Political Poll for Gay Marriage

[songsmith]

Okay, here's a question:
Why is it okay to be militantly gay? If I'm not supposed to define someone by their sexuality, then why is it expected for gay people to define themselves by their sexuality. And why can't I, as a heterosexual man, therefore, be militantly hetero?
I believe that being gay, or black, or being persecuted for any reason entitles a person to... nothing. If you feel you need your pound of flesh because people are tough on you, then you need to get your face out of the mirror, drop the narcissism, and notice that everybody has their own row to hoe, and we all get sh*t from other people. If you aren't ridiculed for being gay, you get it for being fat, or poor, or dumb, or rural, or clumsy, or unlucky, or whatever else people can use to help themselves feel superior to you. It's human nature and it's biological to "discriminate" because if you're not a predator in nature, you're prey. Does this mean I view gays as lower on the ladder than myself? Um, no, because I'm as big a loser as the next schmuck, so I actually identify with gay men on that front. I'm not athletic, or tough, or even aggressive, and to lots of alpha males, that's the same as gay. But do I think the world owes me a nicer seat on the bus. No. If I deserve something, it's because I earned it.
Which brings me to my point: Don't I even owe gay people my respect? Nope. I don't owe anyone my respect. I owe you the chance to earn my respect, same as you owe me. I don't have a need to hand out validation of gay lifestyle, and really, that's what everybody wants, validation. From my vantage point, it seems that gay culture wants the rest of us to celebrate their gayness, and reward it. I say nobody should be rewarded for being gay or black or anything else. That's true equality... when you're as miserable as I am. True equality would mean the Queer Eye guys would be derided for insulting how straight men dress and live, and pointing out that being gay is somehow better. True equality would notice that, while ten percent of us are gay, ninety percent are not. True equality would pull it's own face from the mirror long enough to look around and notice that roughly the same percentage of gay men and straight men are successful at what they do, and "breeders" are less of a factor for gay men than a culture of self-defeatism and eternal victim syndrome.
As an aside, I find the "born gay" argument interesting, but I don't believe it. On the other hand, perhaps I can now tell people I was born dorky and weird, and they will suddenly forgive me for it.
Now on to more important issues about gayness. I, for one, am appalled that gay men generally can get excellent beans anytime. The Pink Mafia apparently intercepts all the quality beans coming from Canada, prowling the antique shops and wineries in Subaru Forresters, running Ford F-450's off the road and taking all the good Hydro, and leaving us un-high and dry, and relegating us to brown schwag-beans from Mexico. Really. I never met a gay dude who couldn't get good beans. Put that in your stereotype pipe and smoke it. ------->JMS

[VENTGtr]

S.S.,

"Why is it okay to be militantly gay?"

Actually, I don't think I saw anyone on here who was. I saw someone being,
understandably, annoyed that a few saw them as an abomination of humanity
based on a book, or misguided views on what they are, or both.

"And why can't I, as a heterosexual man, therefore, be militantly hetero?"

Well, by virtue of the fact that there's a belief that limiting the rights 2 people
have to decide with whom they want to spend their life, or define how they
do so, you kind of are.

"But do I think the world owes me a nicer seat on the bus."

See, this is the problem. The majority of gay people aren't asking for a "nicer
seat" they're saying they want to same right to a seat that others get.

"I'm not athletic, or tough, or even aggressive, and to lots of alpha males,
that's the same as gay."

Well,...I'm pretty good as sports, have a wife-to-be and an awesome kid, think
people who are "aggressive" have some serious pent up anger issues (I'm
related to some who fit this to a TEE), and have gay friends. I wouldn't think
you're gay. You very well may be, I dunno.

I think those "alpha males" you mentioned....may just be gayer than they'd
like to think. Okay, maybe not all of them, but I hear a lot of these guys say
things and know of them doing things that make one think it's true sometimes.
However, if that's their definition of "gay", they are ignorant.

"True equality would pull it's own face from the mirror long enough to look
around and notice that roughly the same percentage of gay men and straight
men are successful at what they do,..."

When they're given the opportunity, I have no doubt that's true. BUT, I also
have no doubt there are people who won't hire someone because of their race,
orientation, religion, etc. I think you're general point shows that someone
being gay makes them equal to someone who isn't.

Do I think there are people out there who act like they're entitled to something
more? Yep. But I'll bet the "average" gay person would say that person is as
much of an idiot as you would.

