The Noise Gestapo Strikes Again!

Post by **Jim Price** » Saturday Jul 17, 2004

Beware bands and musicians - watch your sound levels this weekend!

On Friday night, the state police Liquor Control Enforcement gestapo busted Peter C's for loud volume while The Grimm played; reportedly to the tune of a $1,000 fine. On the heels of the recent Glenn's Place checkpoint harassment and police ID checks of several Bedford County live music venues, it's apparent that law enforcement is again on the warpath and conducting its periodic witchhunts against the live music nightspot community.

At a time when things have been slow for crowds at live music events to begin with, law enforcement is posing a serious threat to do much more harm to the live music scene as we know it. I know there has been talk from time to time about finding the right politicians to go to Harrisburg to battle the whole PLCB/LCE mess; I pose to you, the members of the music community and those concerned about the state of local live music in general - is there any way we can motivate the public at large to sound off to local and/or state officials about this situation so they'll give a serious listen to our concerns? Or are we, the music community, too small and disorganized to air a legitimate voice, and is it our destiny to keep taking it up the butt like this night!?

I invite any and all brainstorming and thoughts about this. Is there any way to direct public attention to this situation, and do you have any suggestions for organizing a unified, determined, long-term effort to force some changes to this current state of affairs? Is it time to pressure local authorities to counteract PLCB noise guidelines? And if so, how do we make the local political community listen? Any and all suggestions are welcomed below, go for it!

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Saturday Jul 17, 2004

This is terrible news. I hope that despite this very expensive bullshit, (and that's what it is: BULLSHIT, not to mention, downright bullying) Peter C's continues to have live music.

As always, when this subject comes up, I'm cynical about anyone doing anything.......but my opinion is this: We are going to need 3 important demographics if we want to put a dent in this thing. Those are the musicians, the club owners, and the fans. Obviously the bands and clubowners are going to want the change, but the fans need to understand the magnitude of this. There are many people who are passionate about live music, and those are the ones we want to connect with.

Which brings me to my next suggestion........

We'll need to create a lobbying and watchdog organization. We need to take this to Harrisburg; there is no other way. We need representation. An organization would pool all of our resources, and give us another way to connect to the largest demographic for our cause: the fans. By creating a website, we can direct potential people, who are sympathetic to our cause, to the necessary information. This is a universal cause for anyone who is involved in the local music scene; whether they are liberal or conservative; Republican, Democrat, Libertarian (they are the people who should be pissed the most about this, though) or Green. Remember, by stiffling the club scene, the government is in fact, harming the economy. When the economy is hurting, the government doesn't get it's income, sales, and capital gains taxes that it loves so well. That could be a big argument for us to use.

As always, I'm all for change, just as long as this doesn't turn into another 90 post thread with people saying, "Yeah, this has to change, man", and then results in nobody doing anything.

Imgrimm01 · Post by **Imgrimm01** » Saturday Jul 17, 2004

J.P. tells it the way it happened we were not even through our first set when they came in and shut us down now the show did go on BUT we had to make several adjustments to the sound and by this time the night and the mood had been altered in such a way that it would not recover. bassist J.P. and I talked about some of you said above putting together a car pool and going to Harrisburg not as an angry mob but as intelligent professionals concerned about the destruction of our craft I know this has all been discussed before BUT come on folks lets pull together here before there is no where to play our music at all and we all dry up and die like the dinosaurs.

FatVin · Post by **FatVin** » Saturday Jul 17, 2004

The only way to change this is is to change the laws. The PLCB is only a tool or a collection of tools, It's the law that needs changed.

DMFJ03 · Post by **DMFJ03** » Saturday Jul 17, 2004

If we pool our ideas together, I would be more than happy to donate my time in trying to make a website. I fairly quick about it, however, I do not think I can afford another domain name on my sh*ty budget. If no one minded it being a free website, I can have it up and running before you can say Bobby Lee's your uncle.

Let me know...

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Saturday Jul 17, 2004

What is the law regarding this? Who determines what's too loud and what isn't?

In State College, they actually use decibel meters to enforce the noise law. Does the PLCB, or do they just make a judgement call?

PLCB enforcing noise laws? WTF is that?

rug · Post by **rug** » Saturday Jul 17, 2004

i was once told by our very own officer hogan as she paid a visit to one of our practices that no matter what time of day or night, loud or not, if the noise is bothering or disturbing someone then it is a violation. i wonder how much validity there is to that???

