DRUMMERS, I need a little help from you (updated 7/27)

[Hawk]

UPDATED: Scroll to post from 7/27/08
THANK YOU !!!!!!!!!

I need as many drummers as possible to do a little test for me. It will take about ten minutes to test one drum. But the more drums you do (various sizes) the better.

I have become fascinated by tom mounts. [Rack toms/Mounted toms.]

I believe much of the resonance of the tom is choked by the mounting system. I have developed a universal tom mount that can be retro fit to your existing drum to increase resonance.

Resonance to me means a stronger fundamental pitch with a rich sustain that is stronger than the overtones. (Overtones: those high pitch ringing noises). While some overtones contribute to cutting through, you don't want them to dominate the sound of your tom.

Prototypes will be done soon and I've ask a few drummers to try one for me and give me some feedback.

Without giving away the concept yet, here is how you can help me - and maybe yourself. It will take about ten minutes.

Do this test WITHOUT any dampening devices (like tape or moongel) on the heads.

Strike your mounted tom. Listen carefully to the "voice". Listen to the rate of decay or length of sustain. Listen carefully to the main fundamental pitch and how loud it is and how long it sustains and the richness of it. Listen to the overtones and ask yourself how they affect the over-all sound of the tom, for better or worse.

Now, remove the tom from the mount and hold it with one hand by it's rim. Strike it again.

Do you hear a difference ?
Is it better or worse ?
Describe what is different.
Do you like the sound better when the tom was mounted or when you are holding it by the rim in one hand ?

You may have to repeat the test more than once.

The "Rims Mounting System" was one of the systems that was devised to offset this change in "voice". But I think I've built a better mouse trap - so to speak. And I've spent a lot of money with patents and time spent, and now having a company make some prototypes for me.

So what I need to know is; would you buy a universal device that can be added to your existing tom , that would increase resonance like what you hear when you hold the drum by the rim ?

BTW, it seems to work very well with Clint's tuning method ! Thanks Clint !

Thank You So Much !
Bill

[CCdrums]

Bill,
As expected, my drums sounded much more reonant and open with the fundamental note more predominant when I did your test. I would buy anything that made my drums sound better, as long as the apparatus was not obtrusive or an eyesore that detracted from the drum's appearance. I am intrigued and anxious to see what you're working on. Let me know if I can be of any assistance, even if just to be a sounding board.

[Hawk]

Bill,
As expected, my drums sounded much more reonant and open with the fundamental note more predominant when I did your test. I would buy anything that made my drums sound better, as long as the apparatus was not obtrusive or an eyesore that detracted from the drum's appearance. I am intrigued and anxious to see what you're working on. Let me know if I can be of any assistance, even if just to be a sounding board.

That's so interesting. I am working with a company called Westbranch Materials in Barnsboro. (paul from Rockpage hooked me up).

When I went to meet with them I said it needs to be chrome, not black powder coated as they suggested. They looked at me like..."why?".


I tried to explain that it has to look sexy, but I'm not sure they get it. I explained that drummers care SO MUCH about how good their snare looks, even though it's likely no one in the audience will ever see it.

Thanks for taking you time for the test !
Bill

That's why I'll need some feedback on the prototype. Hopefully it will be unobtrusive, yet look good if you do see it.

[Hawk]

My "guestimation" is that with DW, the test will make some difference, but perhaps the least amount of difference. I think they sound so good because of their mounting system (along with their shell design).

I think toms with mounts like Bobby's will show a huge difference with the test. So the device could be a relatively small investment in upgrading with very good results.

But like I am asking. I need YOUR test results feedback to further my experiments before the final product can go to market. Please.

Thanks
Bill

[KyleMayket]

I'm not gonna lie, I didn't really notice any small differences if any, but I have a top o' the line PDP (effectively a DW set for half the price) with rim mounting suspension mounts...but my other kit that has post thru shell mounts, it'll make a HUGE difference.

[slackin@dabass]

any ideas for a retro-fit for my floor toms? i'm not crazy about mounted floor toms (such as crazydrummer's) as i like my toms on the floor, but i still seek the most resonance possible. maybe this could work to your advantage as well? i dunno, just a thought!

