Smoke Free Rock Bar

str8h8 · Post by **str8h8** » Thursday Jul 01, 2004

Ok, after seeing the post of why aren't people going out....I wanted to apply my input with a new thread. Not concentrating on bands and music, for a lack of club business, I am more interested in the health concern platform.

I think (from what I have observed) that their just aren't as many people going out across the board as their used to be. I think that a lot more people in our society are starting to realize how bad for your health it is to be in smoke-filled bars swilling back alcohol and eating nutritionally void bar food. Their has been much more attention paid to getting healthy and fit in the last few years than I can ever remember. Health clubs are one of the top 5 growing industries in America.

I write from this standpoint because I myself have been affected in this way. I could never relate to smokers (athsmatic since 10 months old) and I used to drink and eat bad food all the time and it led to serious health issues. Over the past year, I could count on 1 hand the number of times I have been out to see bands and this is from someone who used to be a rabid fan of the local scene. I just don't like the stuffy head the next day and smelling like I crawled down a chimney. I can avoid the alcohol, I have the self control, and the food just makes me sick anymore.

The slightly more health conscience society we are becoming has been affecting the business of clubs, junk food eateries, etc.

It's always been a dream of mine to go out and see bands in a smoke-free environment. It's always been a dream of mine to own my own establishment. I think I might be onto something.......

DMFJ03 · Post by **DMFJ03** » Thursday Jul 01, 2004

The only problem is 95% of the musicians around smoke so they would probably stay away from your place. I know I would. In the immortal words of Monoxide "Whut you mean there's no smokin' in here, I'm 'bout to blow up." I'm not trying to be a d*ck or anything, but you have to think about the people who would go to bars would also stay away because they couldn't smoke inside. Hate to say it, but your bidness would probably run into the ground.

Post by **Jim Price** » Thursday Jul 01, 2004

Good point, str8h8.

Didn't New York City just ban smoking in all of its bars and restaurants not too long ago? I know it was in the news recently that Ireland barred smoking in all of its pubs. I have heard it said that this will be the wave of the future, and that many states - Pennsylvania included - are drafting up legislation to ban smoking in public eating and drinking establishments.

What will the effect be on the music scene if smoking is oiutlawed in venues? The smoking crowd may grumble and stay away for the short term, but the non-smoking crowd, such as str8h8, might find a friendlier and healthier environment to view live music.

I'm a passive non-smoker. I've dealt with second-hand smoke most of my life (my parents both smoked), so unless it's really concentrated in a small area (smoke-filled small bar venue), it usually doesn't affect me too much. I've been in a few rooms, even recently, where the smoke was bad enough that you could cure a ham in the place. Although I usually don't mind if people smoke, I wouldn't complain if venues went smoke free.

RobTheDrummer · Post by **RobTheDrummer** » Thursday Jul 01, 2004

I have no problem with people that smoke. If people feel the need to suck smoke in thier lungs that's fine. The problem is that I have asthma and it has always been a problem around smoke, especially while playing drums. I like to go out and most of the time I'll have to leave because I can't stand the smoke. It sucks because it's something I have to worry about and can't enjoy myself as much as I would like to. It's no fun playing and worrying about being able to breathe, so I think it would be a great idea to get rid of it. To most people that don't smoke it's a comfort issue, but with me it's a life/death issue. It can be scary and it's not like I can ignore it. I love to play out, but it's as if I have a price to pay for it.

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Thursday Jul 01, 2004

I'm not so sure that the opposite wouldn't apply here. New York City has had a ban on smoking in bars for awhile, and the New York Nightlife Association conducted a study on its effects. Here are some results:

— 34 percent of New York City bars, hotels and nightclubs surveyed have reduced staff since the city and smoking ban took effect, by an average of 16 percent. 74 percent of those establishments identified the smoking ban as the cause of the reduction in staffing.
— 76 percent of bars and nightclubs have experienced a decline in customers since the smoking ban was enacted, by an average of 30 percent. 78 percent of businesses surveyed said that the smoking ban had a negative impact on their businesses.

