What key am I in??

[ragztem]

OK, i have been trying to figure this whole key thing out, and i dont seem to get it.... if i am playing any series of chords, how on earth do i figure the key, i heard its the root note of the main chord, but how do you know what the main chord is? any suggestions?

[lonewolf]

OK, i have been trying to figure this whole key thing out, and i dont seem to get it.... if i am playing any series of chords, how on earth do i figure the key, i heard its the root note of the main chord, but how do you know what the main chord is? any suggestions?

There is no easy general rule to that because there are so many possible conbinations. It depends on the series of chords and the scale that is made up by the notes in the chords, variations, etc., etc.,

A basic rock example with a slight trick would be Sweet Home Alabama with DMaj - CMaj - GMaj. It is the basic I, IV, V rock progression, only played backwards and is the key of GMajor. G=I C=IV D=V.

Beyond that, you would need to understand some music theory (you know, those nasty lessons and such).

After getting some theory, and if you can find it, get the book "Guitar Fingerboard Harmony" by Ed McGuire, Mel Bay publications.

[facingwest]

Finding the key to a song can be tricky unless you know music theory. Search online for what is called the circle of 5ths to determine the key you're in.

In the key of C, there aren't any Flats or Sharps. Each key you're in will have a determining way of recognizing. To know that you're in the right key, you should be able to sing Do-Re-Mi-Fa-So-La-Ti-Do over the entire pattern if it is in a Major key. Technically, the only notes that matter are the Do, Mi, and So. These three pitches make a chord.

If it's a Minor key, there is something called Relative Major/Relative Minor and it's used in a lot of minor keys. An example would be in the Key of E Minor, you'd actually be playing the notes of G Major. From G working backwards to E, there are 3 chromatic steps. This same example can be used in any key if you're playing in minor.

Something else to determine whether you can play a penatonic scale over a chord progression is actually 1 note (technically 2). If you go back to the Do-Re-Me example from above, as long as you didn't hit the Mi pitch, you could technically play major over minor or vice versa.

By this point, I'm probably confusing you, but what's funny is once you grasp it, you'll learn that sometimes it doesn't make a difference as long as something sounds good and is what melody you want to play over a chord progression.

[FatVin]

The rule of thumb I was always taught is that the first chord tends to be the key, now there are lots of exceptetions but that's a good place to start, but if doesn't feel right, start with the chorus.

Sweet home alabama is actually in a mode, mixolydian I think. and what that means is that you use the G scale but you start on D.

In a major scale the interval between notes goes some thing this:

(I)whole step,(II) whole step, (III)Half step,(IV) whole step,(V) Whole step,(VI) whole step,(VII) half step.(I)

in mixolydian mode, it still the same scale you just start at a different place for example.

(V)Whole step,(VI) whole step,(VII) half step (I)whole step,(II) whole step,(III) Half step,(IV) whole step.(V)

relative majors and minors are actually modes if you play a C major scale in, I think it's Aolean mode (starts with 6) you have an A minor scale. The names of the modes are greek, literally and I can't remember them been many moons since I took theory but that's the gist of it.

That's really getting into some heavy theory
see my rule of thuimb above

[facingwest]

The only difference between Mixo and Ionian is the 7th note (Ti) of the scale is flattened. Say in the Key of G, to play a mixo scale, all you'd do is add F instead of F#. The only other Major scale within the modes is Lydian. The difference between that and Ionian is you sharpen the 4th (Fa). Still in the key of G, instead of playing a C, you'd play C#.

[SUperstar]

I have always used Fat Vin's Method. Also pay attention to what chord your song ENDS on.. it several times my be the same as the beginngin chord... But thats what usually works well.

[bassist_25]

Sometimes the key of the song irrelevant because the chord progression is not diatonic. You'll find this very often in Rock music, since it's derived from Blues, which is derived from Jazz. For example, if you are playing a 12 bar blues tune, chances are, each chord is derived from the mixoloydian mode. (if it were diatonic, each chord would probaly be derived from ionian, lydian, and mixoloydian) But if it were a Blues tune, you may also be soloing using pentatonics, because the sound of a minor third against a major third gives a cool sound. As a bassist, my lines are going to be based off of the mixoloydian scale.

If you are playing a diatonic chord progression, then knowledge of your modes really comes into play. If you are playing a diatonic chord progression and you are starting in the ionian mode, you should know that:

I = Ionian (Major 7th chord) major 3rd, major 7th
II = Dorian (Minor 7th chord) minor 3rd, minor 7th (but still has a major 6th)
III = Phyrgian (Minor 7th chord) minor 2nd, minor 3rd, minor 6th, minor 7th
IV = Lydian (Major 7th chord) major 3rd, raised 4th, major 7th
V = Mixoloydian (Dominant 7th) major 3rd, minor 7th
VI = Aeolian = (Minor 7th chord) minor 3rd, minor 6th, minor 7th
VII = Locrian = (Dimished 7th chord) minor 2nd, minor 3rd, flatted 5th (which creates a tritone), minor 6th, minor 7th

Those are the 7 modes based off of the major scale. In western music, there are also two other scales that are widely used: the melodic minor scale, and the harmonic minor scale. You can also learn exotic scales, which can add a flavor to your playing. Sometimes they may sound strange because they aren't based on tertian harmony, or don't have 7 notes in them.

