Fender Strat question

metalchurch · Post by **metalchurch** » Saturday Jun 21, 2008

I'm working on a Jake E. Lee replica guitar, and I'm trying to make it as close as possible to his.

So here's my other question:

His white "Charvel" was originally a 1974-75 Fender Strat, so did it have the 3 bolt micro tilt neck plate?

What years were they used?
Were they a 'good' system?
Pro's and Con's?

If they weren't very good, then I'll just go with the 4 bolt neck, but I wanted to check into it, and I know there's alot of Fender guys on here that might answer this for me.

Thanks alot guys!!

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Saturday Jun 21, 2008

The 3-bolt system was used from around 1970-1980 or 81. I believe they did away with it when they quit making the Starcaster. After that, they came up with a different 4-bolt microtilt system.

I had a '73 Strat back then and a '76 Starcaster now that have the 3-bolt system. The 3-bolt system makes for a really bad neck joint. Both my guitars had problems with the neck slipping up and down, towards the cutaways. I had to get larger diameter screws for the Starcaster, but if I want to return it to original, I will have to drill out the old neck holes and fill it with dowels to use the original screws.

The 3-bolt works fine for "guitars for lookin' at", but if you want something that will be played heavily, I recommend the 4-bolt.

metalchurch · Post by **metalchurch** » Saturday Jun 21, 2008

Jeff, i was skeptical about the durability, but never having owned one, I was unsure.

Tell me more about the 4 bolt tilt system.

Can I convert a regular 4 bolt to a micro-tilt?

Do companies offer a 4 bolt neck plate with the micro-tilt?

Thanks for the help Jeff

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Saturday Jun 21, 2008

The microtilt is just a "set screw" that you adjust thru the body against the neck to adjust the neck angle. They sell kits:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Micro-Tilt-Neck-Kit ... 0261230613

And plates with the adjustment hole:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Fender-Corona-Ca-US ... 0263417126

You could just as easily make one out of a claw nut, a set screw and a circular plate, like a knockout from an electrical box or something like that.

metalchurch · Post by **metalchurch** » Saturday Jun 21, 2008

Good deal man, that puts me in the right direction for sure.
Thanks

MeYatch · Post by **MeYatch** » Sunday Jun 22, 2008

G&L which is not a super popular manufacturer in this area, by all accounts makes good guitars, still uses the 3 bolt system.

From what I've heard its not that 3 bolt necks were sketchy, its that general CBS era fenders were sketchy.

stratobastard27 · Post by **stratobastard27** » Monday Jun 23, 2008

I would assume sustain would be an issue as well. More contact, more sustain. Stock strats need all the help they can get!

MeYatch · Post by **MeYatch** » Monday Jun 23, 2008

there should be no difference in the amount of contact between a 3 bolt neck, and a 4 bolt neck. Unless you assume that all your sustain is being transferred through those screws.

As far as slipping side to side as lonewolf has described, that could be an issue, but only if your neck joint is really sloppy anyway (poor quality to begin with, not the fault of the 3 bolt neck)

Personally I wouldn't even look at is as a "which is better" scenario, it would be a matter of how authentic you want it to be, Vs how much time you want to spend sourcing parts, and sending back, or modifying parts to insure a quality neck joint.

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Monday Jun 23, 2008

Simple engineering: 4 bolts is 33% better than 3. You can take this concept right down to how many impact G's an F-22 telemetry casing can take.

MeYatch · Post by **MeYatch** » Monday Jun 23, 2008

lonewolf wrote:Simple engineering: 4 bolts is 33% better than 3. You can take this concept right down to how many impact G's an F-22 telemetry casing can take.

thats not the whole story.

Why don't we put 30 bolts on a neck? that would be 10 times "better" right?

The amount of force needed to hold a neck to a guitar is not significant, not in the direction the force of those screws are providing. The string tension would be more than enough to prevent the neck from flying out towards the headstock, and the neck coming into contact with the body prevents it from being pulled towards the bridge.

The screws are essentially there to prevent the neck from see-sawing at the neck joint.

I can't remember what company it was, but I recently read of a company going to a 2 screw neck joint.

metalchurch · Post by **metalchurch** » Monday Jun 23, 2008

I know that the very first Kramers had a 2 bolt neck joint.
They ran parallel with the neck, with one in front of the other.