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Saturday Jul 17, 2004

After a little digging, I found that it is not a law at all. It is:

Entertainment/Music heard outside of a licensed premises (RR § 5.32(a))

RR stands for Rules & Regulations

as opposed to:

Lewd, immoral or improper entertainment (LL § 493.10)

LL stands for Liquor Law.

It would be extremely difficult to approach this from legislation. We would have to propose a law that would order the PLCB to change their rules OR propose a Liquor Law that would define excessive noise and make sure that its reasonable.

An easier approach might be to get loads of support and address the board members to change the rule to something more reasonable.

Here's the board:

http://www.lcb.state.pa.us/Agency/board.asp

Any thoughts?

tonefight · Post by **tonefight** » Saturday Jul 17, 2004

It would definatly be a tough road and The 1st things it would require are , an organization name and someone to take on the role as " president " this would be a president we probably wouldn't have to vote for cause I don't think there will be too many candidates running for the office.

Questions ............ Do DJ's ever get shut down?

I know I've heard alot of live bands and some do get a little on the loud side so I would encourage everyone to try to " police " yourself to an extent.

Now just out of curiosity....... I know the PLCB has control over bars. If there were to be BYOB bars would they have an authority over this? Or the open keg deal like some of the "adult" clubs do?

So back to the point ........ we need a name , a president then a website. Take it in steps these should be the 1st

noAngel · Post by **noAngel** » Saturday Jul 17, 2004

i've been in situations from being told repeatedly to turn down, to having the owner walk outside to see if he can hear the bass and kick drum, to having the doorman monitor us with a Db meter, to even having a bar owner put a semi out in front of his bar and letting it run to cover up the sound...
although going to harrisburg is a wonderful idea, and the basis of our form of government, i wonder how effective it would be at this point. (plus it would give "pastor press release", gary dull more fodder for his pea shooter)
i think a more effective method would be to contact local media (WRTA has a great forum for local gripes) make sure that it's mentioned on the 'backyard rocker EVERY sunday, maybe Q94 could start a local 'music news' segment that could report such travesties...
and maybe you could monitor the volume of your sound...better to start off at a lower volume and build it up, than to start out at 10 (but this one goes to 11) and have the noise nazi's shut you down...
maybe that's why i'm in an acoustic act now...

JayBird · Post by **JayBird** » Saturday Jul 17, 2004

Here is my gripe. The PLCB and other law enforcement agent base a noise violation above a certain decible level during this time and during that time. Now the level tolerated drops after 10:00ish or 11:00ish...correct. This is my point...when these fines are being given out...does the PLCB have a decible reader on hand or is he going by, "i heard this while standing outside or blah, blah, blah...excuses" Let's say that on a hot, hot summer day you decide to open you windows in your house while watching a movie with digital surround sound...gonna be louder that most tv's. now let's say that a law enforcement agent happens to be walking down the sidewalk and the sound from the movie can be heard from his position outside. what are the odds of him writing a fine for this or even bothering to ask for the level to be reduced.

we hear about racial profiling everday...couldn't we call this some sort of profiling. on any given day the law could walk into a bar and give a fine just because they can even when no crime has been done. the law never really shows us the facts. they write us a fine on a slip of paper and we pay it or fight it. ever get a speeding ticket and actually see the radar gun with your posted speed on it...NOPE. as a general population we listen to what the law tells us that we've done right or wrong and we sit back and assume that they were right...not always true!

Post by **Jim Price** » Saturday Jul 17, 2004

I think for us to be able to affect any change to this situation, we need to make the public more aware of it as a problem, and the threat it poses - to the livelihoods of bands/musicians, bar owners, and a form of entertainment that most average people take for granted and don't think about outside of Friday or Saturday nights. From the PLCB and state police LCE strict enforcement of unreasonable noise rules and checkpoints, to local ordinances barring any outdoor loudspeakers (as the City of Altoona apparently has) - while these noise rules and laws might have good intentions in instances where sound is excessive, they are being abused to the point where live music can't operate in a normal manner without the threat of being shut down or fined. We as the music community recognize the problem - we need to inform the public that it IS a problem, and make them aware of what everybody stands to lose if something isn't soon done about it.