"As an aside, I find the "born gay" argument interesting, but I don't believe it."

Not sure how many years of research you put into it, but those who have
REALLY done some have a different view....and that research and knowledge
to prove it.

Will I say there aren't people who's lives have made them "choose" to be gay?
No, I wouldn't say that. I think that number is extremely rare though. I'd be
more sure that the number of gay people who live their lives being "straight"
is pretty huge though.

I DO think an easy answer would be to have everyone go through a civil
ceremony, then they decide if they want to have a"marriage" (Churches can
decide on how/who they want to "marry". That's their rules and if
someone wants to be a part of it, they have to follow it. Religious conviction
by convenience is just funny: "God said gay is bad" but...
"Ya, I'm drunk. I think God's okay with it sometimes").

People can refer to themselves however they want. Not my business, nor is
who they leave their belongings when they die, who they decide can pull the
life plug if they're in an accident, etc. I know when we get married, I want to
have my friend from Ottawa come down here (Or mebbe we go there) perform
it...dressed as Elvis. It's my ONE demand!

"Really. I never met a gay dude who couldn't get good beans."

See, if you REALLY loved your beans, you'd be on a float in a Florida Keys
Pride Parade. You're not doing so is giving fuel to those that would call you
a Bean Poseur".

I'm not saying who might have said something like that....just that such a
rumour might be out there.

[songsmith]

Good points, but most of them operate on the supposition that everybody wants to just be equal. That's patently untrue. Each of us knows how hard we've worked, how much dues we've paid, what we've sacrificed to get something. We know ONLY that, really, so it follows that we don't feel equal... we feel better than the other guy. If I'm gay, and the other guy got the job, it couldn't have been because he's the better man for the job, it's because I'm gay. There, now I don't have to admit my shortcomings. I'm sorry. Being gay is no more difficult than being straight. Life's a bitch. I pay dearly for the choices I make, good or bad. I have weaknesses I must address. Not everybody likes me. I've written a zillion awesome songs nobody will ever hear, and when they hear, they don't always like it.
Shall I proselytize about how haaaaarrrd it is to be a straight white guy? Is that what we do? Look at how our society views US. Somehow, it's assumed that I am personally responsible for everything bad. Just being white makes me inherently racist. Just being heterosexual makes me a gay-basher. Just being a man makes me too aggressive and powerful. It's all over the media... I am responsible for wars, politics, crime, prejudice, greed, etc. Now let's look at the world from my window: I keep my head down, do the work I do the best I can, and try not to complain. I put my wife on a pedestal, and wish I had a kid to carry on after I'm gone. I do what the boss tells me to, and I try to do things I can be proud of. I largely keep my opinion of people to myself, because my opinion plus a buck buys a cup of coffee. In return, I get to be the world's villain. Go on and on ad infinitum about how difficult being gay is, and I'll answer in kind on every single issue. True equality would mean that, between gay people and straight people, nobody would win the argument. Gay people wouldn't allow that to happen, would they? So why should straight people? Is it because we're inherently wrong? (That's rhetorical. If anyone answers, "yes," it would instantly prove my point.)

Oh, yeah, re: gay marriage... Love who you want. Screw who you want, it's never been about that for me. Call it what you want. Get healthcare and tax breaks, hey more power to ya. Expect me to give it the same credence and weight as my own marriage?... Hell, I don't even do that with other straight marriages. Completely remove my view from the table? How is that progress? That's the same tactic used by the so-called moral majority. Is that where gay people want to take it? Far left or far right, it's all closed-minded bullsh*t to me.

Before you get too angry at me, Dave, thanks for the discussion. I love real dialogue.---------->JMS

[VENTGtr]

SS,

"Before you get too angry at me, Dave, thanks for the discussion. I love real dialogue."

No man, not all. There's no anger, believe me. I too like the dialogue, and think
any of these discussions are, generally, really healthy.

I agree that no one WANTS to be equal, per se. Every guy/woman in every band on
here wants to be the best they can and wants to feel like their band is better than
everyone else's.

Now, band and music-wise, that's possible to an extent. But, as human beings, as
an animal, there's nothing inherent in any of our "groups", for lack of a better word,
that makes any of us better than anyone else.

"If I'm gay, and the other guy got the job, it couldn't have been because he's the
better man for the job, it's because I'm gay."

But see, that's thinking that everyone who's gay who's not gotten a particular job
feels that way. I don't think you think that's the case.