[tornandfrayed]

Holy Shit! I guess that's why I am a singer! Usually I just shout "Play something in D!" and the guitar player plays something. If I am feeling adventurous I will say " Play something like this, Da Da do do daaaa daaaa deee grrrrrr gaaaa grrrrr ehhhhh" and the guitar player will play something different then before.

No really keep it coming! I try to learn whenever I can!

This is better then classes!

[rickw]

The book by Ed is sadly out of print, and I mean "sadly" as I lent my former teacher's book to a student and I never got it back! Music theory really isn't as hard as learning, say, Klingon! Nonetheless it does require study. It does come in handy when you're trying to work out a song by ear though. You can get to the point when you can nearly predict what chord changes are coming next during a song you're listening to. Guitarists have it a bit tougher than pianists though. On a piano a middle C is always at the same place on the keyboard. Not so on a guitar's fretboard! And I can't speak Klingon, though it would come in handy at work sometimes.

[facingwest]

Once you learn theory, you're going to realize that it was good to know. However, everything that you play is going to be based from what you put into it. You'll learn how to work outside the box and still keep something in context. There are a few songs where I play something chromatically, yet it fits the feel of a song. Something I can suggest is don't let modes/scales get in the way of what you want to do. Learn it and use it as a guide and feel the song. Honestly, it'll tell you what it needs.

[FatVin]

Wow that was educational

I copied and saved the thing about modes, thanks bassist_25

but I have to correct you on a minor point you wrote:

since it's derived from Blues, which is derived from Jazz

Blues came first, The earliest recordings of Jazz are for the most part blues riffs, case in point, Louis Armstrong's "St, Louis Blues"

Jazz may have been written down and formalized sooner but a lot of the ideas that became the first Jazz recordings were blues ideas.

If you don't agree with me you're not alone, academics have been arguing this one forever, it's a real chicken and the egg kinda deal, anyway

Blues came first.

[bassist_25]

That's cool, Vinny. I'm not going to disagree with you. It all influences each other.

I'm not a genere nazi, but we could have an argument of what is truly "Jazz" or not. Some people consider Dixieland to be an early form of Jazz. Like wise, when you say, "Jazz", some people think of Swing or Jump Blues. For me, modern Jazz began with Bop. And that of course, evoled into West Coast Jazz, and then Hard Bop, and then Modal Jazz, and so on and so on. Then alot of Fusion and Jazz-Funk groups came out, such as Weather Report, Return to Forever, and Mahavishnu Orchestra. A lot of people didn't consider that to be truly Jazz; which is the same for a lot of the Smooth Jazz we're hearing nowadays. I really don't care on whether something is truly Jazz, I dig everything from Bop to Smooth.

Speaking of the Blues - that Blues series they ran last winter on PBS changed my whole perception of popular music. I knew that a lot of modern music was derived from Blues, but I thought it was mainly just from the pentatonic melodies, and I, IV, V chord progressions. By hearing all of that old Delta Blues stuff by Skip James and Robert Johnson, I could hear all of the influence it has in Rock, Country, Gospel, Pop, and even Hip-hop. It truly does all come from the Blues.

[Punkinhead]

If you want to know what key you're in, look for your sharps and flats....follow the circles of 5ths and 4ths

generally, the best way to know what key you're in is to have all the major scales memorized (use the interval structure to it if you really want to), that way you can base the chords to the scale tones....this is ONLY GENERAL but it's a start....

If you want a book, I'd suggest Guitar Works(Hal Leonard) or something from the GIT series...Mel Bay books while good, are not the best theory books out there, I tend to not use them for my students once they get past the mid-intermediate level....

[facingwest]

This is a good illustration of the circle of 5ths. http://www.cyberfret.com/theory/circle- ... /index.php

[redawg]

I learned the Nashville number system. Ron Greene has a really cool tool out called the rhythem guitar dial. You can get one for leads and bass too. From what I get out of it, theory is like the english language. There are general rules but there are exceptions. When you figure out the key of a song, there are 7 basic chords and scales you use to stay in key. All 7 scales and chords have variations. The chord dial says that songs generally start on the 1st or the 6th note of the key. That would mean in the key of C, the first chord of the song would be C major (1st) or A minor (6th). The guitar dial actually shows 6 common chords/scales and 2 optional ones (flatted third and flatted seventh). The system is based on 7 though.

[ragztem]

holy smokes! thats a lot to take in, i appreciate all the effort....looks like its s question that had more of a complicated response then i thought...thanks all for the responses!