Take the City of Altoona loudspeaker case - When I was in Harrisburg for Millennium a few weeks ago, along that city's 2nd Street district there were open-air cafes with acoustic musicians playing, along with Millennium showcases and other entertainment. It was bustling, lively, a fun scene - which brought hundreds of people into downtown Harrisburg on a Friday and Saturday night - it attracted business to downtown eateries (there were even hot dog vendors on the street at 2 AM!), and - at least to this visitor - gave downtown Harrisburg the image of being a happening place! But you won't see anything like this in Altoona in the near future as long as the powers that be - both local and state - continue to keep unreasonable laws and rules on the books that make it impossible for music or entertainment to be heard outside private businesses in any way, shape or form - even in places where there are no neighbors to complain about it! While the intention might be to curb excessive noise, the long-range effect is the stifling of ALL outside noise, preventing even a positive scenario like a downtown "strip district" idea to come together. The 4D's Lounge wants to run acoustic performers on their new outdoor deck when it opens, but the City of Altoona's strict noise policies won't allow outside speakers - with noisy 17th Street on one side, and Pleasant Valley Boulevard, I-99, and businesses on two sides (the nearest houses are a hundred yards or so up the hill on the 4th side, beyond the Dees parking lot), just who would be offended by music on this outside deck? Hell, 17th Street itself would create more decibels than acoustic acts on the deck!

At present, the LCE can move about at will and harass local venue owners about noise, and with the City of Altoona's own noise policies being just as unreasonable, there's no local authority to stand in the LCE's way! We could try to attack this thing on the state level (try to get the PLCB rules about noise changed), but I think we need to attack it on the local level first, by raising community awareness that this problem does exist and needs fixed!

I agree with noAngel, I think voicing complaints on WRTA would be a good initial way to increase public awareness of these matters. Besides being a good forum to get the issue out in front of the public a little more, local politicians and lawmakers often listen in to WRTA as well - discussion about the PLCB and local noise ordinances would reach their ears and possibly get on their radar screens. Letters to the local newspaper would also be a good way to get it started.

I probably can't get away with reporting noise "busts" on the "Backyard Rocker" per se, but I can report any organized efforts to address the problems (as I did last year with the PLCB underage/chaperone fiasco, I updated the legislative process to overturn the chaperone ruling, which was public record). If any organized efforts can come together and present public meetings, rallies, letter-writing or petition campaigns, etc.; I would be glad to promote and get the word out about them on the program.

But don't stop with the "Backyard Rocker" - if such organized efforts do come together, notify the local television stations, other local radio, newspapers, anyone who might be able to give it coverage.

Post by **Jim Price** » Saturday Jul 17, 2004

One more thought...If an organized effort can come together to tackle this issue, visiting an Altoona City Council meeting and raising a stink about the noise laws would get some coverage (and I'm not sure, but I think local access TV still airs the Council meetings).

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Saturday Jul 17, 2004

Forget decibels, the "rule" (not law) states "Entertainment/Music heard outside of a licensed premises"

That means that if they stand at the edge of the property and can hear it, its in violation. It is NOT a law, Sooooo...

After thinking about it, I don't think ANYONE would be opposed to a new Liquor Law that would define reasonable excessive noise levels. Of course, the db levels would have to be reasonable to both business and residents.

Since there presently is no LL noise law, per se, I think we should put together a Liquor Law for noise based on State College's noise ordinance where there is a set db limit and the officers must use db meters to determine legal noise level. We need to get a petition with lots of signatures and bring this proposal to our state representatives. Of course, we'd have to raise the noise level with the media.

Remember, our right to rock & roll ends at another person's property line. Let's see if we can't make the rules this time!

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Saturday Jul 17, 2004

lonewolf wrote:Forget decibels, the "rule" (not law) states "Entertainment/Music heard outside of a licensed premises"

That means that if they stand at the edge of the property and can hear it, its in violation. It is NOT a law, Sooooo...

After thinking about it, I don't think ANYONE would be opposed to a new Liquor Law that would define reasonable excessive noise levels. Of course, the db levels would have to be reasonable to both business and residents.

Since there presently is no LL noise law, per se, I think we should put together a Liquor Law for noise based on State College's noise ordinance where there is a set db limit and the officers must use db meters to determine legal noise level. We need to get a petition with lots of signatures and bring this proposal to our state representatives. Of course, we'd have to raise the noise level with the media.

Remember, our right to rock & roll ends at another person's property line. Let's see if we can't make the rules this time!