I'm not sure about the neck screws only being there to keep the neck from moving side to side.
Because if you have ever loosened the screws on a bolt on to shim it or what have you, the strings start pulling the neck from the body, not holding it to the body as it sounds like you are describing Mitch.

The more screws that are in a neck the weaker it becomes, because you are essentially removing wood to make room for screws.

Not real sure on what I want to as far as the neck joint yet, because all of the bodies that I've found are drilled for 4 bolts.
I may just make it a 4 bolt micro-adjust, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a micro-adj.

When researching Jake's guitar, I ran into alot of small quirks and details that I've never messed with before. I'm not a Fender guy at all as I'm sure you all know already by my constant ranting about Jackson's and Charvel's.

I definitely appreciate all of the input and opinions about this matter.

MeYatch · Post by **MeYatch** » Monday Jun 23, 2008

I mean see-sawing front to back as well as side to side.

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Monday Jun 23, 2008

MeYatch wrote:
lonewolf wrote:Simple engineering: 4 bolts is 33% better than 3. You can take this concept right down to how many impact G's an F-22 telemetry casing can take.
thats not the whole story.

Why don't we put 30 bolts on a neck? that would be 10 times "better" right?

The amount of force needed to hold a neck to a guitar is not significant, not in the direction the force of those screws are providing. The string tension would be more than enough to prevent the neck from flying out towards the headstock, and the neck coming into contact with the body prevents it from being pulled towards the bridge.

The screws are essentially there to prevent the neck from see-sawing at the neck joint.

I can't remember what company it was, but I recently read of a company going to a 2 screw neck joint.

Actually, the screws are there to provide a compressive joint between the neck and the body, but you are right, that is not the whole story. A compressive stress analysis will show you that:

If you look at the compressive sress on a single bolt, it decreases the further you go from the screw until the sides of the neck are getting significantly (depends on the modulus of elasticity of the material) less than at the screw. When you go with 2 bolts, the compressive stress is shared between the bolts and has a composite compressive stress that is uniform across the neck, resulting in better cross-vibration and better sustain.

On the 3 bolt, the larger compressive stress in the center would also create non-uniform tensile stresses along the fingerboard. This is probably not that significant, but it might cause cracking in a laminated fingerboard over time, especially if the neck is removed a lot.

A torsional stress analysis will show that the 3rd bolt acts as a fulcrum when the neck has to deal with side to side force. Like a lever, the 3 bolt design actually contributes to wearing out the threads in the wood. This is neutralized by the use of 4 screws.

From an engineering point of view, the 4 bolt neck is far superior to the 3 bolt neck.

Besides saving a quarter in parts & labor, are there any tonal advantages to a 3 bolt neck?

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Monday Jun 23, 2008

MeYatch wrote:
lonewolf wrote:Simple engineering: 4 bolts is 33% better than 3. You can take this concept right down to how many impact G's an F-22 telemetry casing can take.
Why don't we put 30 bolts on a neck? that would be 10 times "better" right?

It would be better, but not significantly. 4 bolts does the job just fine. 3 does it less fine.

MeYatch · Post by **MeYatch** » Monday Jun 23, 2008

lonewolf wrote:Besides saving a quarter in parts & labor, are there any tonal advantages to a 3 bolt neck?

As far as I know, the purpose of the 3 bolt neck was to make adjusting the tilt easier, by only having to loosen one screw in the back.

Why G&L still uses it I'm not sure. Leo used the 4 bolt joint, then 6 bolts on the Musicman, then went to 3 on G&L. I would not be surprised if there's a reason listed at the G&L website.

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Tuesday Jun 24, 2008

Taylor uses a single bolt for their SolidBody and T5.

metalchurch · Post by **metalchurch** » Tuesday Jun 24, 2008

Only one bolt?
I wonder if the neck slides in like a tongue and groove type of joint?
It must have some other help to reinforce it?
Wouldn't ya think?

Anyone come up with a picture of this neck joint could you please post it.
I'm curious as all hell to see what it looks like.

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Tuesday Jun 24, 2008

metalchurch · Post by **metalchurch** » Wednesday Jun 25, 2008

Thanks Jimi, that neck joint is pretty neat looking. Kind of what I was picturing to an extent.
I was thinking that the bolt or screw would be bigger than that.