"Shall I proselytize about how haaaaarrrd it is to be a straight white guy?"

Is this about the beans again?

"Just being white makes me inherently racist. Just being heterosexual makes me a
gay-basher. Just being a man makes me too aggressive and powerful."

You're right that there are people who feel that way. I've known some and had
people think that about me before having any idea of what I was about. BUT, they're
also wrong in making that stereotype. Which is just more proof that all stripes have
those that have misguided ideas. The idea, and ideal, should be to get past there
being different stripes. Quixotic? Mebbe. But so is practicing every day of your life
to play Segovia under the table. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try even if it's not totally
possible. Actually, changing a mindset can be way easier.

"True equality would mean that, between gay people and straight people, nobody
would win the argument."

Ideally, it would mean that there is no argument. But, when there are some SERIOUS
hating people out there, like the Baptist church from Kansas going to celebrate the
bridge crashing in MN as "God's will" because Minnesotans "tolerate" homosexuals,
you have to understand where their concern is.

As long as they're not allowed to have the same basic rights as those of us that are
straight, they have every right, if not responsibility to keep the discussion going.

"Is it because we're inherently wrong?"

That's presuming that everyone straight is part os the "us".

I don't think most people who are against gay marriage are necessarily bad people
(Certainly no more than anyone else). I've known a lot who've had an issue with the
idea of it, then when they actually got know someone who is, did a total 180 and saw
"them" just as people. Faults, plusses, etc. the same as everyone else.

Now this. Every have those little EasyMac macaroni and cheese things? Take one
of those, heat it up, and stir in one those little cheese snack stick things with the
cheese packet. Lord. Just had one with a really late lunch. Exxcceelllent.

Later on SS,
DaveP.

[bassist_25]

"As an aside, I find the "born gay" argument interesting, but I don't believe it."

Not sure how many years of research you put into it, but those who have
REALLY done some have a different view....and that research and knowledge
to prove it.

...and that research and knowldege to find evidence to support it. Nothing's ever proven in science. Sorry Dave, maybe it's just an argument of semantics, but it's one that drives me nuts. What's currently believed could always change. Tomorrow, there could be a great empirical study that finds that homosexuality is caused by watching old episodes of She-Ra between ages 2 - 6, but currently, the evidence isn't pointing to socialization factors.

Basically things break down like this. All of us start out as females. It's through the androgenization process that we take on male characteristcs. There is a difference between "male" brains and "female" brains, and it is possible to be born a genetic male and have a "female" brain. A great source of evidence that homosexuality isn't a mere social development is the story of David/Bruce Reimer. After he was born, his circumsicision got screwed up and really messed up his penis (too bad Kramer wasn't there to stop the ceremony. Sorry, I'm full of Seinfeld references today ). The doctors suggested to his parents to do sex-reassignment surgery and raise him as a girl. Unfortunately, he dealt with anxiety all of his life because he felt more male than female. The reason was because even though he had the physical antomy of a female and was socialized to be a female, he still had a male brain. The story ends tragically, but for anyone interested in it, I suggest doing a little research. It's fascinating. Keep in mind that a lot of psychology isn't purely nature vs. nuture, but is rather an interaction between the environment and instrinic genetic factors that express themselves as observale behavior and phenotypes with the intensity being based on a person's instrinsic reaction range (i.e., there are different shades of homosexuality; one isn't entirely straight nor entirely gay).

I actually do see both Dave's side and Johnny's side in this argument about rights and equality. Most of the gay people I've met aren't crusaders or martyrs; they just want to be left alone and be able to pursue happiness just like everybody else. I'm pro-gay marriage, not so much because of a deep emotion for the gay person's plight, but because at the heart of most of my political philosophy, I'm a libertarian and think that everyone has the right to pursue happiness so long as it doesn't maliciously affect others.

I think that a truly egalitarian society is a utopian dream and is the reason why communism will always fail. We aren't all equal. If we were, then I should be a star in the NBA, despite the fact that I suck at sports. Kareoke singers should be packing the dance floors at local clubs. The drunken chick singing Paradise by the Dashboard Light slurred and 95 cents out of key should be granted the same musical respect as Felix and the Hurricanes and Flight19. Not!!!

What I do think is that everyone should be granted an equal opportunity to succeed on their own merit, which is a lot different than saying that everyone's equal. If you roll into a job interview with 10 years experience in your field and a graduate degree, that should take precedence over the fact that you're gay or black or a woman. Unfortunately, that's not always the case, and that is what I think is bullshit in this society.