I fully agree with this. I don't think it's wrong to have noise ordinances; everyone's rights should be respected, and that includes the people who live in the neighborhood of the club. But, those ordiances have to be cleary defined and RATIONAL. As it is now, the enforcers can use any subjective criteria they want to say that a club is being too loud. I think that this here may be a good platform.

ToonaRockGuy · Post by **ToonaRockGuy** » Saturday Jul 17, 2004

Seems to me that this is just the type of issue that Blair County Collective was created for. However, I don't know if BCC even exists anymore.

Getting a group together for a good cause is one thing. Keeping it going and growing it is another.

So, maybe BCC should be resurrected?

grimmbass · Post by **grimmbass** » Saturday Jul 17, 2004

Fellow musicians and music fans,

Bob and JP tell the truth....the PLCB came into Peter C's and shut us down. It is flat out impossible to have any kind of live music in a small venue and not be able to hear it outside. The outdoor volume was not excessive and probably could not have been heard from within any of the adjoining residences or businesses. Just because a person can hear it outside does not mean it is excessive.

So why has the Altoona Ballpark not been fined for sporting events which can be clearly heard throughout Altoona? They serve alcohol there, meaning they are also covered by PCLB law. Bottom line: PLCB is enforcing unrealistic and out of date ordinances, and they are doing so SELECTIVELY.

I'd be happy to back JP's idea of a lobby group....the key is to be rational and respectful rather than angry, despite how angry these situations can make us. I don't understand for the life of me why the great state of PA is so hot on busting and shutting down tax and permit paying bar owners. The PLCB has gone beyond an enforcement agency to become a harrasment machine.

I'd be happy to help organize. I nominate JP to be the lead on this one....anybody willing to second the motion?

Kent

tonefight · Post by **tonefight** » Sunday Jul 18, 2004

I would definalty second that but can he fit it in his schedule? He keeps pretty occupied, can anyone volunteer to be his secretary for the mission?

rug · Post by **rug** » Sunday Jul 18, 2004

kevin's exactly right, this is the kind of issue the BCC was created for, but after a year of only a handful of musicians participating on a constant basis it kind of fell to the wayside. i believe ressurrection is quite possible though. what do YOU think?????

TheMadMuse · Post by **TheMadMuse** » Sunday Jul 18, 2004

I am not by skill a musician...but I am a performer. I consider us all who are serious about our craft as artists. I am saddened to hear about the issuing of a fine to a venue that helps those who want to perform. I attended the gig earlier in the evening and was not blown out the doors by the noise and was unaware of it's level being considered a disturbance. It was just a bunch of artists expressing thier opnion through thier craft.(GO GRIMM!) The fine was uncalled for. So I went to moveon.org and tried to do some more political research...not just for musicians but for all of us in the arts. The politicians we are under...generally don't give a shit about the state of the art world here. But John Murtha at least votes on art issues in a progressive manner (progressivepunch.org). Not that I could possibly represent the area artists in an all encompassing manner, but I sent him an e-mail, or at least his offices, about the discrimination we are under by some of the older members of our community. I pointed out that this area is interested in keeping our younger people here...but we have nothing substantial in the way of cultural programs to interest them (music, theatre, whatever). We are treated as extra curricular people and at most times a nusiance to the 'values' that are held by people still stuck in Dean Martin land (I didn't really word it that way). I have left this area several times in pusuit of my own art and have returned several times for family and personal reasons, and now I am raising my own child and cannot just run everytime my elder community feels threatened by a new age. I did bring up the fact that the bust on the bar seemed more like an act of discrimination... not done out of 'protect and serve' morality. As a theatre artist I have always tried to bring all art forms together in the pursuit of perfomance and expression. I am working now to push the numbers of people in attendance (please step away from the television) and have a group of good artists who are willing to support this effort. If you choose to put the BCC back together (or what means you plan on dealing with this)....please let me know. Myself and others are willing to help. We know live performance is better...it's a shame we have to put our time into getting the right to perform anywhere...anytime. And JP...I have hope that someday we will have a 'millenium music festival' atmosphere. I've seen it...I know what you are talking about.

