Do BANDS help create nuisance bars?

[BDR]

As a spinoff of a sidebar discussion in the "Freakin' LCB!!!" thread, how much responsiblity do bands shoulder in the fight to keep the authorities out of venues?

It's always been my belief that if a bar hires your band to play, you're being contracted, not only to bring new clientele in, but also to orchestrate the activities for the night. Now, if I push the crowd to react in such a way that things are getting broken or destroyed, then I've crossed a line, IMO. If trouble breaks out at a show, especially if a negative atmosphere is being created by the entertainment, then I think it's partially the band's responsibility to put an abrupt halt to it. For example, our last Castle Pub gig included three fights. This is not typical by any stretch, but it happens — one bad apple. The last fight occurred when we were playing "Killing" by Rage Against The Machine. We immediately stopped playing dead in the middle of the song, I ridiculed the childish behavior through the PA for a minute, then we broke into "Kum-ba-yah" to further make a spectacle of the people who couldn't control their emotions. Meanwhile, the offenders were being escorted outside and then we started back up with something "happier" to turn the course of the bad vibe.

Bad activity in any particular venue tends to snowball in my experience. If people think it's cool to vandalize, destroy, mosh and fight at a place, more like-minded people will follow (example, the place across the street from Memories in Huntingdon). In turn, if things turn south because of a vibe that's being put off by the entertainment, if the entertainment doesn't do something to change it, the negative vibe will grow.

That's when the authorities will start to put a bullseye on a place, then it's all over — it's now a targeted, nuisance bar.

To sum up, do we have a responsibility to care about this or should we just play on and let the security (and ultimately, the owner, the guy or gal who hires and pays you, the same person who will get and pay the fines) deal with the fruits of our labor? Also, how much responsibility should you accept for the behavior of people who follow you from venue to venue?

Thoughts?

r:>)

[Lisa]

Rob, very well said. I think that its up to the venue to set the environment for their place in general. We have a no tolerance rule. You cause trouble or if trouble somehow seems to follow you, you will be asked to leave and never come back. Usually those individuals will come back about 6 months later and plead their case to my husband who will explain to them why its wrong and what his expectations are in the future. We have very few fights but lately we have been seeing an increase in damage caused to our place. The bands do not cause this though in my eyes. There are just a few bad apples that have not yet been caught. I do like the fact that your band would stop playing and try to verbally get things under control if a fight would break out...that's a great gesture.

Someone here had given me a hard time before about my views on swearing in the bar. We do ask our patrons not to swear. Its just not needed. Funny thing...we've not lost customers over it but seemed to have gained respect. I think its up to the owners to gain respect. Yes, at our comedy shows there is some swearing that comes out of the comedians...and yes, some of the bands will let a bomb drop once in awhile...but when our customers are at the bar we ask them to refrain from it. But only when it gets to the point that they start to get loud and disrespectful.

[DirtySanchez]

. I think that its up to the venue to set the environment for their place in general .

I agree with this. Bands/music can influence behavior for sure.

People who don't "GET" heavier music almost always respond like idiots to it. I've played bars with 50 people and fights broke out every half hour.

I've also played to "OUR Crowd" of a couple hundred people like The show at dirt soldiers 2 weeks ago and not one fight.

Bar owners should book accordingly. You know Lisa does not have heavy music up there and I don't blame her. I know those crazy hilljacks that live up there and they'd be beating each other senseless.

If it were ultimately the band though, they'd get a reputation real quick.
As some bars do.

[Mudbug]

IMO.... If the band "insights a riot".... Then yes, they should take the blame. If you have a few retards in the midst. That can't control themselves, handle the drink and are just lookin' for trouble. Then no... Most are "adults" , , handle yourself accordingly!! Why would the band be at fault for some "hilljacks", as you say, fighting over there "bitch". It's not the music... Priest and Ozzy didn't get in trouble for the suicides.... Why should local bands??? Because people are sto-o-o-pid!!!

[VENTGtr]

do we have a responsibility to care about this or should
we just play on and let the security (and ultimately, the owner, the guy or gal who
hires and pays you, the same person who will get and pay the fines) deal with the
fruits of our labor?

Well, we play enough places that we've never been that I really couldn't tell you
WHAT to expect from patrons at any given place. Besides that, I've long ago given
up EXPECTING any particular type of crowd the first time I'm playing some place.
Just go in and do our thing the best we can and do out job. I DO think we have the
responsibility of at least TRYING to keep control of people there. Really, how many
places have actual security of some type. Most of the time it's the bar staff, and a lot
of those it's the owner who may be a woman in her 60s (Not to insinuate they can't
be old scrappers in their own right).

Think the extent of responsibility of it depends on a lot of factors. For example, last
Friday night we played at Pete & Mel's. It's a small place that we play purely out of
respect for Mel and that he supports bands, plus it's usually a good, cool crowd.