I do agree that "Everyone has a mountain to climb," to quote the Allman Brothers Band. That's why whenever someone comes to this site and bitches about how they can't get their band off the ground or that there aren't any good players around, they get kicked in the groin. Yes, because we all had to pay our dues! Shut up and pay your dues! Sorry, didn't mean to rant there. There are truly victims in life, and they should have their moment to tell their stories.

On the other hand, you can be a victim all of your life or you can create your own destiny. People my define me by whatever labels they wish. The fact is that I define my own existence, and while I'm not a violenty aggressive person, I am the alpha-dawg in that sense. If someone can't dig that, then they can eat my dust (because they inevitably will). Unless you have direct control over how I live my life, then your opinion doesn't affect me. If you do have direct control over my life and are trying to put up a barrier, that just means that I'll have to find a way get around you to obtain what I want. Never take on an external locus of control and let other people define you.

[VENTGtr]

...and that research and knowldege to find evidence to support it. Nothing's ever proven in science. Sorry Dave, maybe it's just an argument of semantics, but it's one that drives me nuts. What's currently believed could always change. Tomorrow, there could be a great empirical study that finds that homosexuality is caused by watching old episodes of She-Ra between ages 2 - 6, but currently, the evidence
isn't pointing to socialization factors.

I definitely agree Paul, but at this point, the actual, real evidence shows what it shows
and that the episodes of She-Ra aren't quite the factor some would like to make them.
I doubt there's anyone on here who has the background to say they've done decades
of actual research and found something different.

As I think someone pointed out earlier, in this society, with all that someone who is gay
may go, with the real fear that someone might kill them over it, how many people would
think "TODAY,...I BECOME...GAY".

She-Ra, huh?

It's not so much a deep emotion for the gay person's plight as that, like you said, I just
think "they" have the right to live their lives as they wish and no one has the right to
say the "can't" get married, be who they are, etc.

Hey, it's just marriage. You get 3 or 4 tries, anyway, right?

Had a similar discussion about race not so long ago with someone who didn't think
people of different ethnicities should be allowed marry (Sadly, there are still some of
those people around). When I pointed out to him that in some places, going by his
rationale, that he wouldn't have been able to marry his wife (Who is way HOT! Talk
about marrying up) because her family was German and his was Slovac (Not to mention
one had a Catholic upbringing, one Protestant), he got in quite the little sissy huff
saying how that was different. I said "Ya, easy to say "it's different" when you're the
one who's being told you're "Not allowed", eh?".

I'm not saying everyone is equally good at everything by any stretch. Obviously,
that's not ture. I'm saying that none of, because of our race, religion, orientation, etc.
are "better" people.

What I do think is that everyone should be granted an equal opportunity to succeed on their own merit, which is a lot different than saying that everyone's equal. If you roll into a job interview with 10 years experience in your field and a graduate degree, that should take precedence over the fact that you're gay or black or a woman. Unfortunately, that's not always the case, and that is what I think is bullshit in this society.

Absolutely. And, at the same time someone shouldn't be sitting there saying "Ya, they
have 10 year's experience, a graduate degree, etc. BUT, they are black" so they won't
be hired.

I've had these kinds of discussions countless times and the one thing that seems most
prevalent is that those who actually HAVEN'T had this kind of "reverse discrimination"
(Awful term. Discrimination is discimination) seem to have all this "knowledge" of it
happening all the time.

"Unless you have direct control over how I live my life, then your opinion doesn't affect
me. If you do have direct control over my life and are trying to put up a barrier, that just
means that I'll have to find a way get around you to obtain what I want.

Agreed, and the people who think they have a right to decide who someone else can,
or can't, marry based on THEIR ideals are wanting just that control. The second we
decide we have a right to impede someone's most basic rights, we instantly lose
the right to complain when someone does the same to us.

[songsmith]

On the other hand, you can be a victim all of your life or you can create your own destiny. People my define me by whatever labels they wish. The fact is that I define my own existence, and while I'm not a violenty aggressive person, I am the alpha-dawg in that sense. If someone can't dig that, then they can eat my dust (because they inevitably will). Unless you have direct control over how I live my life, then your opinion doesn't affect me. If you do have direct control over my life and are trying to put up a barrier, that just means that I'll have to find a way get around you to obtain what I want. Never take on an external focus of control and let other people define you.