— Bars and nightclubs that do not serve food reported a 19 percent decrease in alcohol sales since the smoking ban was enacted.

http://www.syracuse.com/news/eis/index. ... 069030.xml

I realize this is a reverse-logical point of view, but these are pretty drastic numbers.

I would expect recent health concerns (and don't forget Atkins) have reduced bar patronage somewhat, but alcoholic beverage sales continue to modestly increase. I couldn't find any numbers on tavern sales, which is probably a better indicator.

The A-number-1, 99 out of 100, broken record reason people give me for not going to see a show in a bar (even 5 miles away!) is fear of DUI. The other 1% complains that its too loud. I haven't heard any health concerns.

rickw · Post by **rickw** » Thursday Jul 01, 2004

Throughout the many years of playing bars I have noticed some differences in the bars themselves. There could be a hundred people smoking in any given bar, yet some places somehow maintained a relatively clear atmosphere, and yet there were some that were so bad you could barely see the crowd for the smoke! Can a bar be retrofitted with air cleaning devices (without bankrupting the owner)?

DMFJ03 · Post by **DMFJ03** » Thursday Jul 01, 2004

That is all that it boils down to. If you are going to open a place, there should be a firm code stating that bar owners should have enough smoke eaters for how big the place is. That would help tremendously. True, some bars do have them - but how well do they work? There should be a smoke eater standard. I think this would solve a lot of the smoke related problems.

facingwest · Post by **facingwest** » Friday Jul 02, 2004

With having a bad lung, I'd love to be able to play smoke-free bars. I've had 3 spontaneous pheumothorax's (my lung collapses when it feels like it) and don't want to have to go for #4 because to cure it, they'll either have to scar my lung or remove part of it.

Too many nights I come home and can hardly breathe from all the smoke. Some places aren't bad, yet others have left me almost literally gagging. One night at a local bar a few years ago, the smoke was so bad I got a sinus infection because of it. Half way through the night, I couldn't stop coughing, and asked the bar owner if we could pack up early (with pay cut, of course). Luckily, a fight almost broke out prior to this and the bar owner made us take a break. He was so pissed off at what happened that he really didn't mind us taking off early.

FatVin · Post by **FatVin** » Friday Jul 02, 2004

It strikes me as funny that the suggestion has been made to ban smoking but since we've identified the DUI laws as a reason that no one's going out anymore . . .

How come no one's suggested an alcohol free place to play?

Think about it, no booze, no DUI problems, no PLCB complaints...it would solve a host of problems....

It's not gonna happen in a million fuckin years but it would solve a few problems

byndrsn · Post by **byndrsn** » Friday Jul 02, 2004

FatVin wrote:It strikes me as funny that the suggestion has been made to ban smoking but since we've identified the DUI laws as a reason that no one's going out anymore . . .

How come no one's suggested an alcohol free place to play?

Think about it, no booze, no DUI problems, no PLCB complaints...it would solve a host of problems....

It's not gonna happen in a million fuckin years but it would solve a few problems

WHAT?!?!? No beer?!?!?!? Hell, most of the time that is what we are paid with - I don't think I could deal with that!!!

FatVin · Post by **FatVin** » Friday Jul 02, 2004

byndrsn wrote:

WHAT?!?!? No beer?!?!?!? Hell, most of the time that is what we are paid with - I don't think I could deal with that!!!

Wouldn't cash be better?...

take it easy, it was just an observation

str8h8 · Post by **str8h8** » Friday Jul 02, 2004

DMFJ03 wrote:The only problem is 95% of the musicians around smoke so they would probably stay away from your place. I know I would.

I doubt you would if the money was right and the crowds were bigger.

Oh, and I was at The Funny Bone in Pittsburgh a few weeks ago, which is now smoke free and that's not keeping the national comedians away. Did they bitch about it, of course, but they know they have to do whatever it takes to put food on the table.

