TRUE AMERICAN HERO !!!!!

[bassist_25]

Clinton should have been reprimanded for purgery.

But it was asinine to impeach him for adultery in the first place.

The same way it's asinine to make a big deal on whether Jack Ryan likes to go to strip clubs or not.

[FatVin]

I saw a thing on the news about this book that has just come out rating all the presidents up to but not including W. They put Clinton right in the middle, Hardly the best POTUS ever but far from the worst, I think that's where he belongs.

having said that there are lies and there are lies and " They've got Weapons of Mass destruction", "Read My lips, NO New Taxes" and "I didn't know anything about about the arms sale" and "What break-in ?" are worse lies than "I did not have sex with that woman". They just are, deal with it.

Is Clinton a liar, of course he is, he was the best liar, that's why we elected him twice.

He lied to answer a question he never should have been asked in the first place.

American hero....nah, I don't think so...if anything Bill Clinton was a victim of an overzealous prosecutor and vendictive bitch with a tape recorder

And can some of you rabid Right-wingers, please expain to me what a blowjob, had to do with a bad real estate deal?

[lonewolf]

What we citizens think about a lie and how the law views a lie are two completely different things.

They've got Weapons of Mass destruction

Not a lie. A statement made from poor and conflicting information. Also, this has not been substantiated yet--its an open issue. This just happens to be an election year and the democrats don't have anything else to campaign on.

Even if proven to be completely false, this statement does not constitute perjury in a court of law and cannot be prosecuted.

Read My lips, NO New Taxes

Not a lie. A campaign promise that would have been kept had the democrats not decided to shut down the government and hold it hostage for the new taxes they so desperately crave. That worked in 1992, but it came back to bite them in the ass big time in 1994.

This statement did not constitute perjury in a court of law and could not be prosecuted.

I didn't know anything about about the arms sale

Nobody actually said that, but according to the executive summary of the independent investigator's report:

As the White House section of this report describes in detail, the investigation found no credible evidence that President Reagan violated any criminal statute. The OIC could not prove that Reagan authorized or was aware of the diversion or that he had knowledge of the extent of North's control of the contra-resupply network.

Even though nobody actually said that, this statement would not constitute perjury in a court of law and could not be prosecuted.

What break-in?

Actually, Nixon didn't know about the break-in, but did try to cover it up. Yep, the coverup is a worse lie, I won't debate you on that. But the outcome was much different. Nixon resigned. If not for his resignation and pardon from Ford, he would have been impeached, convicted, ejected from office and possibly subject to criminal prosecution. Worse people than Nixon have been pardoned:

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pardonchartlst.htm

I did not have sex with that woman.

This is probably one of the most commonly told lies on the planet. I wonder how many millions of times a day it is told. I used to tell it before I reformed . HOWEVER... I wonder how often that lie is told to a Federal Grand Jury while under oath? Any lie, no matter how important or unimportant it seems, told to a Federal Grand Jury while under oath is a criminal offense called PERJURY which carries a maximum 5 year federal prison sentence.

If somebody does something we disagree with, nothing legally can be done about it unless they have broken the law. Only Nixon and Clinton broke the law. Nixon was pardoned and Clinton got away with it.

[Punkinhead]

HAIL CLINTON HAIL CLINTON HAIL CLINTON HAIL CLINTON

MY HERO COME SAVE THIS COUNTRY FROM THE EVIL DUBBYA !!!

I was just trying to show you what some of America's real heroes think of your hero....

He's no hero, he won't die for you or me like those in the Armed Forces....

[byndrsn]

He's no hero, he won't die for you or me like those in the Armed Forces....

Amen brother!!!

[Sinman]

Imgrimm, i dont see the difference in tone, between "HAIL CLINTON" and "HEIL HITLER"
so how will you celebrate Independence Day, feeling sorry for Saddam, and bitch about Bush?
....yes, you are a true american!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BDR]

Hey, there's this new Web site called "Rockpage.net" where you can get with other musicians and talk about music...

Ever hear of it? Y'all ought to check it out.

r:>)

[Jim Price]

What Bad Daze Rob said...