That should go in the Gay Handbook. If only so I can tell people Paul wrote the book on being gay. Seriously, it's about doing your thing, and not taking what is assumed to be the feminine, and therefore the submissive role. This assumption of the victim's role is one of the things that make me believe that homosexuality's roots are nurture over nature. It seems to me to be an identification with perceived feminine attributes, either in the presence of a strong masculine role model, or a negative masculine role model. Obviously, this doesn't speak to gay women, whose sexuality appears to be quite different in structure and causation (thank goodness!). I've had a few very frank conversations with a lesbian couple who are close friends, with one partner who shared a very similar background to my own (very poor rural Evangelical upbringing). One woman was sexualized at an early age, at a crucial point in the development of her sexuality. They both agreed that this is a HUGE issue, that a discernible majority of lesbians were sexualized by men in power situations, thus creating a real hate for masculine men inexplicably coupled to a desire to exude those exact masculine qualities. That internal struggle may be what makes the short-haircut crowd so pissed-off and contentious. Of course they still have time to hate on me. The other partner is someone who I don't think of as gay, at least not in the strictest sense of the term. She was also sexualized at a fairly early age, but not by a family member or someone in a power situation. She was just 12 and curious, and it went too far. She had been married, and in fact, raised her children in that marriage. When that ended, she just wanted to be loved. It didn't really matter by whom. That's not gay, it's just desperate and lonely, and more open-minded than I'm capable of being. I don't know if gay men feel that way or not, but if there's so much evidence that women "become" gay, it would figure for men, too. Obviously, that "evidence" is anecdotal, and based on my zero years of study in sociology, anthropology, and internet porn sites.
I do have to ask, why is it important for gay men to believe they were born gay, that it was out of their control? Is it because they themselves see homosexuality as bad, and therefore need to absolve themselves from personal responsibility of it? Also, are other types of sexuality the result of biological triggers, like asexuality, sexual addictions, and the like? Why wouldn't they be?
Again, I think everybody has their river of sh*t to swim against every day. Gayness is no different than straightness, and no more difficult. I think if you feel differently, it's not about societal issues. It's about you.You can't control the world, only how you react to it. Cowboy up, and move on.-------->JMS

[Team Transylvania]

Only ONE member who is actually GAY here voiced their opinions?
Where's the rest of you??? Dont be shy.

My uncle is GAY. Always has been. Yay for him. I still dont agree with it.

Gays are notorious for being very deviant and having unprotected sex. If you dont agree, youre lying to yourself. Go to Adult World in duncansville once. Its a Deviant Gay Man meeting ground. Guys go there to hook up with other guys for 5 mins all the time! That place is a disease with doors.
If you doubt that, just go in there and hang out for a few hours, im sure youll get propositioned atleast once by some deviant dirty old gay dude.
if you want more examples, ill be happy to provide them.
(brown fingerprints on the booth walls .....yeah.. YUCK!!!!)

I really dont have a problem with gay people. What i have a problem with is gay people whining all the time about wanting to get married.
By DEFINITION, its between a MAN AND WOMAN!!!!
Quit whining. Be gay, be proud. Just do your own thing and stop trying to get everything the next guy has. If you wanna have the traditional marriage, GET A WOMAN!!!
You shouldnt need a piece of paper to validate your relationship with your male lover. Youre looking for approval from other people, when on the sane hand, you say you dont need it. Pick one and stick to it.
I would like to hear what other gay RP members have to say. Even you 'higher up' ones.

[Punkinhead]

I always thought, until I met my wife, that tags such as marriage, even boyfriend/girlfriend were nothing more than a way to label something and make something/someone into a possession. I understand now that that view was completely wrong for many, many reasons.

I do think that everyone should be able to fully commit to someone if they want to regardless of their sexual preference. Love is love and to deny someone the ability to completely and fully commit to someone they have those types of feelings for is fucking stupid. It just is. No longer are we talking about opinions on right and wrong. Laws that deny some humans happiness but, allow it for others are nothing if not wrong.

[AnimalInstinct625]

"My uncle is GAY. Always has been. Yay for him. I still dont agree with it."

It's not your right to "agree" or "disagree" with it. Unless it affects you directly, and is something that affects you as a person, you have no say!