In the last about 5 years I've seen 2 fights there (Before Friday) and they stop
immediately. Mel freaks like a psycho and things go back to normal, at least
as much as they can.

But, last Friday alone there were 2...well...1.5. Someone was there who'd just
gotten out of jail and was trying to prove he was a little Mr. Toughpants. No idea
who he was, had never seen him before and he was probably out looking to get
into a fight and just happened to be where we were.

He started something with someone (Though he may not realize it, the person
with whom he started probably would've pulled his head off had it not stopped
quick). Kenny saw it, and at that point, as Rob stated, you stop playing and make
a point of telling them to knock it off. (The second was during a break and a really
drunk guy hit someone in the head. Guy didn't retaliate, then got hit again, and the
guy still didn't. I was standing right there talking to someone else and the hittee
looked at me said "I'm not hitting him back man). REALLY, the hitter was so drunk
it looked more like a wet sock flailing, but still.

It can just put a pale on the whole night, especially at a small place.

What happens can depend on the place, the kind of people who frequent it normally,
who comes to see a particular band, and even how they intermix. There's no formula
for being sure it doesn't happen. As I'm sure a lot of us have, I've played places that
look like there are goin' to knife fights breaking out any second but turn out to be the
coolest people you've been around. Used to play one place known for having woman
break into fights (Refrained from saying "girl fights") Saw a few good ones there. AND,
let's face it, there ARE those goofs who go out specifically looking to fight. ALSO, there
are PLACES that are known for that stuff happening. Lisa mentioned going to The
Moshannon Park Inn years ago. 'At right there was one (And, Dunk pointed out that
he missed the place). There are many, but since that once no longer around...

How WE react can move it in one direction or another though, certainly. I do think we
have not only at LEAST a degree of responsibility, but a self- interest in doing so. As
pointed out in the other post, that kind of tag can follow you around.

Under NO circumstance is there any reason to trash any place to any degree, even if it's
something as "small" as writing on the walls (Unless it's some of the places it's actually
encouraged, obviously). Places have enough to do at the end of a night without having
to worry about trying to get someone's drunken poetry off their walls. Though I guess that
it's a BAR, the owners do have to understand that the same drunk people who are paying
for their drinks are, well...drunk. And people sometimes do stupid things at that point.

Off subject, HOW do these replies turn out this long?!?! Criminy.

[floodcitybrass]

I think its the responsibility of bar owners to have bouncers/security.
I think its the responsibility of the band to not instigate fighting and not to egg drunks on in to being violent.

[JackANSI]

And what I've noticed is that its not really what we are playing. Out of all the bar bands in the area that do rock/alt/etc, I'd have to say we've got one of more laid back setlists. Sure there is some RATM, but no songs that moshing is 'required' if you think you're a tough guy. This is definitely the tamest setlist I've ever played a bar in PA on.


I've noticed a general rise in the level of tension anywhere I go out. Some of my friends have noticed the same thing. I can't quite put my finger on it yet, but I'm starting to think the economy and prices are really starting to bum people out and frustrate them.

I'm just hoping the gigs don't dry up for us because of a perceived image of a rowdy, loud band. Which in my mind would be a tad funny since that is completely not us... One of those things in life where someone else you didn't even know screws stuff up for you, for no good reason... ie: they thought someone was staring at them..

[nakedtwister]

Very good subject and points Rob. I have to agree with all you said. You are aways going to have a few a-holes in the crowd looking to start trouble. That is really why they are there. The way you guys handled the situation to diffuse the problem seems to be the only course of action you could have taken. I don't forsee us having that problem with our band being that we play all blues but I guess a few people could have an emotional break down. Then I wouldn't know what to do. Great topic.

[Ron]

Very good subject and points Rob. I have to agree with all you said. You are aways going to have a few a-holes in the crowd looking to start trouble. That is really why they are there. The way you guys handled the situation to diffuse the problem seems to be the only course of action you could have taken. I don't forsee us having that problem with our band being that we play all blues but I guess a few people could have an emotional break down. Then I wouldn't know what to do. Great topic.

B, you may want to write down the suicide hotline on pieces of duct tape and stick them on your monitors.

[Plastered Bastards]

We enjoy it when people beat each other senseless,it keeps us from doing it. So,battle on.
LOL

[Jared Michaels]

I don't believe it is the band's fault wether you play heavy or not. We are just there to entertain the crowd. It's not our fault if we have a few jackass's out there that can't drink and play nice with each other.


"Some people just need beat up!"

Rock on!!!