If you can't go a 45 minute or hour set without lighting up, that's pretty pathetic.

byndrsn · Post by **byndrsn** » Friday Jul 02, 2004

FatVin wrote:byndrsn wrote:

WHAT?!?!? No beer?!?!?!? Hell, most of the time that is what we are paid with - I don't think I could deal with that!!!
Wouldn't cash be better?...

take it easy, it was just an observation

yeah, cash would be much better!!! (or would it?)

Post by **Jim Price** » Friday Jul 02, 2004

FatVin wrote:

How come no one's suggested an alcohol free place to play?

Think about it, no booze, no DUI problems, no PLCB complaints...it would solve a host of problems....

They already have come up with that one, Vin. They're called coffeehouses. We've sporadically had one or two in the Altoona area, but they never seem to stay open long. Ground Floor Coffeehouse actually pulled a few decent crowds, but it's open one week and closed the next.

Last weekend at Millennium, I was speaking with former Hybrid Ice keyboard man Robert Scott Richardson (now selling pianos and keyboards at Scott Wray Music and assisting at Scott Wray Recording Studio) - his suggestion: Ban all SOBER drivers from being on the roads between 2 and 3 AM...

facingwest · Post by **facingwest** » Friday Jul 02, 2004

Jim Price wrote:Last weekend at Millennium, I was speaking with former Hybrid Ice keyboard man Robert Scott Richardson (now selling pianos and keyboards at Scott Wray Music and assisting at Scott Wray Recording Studio) - his suggestion: Ban all SOBER drivers from being on the roads between 2 and 3 AM...

Most of the places we play later, we either get out of the bar before the drunks leave or wait in the bar for them to clear. One night coming home from Seven Springs, I was almost hit by a pickup. I don't know whether they were drunk or not, but it sure left my heart in my throat a good part of the way home.

moxham123 · Post by **moxham123** » Tuesday Mar 01, 2005

Smoke free establishments are the wave of the future in Pennsylvania, which is following examples in New York City, Toronto, the entire state of Cailfornia and many other places.

I was at Jeff Healey's nightclub in Toronto and got to jam in a smoke free environment. It was great. The place was packed with people (on a Tuesday night no less) and quite a few were musicians. They are used to this up there and it works.

Post by **Jim Price** » Tuesday Mar 01, 2005

They just had a report on TV 10's noon news report today that State College is looking into making bars and restaurants smoke free. It's in its early stages, but it does seem to be the wave of the future...

byndrsn · Post by **byndrsn** » Tuesday Mar 01, 2005

I've read articles and stats that say that bars and nightclubs in NYC and California have had a huge decrease in business since the bans were inacted - I've also read the exact opposite stats in other articles that say the businesses are doing better than ever. So I don't know what to believe.

What I don't like is more of our freedoms being stripped away. If Big John wants to change Peter C's into a non-smoking establishment - then he should have the right to do that. But, at the same time, if non-smoking bars are the rage and Big John wants to continue to allow his patrons to smoke, then he should have the right to do that as well. And, we as consumers can decide if we want to go to his place or someplace else.

That is my opinion. I personally can't stand being around someone who bathed in aftershave or perfume, but I would never consider proposing another law that takes away someone elses rights. I guess that is not quite the same thing - but it could be next, ya never know. First the smokers, then perfume, then NO Farting signs everywhere!!!!!

Urbs

facingwest · Post by **facingwest** » Tuesday Mar 01, 2005

One of the biggest reasons I like playing here is because Kevin's is an open bar with high ceilings. I have a bad lung and really shouldn't be breathing in all that smoke. I hope PA bars become smoke free or section an area off with decent vents for getting rid of it.

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Tuesday Mar 01, 2005

byndrsn wrote:I've read articles and stats that say that bars and nightclubs in NYC and California have had a huge decrease in business since the bans were inacted - I've also read the exact opposite stats in other articles that say the businesses are doing better than ever. So I don't know what to believe.