[killyourscene]

i personally don't understand the fuss about micheal moore. it's funny. he's like the kid in the back of the classroom shooting spitballs. he can make whatever kind of film he wants, label it what you will. if you don't like it or disagree, fine. it's not like we are all helpless, mindless drones hanging on his every word. you can take it for what it is and leave it at that. at the end of the day, each and every one of us have our own idea about our own personal reality. it's only entertainment. different strokes, you know.

[byndrsn]

Hey, there's this new Web site called "Rockpage.net" where you can get with other musicians and talk about music...

Ever hear of it? Y'all ought to check it out.

r:>)

awwww, come on guys!! Music has always been about love, religion, politics, personal experiences, etc. What else could music be about??

((Oh yeah - chicks!!!))

[GUITARII]

Hey, there's this new Web site called "Rockpage.net" where you can get with other musicians and talk about music...

Ever hear of it? Y'all ought to check it out.

r:>)

Rob....

Can you send me the link you're using? I keep typing www.rockpage.net in the address bar but I keep coming to this forum!

Thanks!

Dan

[FatVin]

To Lone Wolf,

You're telling me that you'd rather be lied to about the conduct of your government, about it's intentions (Taxes), about it's ethics, (watergate and Iran Contra), and about the National Security (WMD), that whether or not a guy got a blow job.

I would much rather put a guy in office who will tell me the truth about National Security and the other things and lie to me about the blow job, that's just me.

all that crap about the independant prosecutor doesn't mean they didn't lie, it just means they're good at it.

It's government, they're all liars

Look, I supported the war and still do Saddam was and is very much a bad guy and a destablizing influence in a very touchy part of the world, we did the right thing, If they'd have come out and said that it was gonna be a mess for a while it would have been one thing. They should have given it to us striaght, they didn't, they should have had an exit strategy and it's increasingly clear that they don't.


I'm no Yellow dog Democrat (That's a Demo who will vote for a yellow dog if it's on the D ticket)

I saw the Moore flick and a sorrier, more politically motivated, more biased misrepresentation of what actually is happening I've never seen and only a total lunkhead would take it as gospel.

I always thought Moore was a whiney leftist bitch anyway

but that doesn't exonerate W.& the republican party and it doesn't make saints of the Democrats and you still haven't answered my real estate question.

[lonewolf]

You're telling me that you'd rather be lied to about the conduct of your government, about it's intentions (Taxes), about it's ethics, (watergate and Iran Contra), and about the National Security (WMD), that whether or not a guy got a blow job.

Did you get that from the James Carville web site or what?

No Vinny. Read my post. I'm telling you that Bush Jr. & Sr. did not lie. The only lies told there were the democrat party line that says they lied. The lie the democrats told about Bush Sr. and "no new taxes" was one of the best "fool most of the people all of the time" examples in history. My hat's off to them for pulling it off.

As for Reagan, the investigation was satisfied that Reagan did not know the details of the actions of subordinates. If you can show me a verifiable and legal source that says otherwise, I'm all ears, otherwise, I'm satisfied with the findings.

Even if you believe they lied (which I don't), they did not break the law like Nixon and Clinton. Period. Nixon lost his job over lying and all Clinton got was egg on his face.

To answer your prior question about why Clinton was even asked about sex in the Whitehouse: Linda Tripp was blowing the whistle on several different things. Clinton's testimony disputed everything that she said. When an investigator is confronted with conflicting stories, it is his job to find out who's lying and who's telling the truth. The only way to do that is to find evidence that corroborates one of the testimonies. Lewinsky had evidence that corroborated Tripp's story, making her testimony more credible than the President's. From that, he deduced that Clinton was the liar, not Tripp.

No Vinny, thats not bullshit...thats the legal system in action.

[FatVin]

Lone Wolf wrote:

and "no new taxes" was one of the best "fool most of the people all of the time" examples in history. My hat's off to them for pulling it off.

nothing ethically questionable about that.

and No I haven't seen the Carville website. Listen to G. Gordon Liddy much?

But I do believe that there are lies and there are lies.

and there is right and there is Legal and they are not always the same thing

look, I'm not a parent but it seems to me that it would be better to hear, "No Dad, I don't have any home work" than "No Dad, I didn't rob the bank", both are lies, both are not good but c'mon be reasonable, I would rather hear the former.