Hannibal · Post by **Hannibal** » Sunday Jul 18, 2004

It's too bad this had to happen. I don't necessarily subscribe to the line "if it's too loud, you're too old. " I like a good driving sound as well as the next guy. I've been in places where we had to turn it down [before fines were invented for this problem]. Volume of music sometimes seems to be too loud if you just don't like the music. That's not scientific, that's just a matter of musical taste. If there has to be a regulation, make it based on something that can be measured, not just a judgement call. Specify xxdB SPL, C Weighting, or some other rational number which can be measured by the sound engineer, club owner, or somebody making random checks outside the venue to prevent problems. If you don't ask for specifics, it will continue to be "It's just too loud." Also, I think the neighborhood should be taken into consideration. If there are not neighbors to complain, give it a reasonable level AT THE PROPERTY LINE, not with the venue door open on a warm night.

FatVin · Post by **FatVin** » Monday Jul 19, 2004

The Pennslyvania Code: (Isn't that State Law?)

Title 40

Subchapter C Amusement and Entertainment

§ 5.32. Restrictions/exceptions.
(a) A licensee may not use or permit to be used inside or outside of the licensed premises a loudspeaker or similar device whereby the sound of music or other entertainment, or the advertisement thereof, can be heard on the outside of the licensed premises.

hey rule, law, law, rule, who give a rat's ass, the point is that the PLCB is beating us up with it and it's bullshit.

Grimmbass Wrote:

It is flat out impossible to have any kind of live music in a small venue and not be able to hear it outside.

where have I heard that before.......

Someone suggested we create a lobby and watchdog organization, someone else suggested that create the preception that we are intelligent professionals and not just fighting for our right to party

I've only been screaming my head off about this shit for 3 years

Look, credit is not the issue, I'm sorry this happened to the Grim, I'm sorry this happened to Peter C's. That fact that I've been talking about it for a long time and almost nobody paid any real attention to it gives me no satisfaction, My question to all of you is this:

Are we really gonna finally do something about this now? or are we just gonna harraumph some more

Imgrimm01 · Post by **Imgrimm01** » Monday Jul 19, 2004

Vin is right. This happened on Friday night we've spent the weekend talking about it , NOW it is time to act I also support having J.P. head this up that is if he is willing and able please J.P. let us know I will call you this week if I don't see a post on here from you by Wed. , the next thing we will do is schedule a meeting also ASAP !! Please folks the time for talking has passed. Those of you who know club owners talk to them and let them know our plan , this issue concerns them and we will certainly need them. I'm going to be as Pro active as I can be here but I will really need the suport of all of you. Don't let me down !!

FatVin · Post by **FatVin** » Monday Jul 19, 2004

I managed to get the following published in the PA musician Last year, Maybee I'll try the Mirror:

Anyone who sings, sings the blues
By E. Vincent “Fat Vinny” Kelly

In The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania it can be truly said that anyone who sings, sings the blues. Making music for money is tough enough without having to deal with cops and lawyers and judges, (oh, my!) but here in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, it seems like the entire state is against the making of music. There are laws on the books in this state that are silly, like for example: did you know that singing in the bathtub is illegal in PA? Then there are laws that are not so silly. One of my favorites (he said sarcastically) is Title 40, Chapter 5, Section 32, Paragraph A, which states:

A licensee may not use or permit to be used inside or outside of the licensed premises a loudspeaker or similar device whereby the sound of music or other entertainment, or the advertisement thereof, can be heard on the outside of the licensed premises.

What this means to you and me is that any club, bar, or restaurant (that serves alcohol, pretty much all of them, if I’m not mistaken) where your band is playing is in violation of the law, if music can be heard outside of the premises. The problem with this law is that it’s a little vague. A loudspeaker or similar device has no other definition under the law, therefore, it is up to the interpretation of the PLCB or the cops or the courts what constitutes a loudspeaker. Well, what is a loudspeaker? That is a device by which sound is amplified, right? That could mean the Marshall stack you are jamming through but it could also mean the barrel of a drum. That’s right, the stick strikes the drum head, the head vibrates and the sound reverberates through the wood of the barrel and as a result is louder, hence a loudspeaker. The same for the body of an acoustic guitar, the pick strikes the string, the string vibrates, which vibrates the wood of the body of the guitar and gets louder, a loudspeaker, see where I’m going with this?

Then there’s the “heard on the outside of the premises” part. Heard by whom? Do we trust the ears of the investigating Liquor Control guy, or the State cop who was called by a cranky neighbor? Whom? You can hear ordinary conversations outside the premises of most clubs, so what happens when the band tunes up? Under the law, decibels aren’t even discussed, mentioned or referred to, the laws says if it can be heard at all, it’s a violation. It is a scientific fact that frequencies on the low end of the spectrum can be heard for miles, even if the original source is of low volume. Even that run down old joint on the edge of town isn’t safe from the sound police.