What I don't like is more of our freedoms being stripped away. If Big John wants to change Peter C's into a non-smoking establishment - then he should have the right to do that. But, at the same time, if non-smoking bars are the rage and Big John wants to continue to allow his patrons to smoke, then he should have the right to do that as well. And, we as consumers can decide if we want to go to his place or someplace else.

That is my opinion. I personally can't stand being around someone who bathed in aftershave or perfume, but I would never consider proposing another law that takes away someone elses rights. I guess that is not quite the same thing - but it could be next, ya never know. First the smokers, then perfume, then NO Farting signs everywhere!!!!!

Urbs

You're right Urbs. This is ultimately an issue over the cornerstone of American liberty....private property rights. If the people roll over and accept continual government bans on how they want to use their property, then we may as well just turn all our property over to the government and get it over with. This wreaks of trading freedom for creature comfort and security.

In the days before society expected the government to legislate every friggin' issue from termite flatuation to mandatory seatbelt checkpoints, people had this thing called freewill. This allowed them to go to places that agreed with them. If they and others didn't have a place that agreed with them, they could pull up their bootstraps and go build a place that did. If it was truly in demand, they would make money. If it was truly NOT in demand, it would go bust. It seems like everything is on the table for legislation. What the hell has happened to our country?

Doesn't the 10th amendment mean anything anymore?

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Tuesday Mar 01, 2005

byndrsn wrote: What I don't like is more of our freedoms being stripped away. If Big John wants to change Peter C's into a non-smoking establishment - then he should have the right to do that. But, at the same time, if non-smoking bars are the rage and Big John wants to continue to allow his patrons to smoke, then he should have the right to do that as well. And, we as consumers can decide if we want to go to his place or someplace else.

Urbs

I agree 100%. The club industry is a monopolistic market that is driven by differentiated products. If a club owner decides to take the risk and open a smoke-free business, then he or she should be able to do that. If it's a hit, then great; if it tanks, then chock that up to a business idea that didn't work. It's a lot better than passing legislation onto all unwilling clubs and then causing a decrease in demand all around because people don't want to go to a smoke-free establishment.

I don't own a club, but I know that it's a rough business to be in. Let's not make things harder by passing some laws that are unfriendly to business owners.

DMFJ03 · Post by **DMFJ03** » Tuesday Mar 01, 2005

str8h8 wrote:
DMFJ03 wrote:The only problem is 95% of the musicians around smoke so they would probably stay away from your place. I know I would.
I doubt you would if the money was right and the crowds were bigger.

I would be more content to play rock cover songs, drink free beer, smoke until my lungs exploded, and have a few laughs all night rather than not being able to smoke and play to 500 people with a $6.00 cover charge.

onetooloud · Post by **onetooloud** » Tuesday Mar 01, 2005

First off I don't give a damn if you smoke or not its you choice all I ask is be a bit considerate of others. To many people in this country could care less about anyone but themselves.

I've had smokers using my gear at shows and cover it with ashes, Oh I'm sorry. Where did ya think the ashes where going. Granted its in the minority. In their defense I've also seen the same thing happen with booze. Does that look like a sink or table. Neither is right.

As far as Goverment telling you not to do this and you can't do that. Thats hogwash, but alot of Americans will not take responsibility for their own actions. As soon as they screw up , call and attorney and file a lawsuit. Hit a telephone pole while driving drunk sue the phone company for placing the pole there. How dare they.

JeffLeeper · Post by **JeffLeeper** » Tuesday Mar 01, 2005

...and I don't care if you do. It's none of my business , and if a bar-owner wants to allow it , it's noone else's business.

Seriously , I think that the government should govern and the bar-owners should run bars. I don't smoke , and if I don't want to smell it , I should go somewhere else. Does it bother me when I sing ? ...Sure , but that's part of the game and I have no right to change the rules to fit my tastes.

Well , that's an old rocker's opinion.

RamRod 1 · Post by **RamRod 1** » Tuesday Mar 01, 2005

Yeah, Jeff Leaper sure knows about smoke!
( Sorry Jeff)

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