My point here, is that Clinton wasn't the first president to misrepresent the facts, he won't be the last,

but you hard core, dittohead, rabid right wingers react to the very mention of the man's name with the kind of hiss that people usually reserve to the names of Hitler's henchmen and it's ridiculous.

Is Bill Clinton an American hero? No way is he the villian that the extreme right would make him out to be, No Way.

Those of us moderate liberals have a real problem this election, I won't vote for Dubya and I can't, in good conscience, vote for Kerry, and Nader, well...., is Nader even ON the ballot in PA?

Whatever....

[lonewolf]

Listen to G. Gordon Liddy much?

Didn't even know he was still on the air, but I worked with people like him for 8 years. I would probably still be working with them had I not turned down a supervisor position at Ft. Meade. I lost my political naivety a very long time ago. Its cool to be idealistic, but I prefer to deal with reality. The reality is "there's thangs goin' awn that you don know".

No Dad, I didn't rob the bank

I'm glad you brought that up. Isn't that what the Clinton investigation was all about--Whitewater? Key witnesses wouldn't talk and did time. Not all the evidence was brought forth. There were more than a few bodies turned up that were associated with it. No, nothing was proven legally, but let's apply your "right versus legal" axiom. What's worst?:

5 cubans burglarize DNC headquarters.

A few people trade some arms to secure the release of U.S. Citizens

A campaign promise made impossible by the opposing party.

A statement that a brutal tyrant has WMDs and has used them on hundreds of thousands of people leads to a war and his overthrow.

A scheme to bilk millions of dollars from citizens on a real estate deal thru bank fraud.

[Dave]

Hey, there's this new Web site called "Rockpage.net" where you can get with other musicians and talk about music...
r:>)

Maybe Ron could add a button called "New Topic" so you could start a topic about music.

These discussions are pretty interesting to read. When I get tired of them I just stop reading them.

We could check with Ron, but I doubt these non-music related topics are causing any bandwidth problems.

(DISCLAIMER: I put two smileys in this post so everyone knows that I am just razzing Rob).

[esa]

I'm flippin excited! I was leaving Cresson a short time ago and just saw one helluva police brocade. Thought at first it was an accident.. but then I found it...it was DICK CHANEY's Brocade!!!!!!!!!! How cool is that?!?!

I'm pumped.

[FatVin]

You wanna talk politically nieve, let's review a little shall we...

which is worse? you ask.....

5 cubans burglarize DNC headquarters.

they were burglers sent to the DNC headquarters to plant bugs and copy documents by political opponents A.K.A. members of the WHITE HOUSE STAFF

A few people trade some arms to secure the release of U.S. Citizens

contravening an act of congress (read the Constitution lately?)and negotiating with terrorists

A campaign promise made impossible by the opposing party.

The GOP has for years labeled the Democrats as 'Tax and spend", maybe it's true but the Republican alternative which seems to be "Borrow and Spend" is equally if not more fiscally irresponsible. Hardly evil but certainly dumb, George the elder had to know that a any Democrat worth his salt would make him eat a promise like that, if he didn't deserved to be defeated in '92

A statement that a brutal tyrant has WMDs and has used them on hundreds of thousands of people leads to a war and his overthrow.

This one I have to give you, they did the right thing here, but they did it badly and for the wrong reasons

A scheme to bilk millions of dollars from citizens on a real estate deal thru bank fraud.

the part of this that nobody seems to remember here, especially the far right, is that the Clintons lost money on this deal. How can you acuse them of masterminding fraud, if THEY lost money it doesn't make any sense.

Ken Starr couldn't find any legal wrong doing so kept digging until he turned over the rock where Linda Tripp and magic tape recorder was playing and that boys and girls was the blowjob heard 'round the world.

As if Clinton was the first US president to get a little on the side, I got news for you, the first US president to score a little side action was in fact the First US president.

The Far Right has never forgiven Clinton for Monica Lewinsky and it never will. Especially the conservative Christian movement, funny, I thought Christianity was all about forgiveness. Or does that only apply to Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart? but that's another thread.

As presidents go Bill Clinton was a mediocrity, hardly the best but far from the worst. An American Hero? NO! Anti-Christ? sorry, all you ditto heads but NO!

[lonewolf]

Lone Wolf wrote:

and "no new taxes" was one of the best "fool most of the people all of the time" examples in history. My hat's off to them for pulling it off.

nothing ethically questionable about that.

