it's not an issue of logic or actually causing death ... it's just an issue of potential harm or death... that's why all of those things (except cooking and carving) are regulated... driving on paved roads that are owned by the state are regulated... ie speed limits, seat belts... the government built and paid for the road and it gives them the right to regulate it anyway they choose...

I'm not saying I agree with it... but it's the truth... you don't have a right to fly, drive, handle chemicals, hunt (on land not owned by you, or close to others) or do a lot of things... it's a privilege... and that's how the government can regulate them... and that is why they can easily regulate smoking (in public places) if they wanted to... doesn't mean I agree with it... but they can...

and lastly... war is N/A because that just doesnt' make sense...

I respect my right to smoke and anyone's right to complain about it and make faces behind my back...

[Sanctify]

oops... guess I need to learn how to use the quote thingy... sry...

[wake up drumming]

Sorry Rob, just that all your posts seem like you know exactly what's best for the world, "dont smoke, don't litter, don't do this or that, take care of each other," blah, blah.

The real world ain't like that buddy, I wish it was, but it isn't and what really starts to piss me off is when people try to infringe on others rights to serve their own best interest. I smoke, but even if I didn't, common sense tells me that if I enter a bar, it's probably going to be smokey, and if cigarette smoke bothered me that bad, I wouldn't go in, plain and simple. I wouldn't try to change the fucking world just because I didn't like something.

There are crack houses a block away from the school, and porn shops popping up across the road from playgrounds and somebody's going to go after smokers in a bar? Seems a bit ridiculous to me.

There are bigger problems in society and bigger criminals in our community, leave us tax paying, law-abiding, beer drinking smokers the fuck alone.

[J Michaels]

The idea that smokers in bars are endangering others presupposes that the "others" have nowhere else to go, that they are being tied down in the bar, forced to breathe in secondhand smoke. (By the way, the research on secondhand smoke is NOT conclusive, because it is almost impossible to get a properly designed and controlled study of its effects.)

If you don't want to breathe it in, don't come in. Or leave once you're there. Or wear a surgical mask. Or establish a smoke-free bar somewhere. Or get all of your non-smoking friends to lobby a bar-owner to make his/her place smoke-free, with the promise that you will all go there all the time and nowhere else because everywhere else is just too smoky. You have many options.

For the government to make a blanket rule that controls EVERYONE and gives them no option because we need to be protected from ourselves offends me to my core.

And, for the record, I'm not even a smoker.

[bassist_25]

All I'm saying is - If smoking were to be banned in clubs, we all might as well put our instruments up for sale on ebay, because chances are, the bars are going to lose so much business that it wouldn't be feasible to have a music scene.

[DMFJ03]

Either that, or all the "Straight Edge" bands are going to boom.

[bassist_25]

There's no way I'm starting an Earth Crisis tribute band.

[lonewolf]

Call your state representative and state senator and tell them that if they vote for this ridiculous assault on private property rights and it passes, we won't have anything to do with our PA systems except campaign against them next election.

This works better than you think!

[str8h8]

The idea that smokers in bars are endangering others presupposes that the "others" have nowhere else to go, that they are being tied down in the bar, forced to breathe in secondhand smoke.

The proposed legislation is for smoke free workplaces, which would include bars and clubs. Yes, it is concievable that people might be trying to make a living by working their that is not a smoker.

[bfoust]

I would like to do a big shout out to all the smokers that think throwing their used butts onto the ground isn't littering:

WAKE UP


</end of rant.>

Thanks.

[lonewolf]

The proposed legislation is for smoke free workplaces, which would include bars and clubs. Yes, it is concievable that people might be trying to make a living by working their that is not a smoker.

This is America and our Constitution was written so that the government has limited powers over its citizens and can only ban otherwise legal activities on government property. They can't tell me or you what to do with our own property, so long as we don't infringe upon the rights of the owner of another property or the public-at-large.

Unless, of course, we have become "we the sheeple" and we are willing to accept tyranny in exchange for security.

"And did they get you to trade
Your heroes for ghosts?
Hot ashes for trees?
Hot air for a cool breeze?
Cold comfort for change?
And did you exchange
A walk on part in the war
For a lead role in a cage?"

[J Michaels]

The proposed legislation is for smoke free workplaces, which would include bars and clubs. Yes, it is concievable that people might be trying to make a living by working their that is not a smoker.

Apparently you are entirely devoid of the ability to think critically beyond your initial gut reaction. Maybe someone who works in a bar isn't a smoker. But if the smoke bothers them that much GO WORK SOMEWHERE ELSE!

Are you really this cognitively challenged? Jesus christ........

[J Michaels]

Look - I am done trying to have an intelligent battle with an unarmed person. I am done with this thread.

I apologize for being so blunt to anyone I may have a offended, but it is this very kind of thought process - or lack thereof - that is leading to things like road rage, the Patriot Act, and people of below average intelligence in political power.

If this kind of stunted development is indicative of a large portion of the country, I weep for our future.

[bassist_25]

And did they get you to trade
Your heroes for ghosts?
Hot ashes for trees?
Hot air for a cool breeze?
Cold comfort for change?
And did you exchange
A walk on part in the war
For a lead role in a cage?"

Man, Pink Floyd applies to everything.

[313]

Maybe someone who works in a bar isn't a smoker. But if the smoke bothers them that much GO WORK SOMEWHERE ELSE!

Do you feel that all airline pilots and stewardesses should have just quit their jobs back in the 80s rather than implementing the no-smoking rule that was placed on airline flights?