[Hawk]

any ideas for a retro-fit for my floor toms? i'm not crazy about mounted floor toms (such as crazydrummer's) as i like my toms on the floor, but i still seek the most resonance possible. maybe this could work to your advantage as well? i dunno, just a thought!

I thought about that but I'm not sure I can adapt my idea to floor toms. I have an idea how to do it, but haven't had the time to build a crude prototype and test it.

The mounted tom idea, I built a crude prototype and it blew some people away. Civil's at Ford Music, the guys in my band and RobTheDrummer have seen and heard it. Now I'm building a universal prototype that will need tested.

[Hawk]

I'm not gonna lie, I didn't really notice any small differences if any, but I have a top o' the line PDP (effectively a DW set for half the price) with rim mounting suspension mounts...but my other kit that has post thru shell mounts, it'll make a HUGE difference.

Thanks. I always thought DW has the best mounting system. Never tried a PDP so I appreciate your incite.

Thanks
Bill

[homerski]

Bill,
As expected, my drums sounded much more reonant and open with the fundamental note more predominant when I did your test. I would buy anything that made my drums sound better, as long as the apparatus was not obtrusive or an eyesore that detracted from the drum's appearance. I am intrigued and anxious to see what you're working on. Let me know if I can be of any assistance, even if just to be a sounding board.

Bill,

A year or so ago, I did this test many times with my TAMA mounted toms, and did just as you directed. There is no doubt that anything but a rim mounting system does detract from the fundamental of the drum. That's when I went to a rack system with aftermarket rim mounts. I am anxiously awaiting the chance to try yours...especially if they are sexy. And to me sexy = chrome.

John Homerski Jr. - Drumz/Vocals - Flood City Brass

[KyleMayket]

I'm not gonna lie, I didn't really notice any small differences if any, but I have a top o' the line PDP (effectively a DW set for half the price) with rim mounting suspension mounts...but my other kit that has post thru shell mounts, it'll make a HUGE difference.

Thanks. I always thought DW has the best mounting system. Never tried a PDP so I appreciate your incite.

Thanks
Bill

No problem, it's my pleasure to help out a fellow musician, especially one who is innovating and progressing our craft, a applaud you on that. I have a great idea for how you could mount a floor tom, i was gonna build one for mine to mount to a rack, but i didn't get the rack, so i converted the idea to how it could sit on the floor still, but get that creamy resonance. If you want i could PM you and give you my idea to see if you could use it, or even with you're ingenuity, improve upon it. Let me know. Keep up the great work, I'm looking forward to seeing some of your inventions on some local guys kits.

[HurricaneBob]

I would love to try it Bill, i used to have rims on my old kit.
The mounts i have now could benefit alot from this, keep me informed.

Thanks

[metalchurch]

Hawk, I am not a drummer and I know very little about what each part is called. I think that I'm following you so far, and to me it sounds like you are onto something real special here. You did have it patened already, correct? That would be a wise move there. I'm not real sure how you would go about taking it to the next level after the testing is complete and it's ready for market. Do you start locally, and move it up to mail order?

The major hurdle in marketing your product, especially something innovative as that, is 'proving' it's worth. You might have to hook some guys up with some samples, or perhaps some kind of lease.
Or maybe a bulk mailorder sale just to get it out there initially, and let the musician's get wind of it.

Nowadays it seems like everything has been invented and tried atleast once. It puts a smile on my face when there is actually something that hasn't been invented.
I'd like to commend you and everyone you've worked with in designing and getting this thing going.

Is this that 'piece of metal' that you wanted someone to machine for you a while back?

Anyway good job Hawk and Co. I wish you the best, and I really hope you get rewarded in every respect.

Got a name for this apparatus yet?
I have an idea, call it the 'Talon' since your name is Hawk.

[Hawk]

Hawk, I am not a drummer and I know very little about what each part is called. I think that I'm following you so far, and to me it sounds like you are onto something real special here. You did have it patened already, correct? That would be a wise move there. I'm not real sure how you would go about taking it to the next level after the testing is complete and it's ready for market. Do you start locally, and move it up to mail order?