I am talking about the marching orders given by the DNC to their mouthpieces. They told the same lie over and over and over again using the same cliched soundbites until the majority of the public started believing that lie. I find that ethically questionable. Being a political realist, I also give them political kudos for actually pulling it off.

For those of you who don't know the real story: George Bush Sr. said "no new taxes" during his 1988 campaign for president. A few years later Bush introduced a budget with no new taxes to the democrat controlled congress. Without even looking at it, the house democrats shelved Bush's proposal. The democrats passed their budget with new taxes and Bush wouldn't sign it. This gridlock went on for months until the current budget was about to expire and the government would shut down. Rather than shut down the government and backed into a corner, Bush relented by reluctantly signing the democrats' budget that contained the new taxes. During the presidential campaign of 1992, the democrats lied thru their teeth day in and day out that George Bush raised taxes when it was they themselves that forced us into the new taxes.

By the way Vinny, if you read my posts, you won't find me bashing Clinton. You will find that I present evidence on why he was not a great president because I agree with you...he was an average president at best.

[FatVin]

They told the same lie over and over and over again using the same cliched soundbites until the majority of the public started believing that lie.

Oh Yeah, the republicans have never done that.

Look national politics is a full contact sport. Both sides have done some pretty dispicable things in the name of party loyalty.

But Ford pardoned Nixon, We all remember Reagan fondly, I know I do, and I was as outraged as anybody when the Iraqis tried to assasinate Bush the elder (remember that?)

What I would like to know is what did Bill Clinton do that was so horrible, nothing was ever proven about Whitewater and all he did was quible over a question he never should have been asked in the first place. When is he gonna get a break?

anyway good argument

[lonewolf]

Look national politics is a full contact sport. Both sides have done some pretty dispicable things in the name of party loyalty.

What I would like to know is what did Bill Clinton do that was so horrible

Vinny, I condensed your quote down, because you helped to answer your own question. Keep in mind that I have discussed this at length with other republicans, many of them knowledgable about party operations. I have heard this before, during and after Clinton's crucifiction. I am surprised that you don't hear this explanation in many public forums.

If he really didn't have anything to do with Whitewater, Bill Clinton didn't do anything but be a democrat president at the wrong time. His sketchy past also made him quite vulnerable.

There was a lot of bad blood on the republican side over the democrat treatment of Reagan during the Iran-Contra scandal. Democrat treatment of Bush Sr. (see my last post) just threw gas on the fire. Hell, there were more than a few old republican hardliners that still wanted payback for pushing Watergate to its conclusion!

In 1994, the republicans took the house for the 1st time in 40 years and the full congress in 1996. That was the 1st time they had the legislative power for payback. Don't think for a minute that they weren't going to use it.

As they say, payback is a bitch, and as you say, national politics is a full contact sport. The rest is history. I expect that if the democrats take back the house, there will be some reciprocation.

I am not completely convinced that the Clintons didn't have anything to do with Whitewater. There were too many dead bodies and too many unspoken testimonies. But then again...in 2004, who cares?

[tonefight]

I'm glad you guys talk politics and I wish I could follow but looking at both sides here , the ones who liek to talk about this and the ones that don't maybe its time for a new catagory in the index? ( yes politics )

[Punkinhead]

I'm glad you guys talk politics and I wish I could follow but looking at both sides here , the ones who liek to talk about this and the ones that don't maybe its time for a new catagory in the index? ( yes politics )

AGREED!

I, personally, could give a shit about politics...I have far more important personal concerns than those that I can not control (please no voting bullshit here) but due to occasional boredom, I find myself taking part, and wishing I hadn't....

[lonewolf]

I'm glad you guys talk politics and I wish I could follow but looking at both sides here , the ones who liek to talk about this and the ones that don't maybe its time for a new catagory in the index? ( yes politics )

AGREED!

I, personally, could give a shit about politics...I have far more important personal concerns than those that I can not control (please no voting bullshit here) but due to occasional boredom, I find myself taking part, and wishing I hadn't....

Sounds good OK to me...I'll vote for it if you'll vote for my "add cover charge" legislation.

BTW, LoneWolf will always post cover charge for all shows. Expect to see "NO COVER CHARGE" for the best music deal in the area.

OOOPS....shamless plug