"Gays are notorious for being very deviant and having unprotected sex. If you dont agree, youre lying to yourself. Go to Adult World in duncansville once. Its a Deviant Gay Man meeting ground. Guys go there to hook up with other guys for 5 mins all the time! That place is a disease with doors.
If you doubt that, just go in there and hang out for a few hours, im sure youll get propositioned atleast once by some deviant dirty old gay dude.
if you want more examples, ill be happy to provide them.
(brown fingerprints on the booth walls .....yeah.. YUCK!!!!)"

Sounds like you've been there before? HA!

Well basically, all I can say is this: MEN in general are hogs. We all are, gay or straight. But, you can't judge ALL men for what the MAJORITY do. I know more straight men that have unprotected sex than gay men. As for "deviant gay man meeting grounds" - I've never been to one, never intend on it. They ARE gross....and I can agree with you on that. But basically, these designated "hook-up" areas are for MARRIED MEN to DISCREETLY have sex with another man, no strings attached.

In short - the majority of them "deviant gay men" are actually claiming to be heterosexual, and doing it behind their families backs.

I really dont have a problem with gay people. What i have a problem with is gay people whining all the time about wanting to get married.
By DEFINITION, its between a MAN AND WOMAN!!!!
Quit whining. Be gay, be proud. Just do your own thing and stop trying to get everything the next guy has. If you wanna have the traditional marriage, GET A WOMAN!!!

Well obviously there are tax cuts and financial BENEFITS to being married that just a couple wouldn't have otherwise. For starters, if my boyfriend is in the hospital on his death bed....I have no rights to go in and see him before he dies.

I also like how you kind of "SHUSH" the gays. Like, "Get in line, go with the flow. Quit causing a stir JUST so you can have equality in life." HAHA...that's so funny. You *HAVE* to be republican to have come up with something like that.

As for "GETTING A WOMAN"....it's just about as easy for you to go "GET A MAN". We'd be just as sickened by the idea.

Overall...your argument means nothing, because you can tell you have NO idea what it's like being gay, or growing up gay, or just LIVING in todays society, as a homosexual.

Thanks to people like you, it isn't easy.

You shouldnt need a piece of paper to validate your relationship with your male lover. Youre looking for approval from other people, when on the sane hand, you say you dont need it. Pick one and stick to it.
I would like to hear what other gay RP members have to say. Even you 'higher up' ones.

That "piece of paper" is legal documentation which can benefit the couple greatly, and give them special rights they wouldn't have had un-married.

I can understand that people don't want to be gay, and that the idea makes them a little "sick"....but this is a result of having a closed mind. People who oppose gays strongly are usually not very open minded people, and are people who don't put themselves in the shoes of others.

All I can say is...try to imagine what it would be like not being able to love a WOMAN (as a man). Kind of hard, eh?

[Colton]

It's not your right to "agree" or "disagree" with it. Unless it affects you directly, and is something that affects you as a person, you have no say!

Woah, gravedigging eh? Dunno even what to say here, other than thats the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard.

[AnimalInstinct625]

My point was simply...how can you be so strongly opposed to something that doesn't affect you? I didn't mean it literally.

Slavery was also a traditional institution at one point. The bible condoned that type of behavior too.

Not something I fully believe God intended.

[Colton]

I don't have an opinion on this really either way. I don't even know anyone who's gay.

"If gays want to get married and be miserable like the rest of us, I say go ahead and let'm" - Peter Griffin

[metalchurch]

If you guys are going to SanFrancisco, be sure to wear a flower in your hair.

[AnimalInstinct625]

...interesting.

[slackin@dabass]

whatever. as so and so said before, the fact that our government with a seperation between church and state recognizes marriage wich is a religous tradition, then what the fuck sense does that make?

as for people that say that being gay is wrong because the bible says it is remember, the bible also says that to have long hair is a sin unto yourself, you can stone your kids to death (and not the good kinda stoned) for dis-obeying you, and if you work on the sabbath, it's a one way ticket to hell. so. if any of you religious bible thumping pricks would like to use the bible (wich was written thousands of years ago by alot of different people) to denote how people today should live their lives, then i have only one suggestion.

use grimm's fairy tales. it's newer and probably about as truthful, and i think more of the situations relate to today.

oh yea. 2 dudes wanna get hitched? whatever. i don't give a shit. it's the pride parade that pisses me off. if you wanna suck a dick, that's your business, you don't have to walk down the street and yell it at the top of your lungs. if i organized a straight pride parade i'm pretty sure that people would be pissed

[seven_star_customz]

what diffrence does it make>? I dont neccisarily agree with it. but im not gay either. I could care less.