The major hurdle in marketing your product, especially something innovative as that, is 'proving' it's worth. You might have to hook some guys up with some samples, or perhaps some kind of lease.
Or maybe a bulk mailorder sale just to get it out there initially, and let the musician's get wind of it.

Nowadays it seems like everything has been invented and tried atleast once. It puts a smile on my face when there is actually something that hasn't been invented.
I'd like to commend you and everyone you've worked with in designing and getting this thing going.

Is this that 'piece of metal' that you wanted someone to machine for you a while back?

Anyway good job Hawk and Co. I wish you the best, and I really hope you get rewarded in every respect.

Got a name for this apparatus yet?
I have an idea, call it the 'Talon' since your name is Hawk.

First, thanks for your imput !

I have several provisional patents. They protect me for one year until I either drop it or file for a full patent ( very expensive). I have a few friends (non-musicians actually) who are interested in investing.

There were two things I have ask for help from machinists. Paul (paul on Rockpage) hooked me up with a company that can produce this tom mount. I'll make about 6 of them and pass them on to drummers to try,and give feedback before going to a final design.

Modern drummer has already offered to do a review on my products. If this tom mount works as well as I think it will, and it's in MD magazine, the word will spread (via the forums - Internet -web sites) quickly.

Of course that's if I can get it priced where I want it.

The idea is incredibly simple. I knew what I wanted to accomplish. In the beginning sketches, it was very complicated. then I worked backwards to make it simple, uncomplicated, user friendly, durable, easy to understand and easy to adjust. Now I have to make it "pretty".

And if nothing ever happens with it, I really don't care. It's the adventure that's fun and I've learned a lot. I'll just make some for my friends.

[Hawk]

I'm interested in testing all brands / types of mounts. Pearl, Tama, Sonor.........................

Thanks again !
Bill

[Killjingle]

Bill,

I will try to help you but my drummer is not a member here. I am looking at his kit and he has the Tama starcast mounting system that attaches to the rim so I cant really see a beneficial difference for him other than aesthetics. In his case that would be the least thing he would be concerned about. Would u like a picture?

[Hawk]

Bill,

I will try to help you but my drummer is not a member here. I am looking at his kit and he has the Tama starcast mounting system that attaches to the rim so I cant really see a beneficial difference for him other than aesthetics. In his case that would be the least thing he would be concerned about. Would u like a picture?

Thanks for your response. I'd be VERY interested in the test as I described it.

Simply put, my simple device will make a mounted tom sound similar to how it sounds when you remove it from it's mount and hold the drum by the rim with one hand and strike it. More open sounding.

So actually, the test is to see if what I have is as good or better than what anyone else has.

So yes, I am interested in comparing it to a Tama mount.

Please PM me if you don't understand and I'll give you my phone number.

I appreciate your help very much !
Bill

[Killjingle]

I will do this sometime tonight for u.

[Hawk]

I will do this sometime tonight for u.

Cool, thanks.

[Killjingle]

the answer is yes.

fact: when I grabbed the tom with one hand on the ring it was slightly louder and more resonant than the way it is attached.

fact: The tom is not tuned the way it should be and it has some bad overtones to it. I am not an expert in tuning a drum so I cant change that.

fact: My fiance also witnessed these findings.

fact: The room I tested this is in is almost a completely flat sounding room because of some serious modications I made to it for soundproofing reasons. There is no hint of echo in this room.

Many ppl say u cannot discern anything less than 3 db so I would say it was at least that much louder. I would say because of the results in this experiment the drummer who already owned the starcast mount would be 50/50 on whether he would upgrade for a truer sound.

fact: If a drummer was choosing between the two mounting systems he would choose your idea if the price was comparable, same, or less... and an option when he bought his target namebrand kit. The black tama rim hangers look like shit IMHO.

Hope that helped.

[Hawk]

the answer is yes.

fact: when I grabbed the tom with one hand on the ring it was slightly louder and more resonant than the way it is attached.

fact: The tom is not tuned the way it should be and it has some bad overtones to it. I am not an expert in tuning a drum so I cant change that.

fact: My fiance also witnessed these findings.

fact: The room I tested this is in is almost a completely flat sounding room because of some serious modications I made to it for soundproofing reasons. There is no hint of echo in this room.