Basically, The State Liquor Control board can shut down, or fine out of existence, any club, bar, or restaurant at anytime for any reason because live music is played there. Brother and sisters, we are all at risk. The clubs are the ones who are really at risk here, but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that if the clubs go away that will put a major hurt on us musicians. An over zealous PLCB agent can shut down the places where we make our music at any time and there isn’t a hell of a lot anyone can do about it. I know that enforcement of these laws is different in different areas of the state, so if the PLCB is pesky where you live, (like it is where I live) it’s probably worse for you than it is for others. You can’t stop cops from enforcing the law, even if it’s a stupid law. We shouldn’t try; the police have better things to do.

This is just one law, there are others, like for example Title 40, Chapter 5, Section 31, Paragraph (5) which says that a club doesn’t need an entertainment license if the music played in the club is instrumental. That means if I do Ventures covers no entertainment permit is necessary but the second I open my mouth to sing a permit is required? What’s that about? Here’s another doozy: Title 40, Chapter 3, Section 52, Paragraph (a) says that the t-shirts, CD’s and other stuff, your band sold this past weekend are illegal. That’s the law.

What about changing the laws? A better law, like a reasonable number of decibels at a reasonable distance, would be fair. The neighbors wouldn’t have to put up with loud music at one-thirty in the morning and the clubs could still hire bands without fear of legal harassment. Nobody wants to rattle the dentures out of Grandma’s head late at night; we just want to play our music, right? A decibel limit would enable bands to check themselves so we could be in compliance with the law; we are after all, professional musicians, not anarchists.

So how do we change a law? Well, honestly, I’m not a hundred percent sure but I do know that 2004 is an election year and a lot of folks who work in the State House in Harrisburg (you know, the people who make and change the laws all the time) are up for re-election and a lot of people are gonna be running for state-wide offices for the first time and those people will want fundraisers and support.

What if, in different parts of the state, the candidates who were friendly to musicians and their rights to make music suddenly had an influx of contributions from good people who held a fundraising show or two? What if a whole bunch of people who never voted before, suddenly decided to vote for the first time? Who would they vote for, I wonder? How could musicians who make people dance and shout and show them a good time night after night influence people? Hmmmm, it makes you wonder, doesn’t it?

Our only other alternative is to completely divorce ourselves from the buying, selling and consumption of alcoholic beverages. (Oh yeah, that’s gonna happen) We are not angels by any stretch of the imagination but we are not criminals either, stupid laws like the ones I’ve mention require us all to act outside the law. If you act outside the law you are denied the protection of the law. Aren’t we musicians abused enough? Bad laws can be changed. 2004 is an election year, we have microphones and we have influence and this year we have leverage and all we want is to make our music. Let’s make The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania a music friendly place to be.

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Monday Jul 19, 2004

I agree with JP in that we should treat this a detriment to tourism. Many hundreds of people come to Altoona on a weekend night to go clubbing, bringing thousands of "tourism" dollars every night. Altoona cannot survive without out-of-town money coming in, and these nuisance noise laws/rules stifle not only the arts, but the free flow of business from entertainment providers to entertainment consumers.
Altoona has a long tradition of quality entertainment, from the vaudeville days of the Mishler Theatre, to the many small-scale summer music festivals. Denying local musicians the ability to make their art, will stop this tradition dead in it's tracks.
If alcohol and morality are at issue, then pull the Blair County Ballpark's beer license, as any program material coming from their sound system can be heard nearly half a mile away. Perhaps some of Altoona's elite investors losing their money will shed a bit more light on the "little guy."
I'm betting a hundred long-hairs walking in on a city council meeting will achieve nothing but bad publicity, for the same reason walking into McDonalds in facepaint will empty the place... people see what they want to see based on their own morality. Altoona is a grey-haired place, and morally stuck in the 1950's.
I think any organizing should be loose... many smaller teams doing guerilla-style tactics. A hundred guys calling WRTA will get old fast. Two guys calling EVERY DAY... how can they stop that? Hey, it works for Al Qaeda in Iraq.---->JMS

ROCKPAGE

The Noise Gestapo Strikes Again!

The Noise Gestapo Strikes Again!

indeed

The mentality.....

Yup