[EyesOfAnguishbassist]

This is not typical by any stretch, but it happens — one bad apple. The last fight occurred when we were playing "Killing" by Rage Against The Machine. We immediately stopped playing dead in the middle of the song, I ridiculed the childish behavior through the PA for a minute, then we broke into "Kum-ba-yah" to further make a spectacle of the people who couldn't control their emotions.

The whole time I was reading this I could only think about one thing. HOW COULD YOU STOP IN THE MIDDLE OF A RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE SONG?!?!? Come on!!!!

[KyleMayket]

a metal show where there isn't at least a small amount of violence (moshing and stuff like that) is boring, metal makes you move and you have to get excited about it, yeah, some guys take it too far and get offended too easily, but for the most part, people around here are cool with it.

[Killjingle]

other than one incident unrelated to the band; we have never had a fight at one of our shows. that day some dude just wanted to show he was a tough guy against a severely weaker opponent.

I have played some of the most brutal metal shows; its just about how we are raised as human beings.

If u were brought up fucked up; u will ultimately be a fuck up unless u want better. Period. The motto: Dont be a modern day fuck up.

[songsmith]

Used to play music that was pretty heavy in it's day, and those crowds were generally pretty mellow. Generally, except at certain places where the homeboys liked to mix it up , like Hill Valley Hotel. I used to keep one eye on the clientele, and when trouble erupted, I'd motion the bouncers to it, and keep going. Advice: Always hook up with the bouncer, make sure he has a soda or whatever, take time to talk with him. I've been in situations where the bouncer saved me and my gear a world of hurt, and one really bad fight where he pulled my future wife out of harm's way. Plus he knows all of the regulars, and can tell you when somebody's just fooling around or is really capable of douchery. He's part of the team.
I used to at least attempt to defuse the brawlers with a joke or something. Lots of times fights get started, and once the fighters know everyone's watching, they get the beer-muscles, and it escalates just from the attention. I tried to focus the attention away so the fighters could cool out, when it worked, it worked well; when it didn't, hey, I tried.
I don't know that setlist means much to people who want to fight, if the band's really poppin' along, and people are digging it, it doesn't matter if it's thrash or disco, most will behave so they can keep having fun. Some others are a-holes, and always will be. Usually, they fight one another, and we laugh at them.-------->JMS

[Bag]

Just to be fair, the "place across the street" isn't really that bad, except when they have DJ's. That's a whole different story.

[MoonManTom]

Songsmith wrote

I used to at least attempt to defuse the brawlers with a joke or something.

I will never forget that News year eve at the William Penn when the Ambulance Crew showed up, and you said to the crowd

"Stand Back and give the Ambulance Crew some room, they're cool, in fact look at this guy, he has a NWA hat on!"

Yeah he was a black man! He looked at you, and I thought, great another fight coming up!

You couldve taken him though Johnny!

Ha ...Good Times and Memories!

[songsmith]

That was one of those times when you sort of forget you're talking into a microphone. I remember regretting saying that... truth is, it wasn't rascist or anything, I had been listening to NWA and Public Enemy around that time. I'm not a gangsta rap fan per se, but I was really into how rappers use rhyme schemes, and how they seldom go for the "cheap rhyme," especially Public Enemy.
I also remember that incident because it was the one where the bouncer hoisted my wife away from her table as it crashed to the floor and broke. The guy broke his hip, or back, or something serious. The fight broke out during our sappiest ballad, My Eyes, and we sang Auld Lang Syne at midnight but we knew the evening was already pretty screwed.---->JMS

[DirtySanchez]

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu ... D=16301763

Just book these dudes for your upper crust clientele.

[DickShackBass]

Just book these dudes for your upper crust clientele.

Saw them here in Altoona quite a few years ago and was so scared that I had to go wait outside for my friends.

[DirtySanchez]

Just book these dudes for your upper crust clientele.

Saw them here in Altoona quite a few years ago and was so scared that I had to go wait outside for my friends.

HAHA! Was that at Becky Sheetz building? I'm getting old.

[DickShackBass]

No, it was at the Jewish Memorial Center (I think thats what its called) of all places. There was fire, broken chairs and tables, pure chaos. Bad Luck actually has a video out and it has this show on it.

[Plastered Bastards]

We (Whoreacts) played that show and then partied with them out at Myla and AJ's after the show.
They are very cool peeps.

[DirtySanchez]

No, it was at the Jewish Memorial Center (I think thats what its called) of all places. There was fire, broken chairs and tables, pure chaos. Bad Luck actually has a video out and it has this show on it.

I remember barbed wire, clubs and shit.

I think that was the first time I saw Whoreacts. There or that old skatepark/warehouse in altoona by the underpass at The UVA.

Good Times.

[DickShackBass]

I remember barbed wire, clubs and shit.

yeah....once I saw the fire being blown, I made my exit and sat in the parking lot in the fetal position sucking my thumb. it was something to see, but it was scary to me