Many ppl say u cannot discern anything less than 3 db so I would say it was at least that much louder. I would say because of the results in this experiment the drummer who already owned the starcast mount would be 50/50 on whether he would upgrade for a truer sound.

fact: If a drummer was choosing between the two mounting systems he would choose your idea if the price was comparable, same, or less... and an option when he bought his target namebrand kit. The black tama rim hangers look like shit IMHO.

Hope that helped.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for your help !

[Killjingle]

u are welcome

[ToonaRockGuy]

Bill,

I didn't even have to do the test, I know that my toms would be more resonant. I tune my toms off the rack most of the time, and then mount them.

To answer the question, (and I'm not trying to be difficult), the answer is that I don't know. I'd need to know if it's something that would only involve a tension-rod mounted piece (like the Guager RIMs or Tama's StarCast), or if it's something that would require a more intensive assembly.

Easy is good.

[CCdrums]

Bill,
Just curious as to whether or not you've seen the Pearl mounting system that mounts the drum via attaching a mount to the lugs on the rim, virtually suspending the tom like you were holding it with your hand. Harold's kit that you'll be jamming on tonight has one of the toms mounted like that. If you haven't seen it, check it out.

[Hawk]

Bill,
Just curious as to whether or not you've seen the Pearl mounting system that mounts the drum via attaching a mount to the lugs on the rim, virtually suspending the tom like you were holding it with your hand. Harold's kit that you'll be jamming on tonight has one of the toms mounted like that. If you haven't seen it, check it out.

Thanks Kevin and everyone who has responded. Right now, I plan to attach it to the shell wherever your current mount is. So you have to take your drum apart.

However, I will attach mine to a Pearl I.S.S mount. The I.S.S. is a perfect compliment for attachment - not to mention easy ! - but the I.S.S rim mount is Patented by Pearl. So I'm working on a way to attach it to a rim - without ANY tension rods being involved - that is not covered by Pearl's I.S.S patent. Either that, or just let people buy their own I.S.S. mount, which sells for $20 to $30.

Here is the I.S.S. rim mount. My simple device would attach to this, then to your stand.
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Search/Defa ... earch.y=11

My device will be a universal fit for any stand or any brand.

Clint, I am familiar with the Pearl mounting system. I was hoping someone with it would do the test. Looks like I'll get a chance to test it myself. I tested some drums at Dale's but I don't remember if I tried the Pearl, or what the results. I do remember our mutual friend Keith didn't like that mounting system. I don't like anything that involves the tension rods. We'll see.

[homerski]

Bill,
Just curious as to whether or not you've seen the Pearl mounting system that mounts the drum via attaching a mount to the lugs on the rim, virtually suspending the tom like you were holding it with your hand. Harold's kit that you'll be jamming on tonight has one of the toms mounted like that. If you haven't seen it, check it out.

Thanks Kevin and everyone who has responded. Right now, I plan to attach it to the shell wherever your current mount is. So you have to take your drum apart.

However, I will attach mine to a Pearl I.S.S mount. The I.S.S. is a perfect compliment for attachment - not to mention easy ! - but the I.S.S rim mount is Patented by Pearl. So I'm working on a way to attach it to a rim - without ANY tension rods being involved - that is not covered by Pearl's I.S.S patent. Either that, or just let people buy their own I.S.S. mount, which sells for $20 to $30.

Here is the I.S.S. rim mount. My simple device would attach to this, then to your stand.
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Search/Defa ... earch.y=11

My device will be a universal fit for any stand or any brand.

Clint, I am familiar with the Pearl mounting system. I was hoping someone with it would do the test. Looks like I'll get a chance to test it myself. I tested some drums at Dale's but I don't remember if I tried the Pearl, or what the results. I do remember our mutual friend Keith didn't like that mounting system. I don't like anything that involves the tension rods. We'll see.

Bill,

These are the Gibraltar mounts that I use on my Tama's:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ ... sku=446161

I like them alot. It actually uses less pressure on the lugs by distributing part of the load to the rim via the rubber grommets.

John H.