why??

[leestuff]

Ok now I know I have not posted much but, I go out all the time and see many different types of band's. But, why is the live music scene dead?? The only time I ever see a 100+ croud is when a stupid dj is playing that rap. Or when you have any where from 3-12 bands playing the same night. Is this area really going that way. (for the few that know me you know what I am talking about) When you have bands that produce a good time, drink specials, and have been in the local music scene for a long time. On any given night you can see metal, punk, pop, kick ass originals, and even re-makes of new and old popular songs. That is why I would never pay a cover to go and see a dj!! So, I am calling all the people to bring back the music scene and open the eye's of bar owner's (even though some have taken you for money and treated you very badly) Let the people come back to the LIVE MUSIC where anything can happen and it does. What are you thought's on how to do this???

[Imgrimm01]

I do not know you BUT ... I could not agree with you more it is sad to see what is becoming of our scene , this has long been a sore spot with me the thing is I don't have a solution most of Joe public are sheep and they only wanna see and hear what MTV and the radio tell them is cool. It's sad BUT true

[Banned]

That's Jesus W. Bush in your avatar? Damn. I thought it was WWE star Chris Jericho all this time . . .

[Jim Price]

I still strongly think it boils down to the music scene reaching out to the masses and educating them. Bands and musicians need to keep getting the word out about who they are and what they do. Constantly! That means flyers and schedules on tables, visiting venues before a gig to press the flesh and tell people about your upcoming show, burning off sampler CD's of your tunes to hand out to people, maintaining email lists to let your existing fan base know when you are playing, organizing street teams to help get the word out about shows and more. We need to be constantly working on selling why people should choose this area's live music scene over deejays, karaoke, mechanical bulls, home video games, computers, or other alternatives.

I just returned from the Millennium Music Conference in Harrisburg this past weekend (full recap in JP's Corner soon), and I saw all these practices in action. Unoccupied countertops at the Crowne Plaza Hotel were covered in flyers of groups and musicians advertising their showcases, and even a few non-Millennium flyers showed up as well (clever flyer by Elysion Fields, "We Hate It All" was a definite attention-getter!). A few bands were also handing out free samplers, even setting them out with their flyers and handbills so passers-by could pick up the free CD's. Bands and musicians were pressing the flesh, networking, meeting people, and constantly trying to attract people to their respective showcases.

Did it work? At least four of the groups I saw at Millennium (Crash Delicate, Lucid Fly, Screamapillar and the Dammitheads) were largely a result of band members chatting with me, passing out CD's or flyers, and generating my interest in what they had to offer. But even with nearly 300 bands and musicians playing in Harrisburg, I still saw a few empty rooms during Millennium. It could have been too many shows and the crowd being spread out, it could have been the attraction of Harrisburg's 2nd Street (a number of clubs and cafes running entertainment along 2nd Street, similar to Pittsburgh's Strip District), it could have been Aerosmith playing in Hershey on Saturday night, it could have simply been summer and lots of outdoor activities competing with live music for people.

In this area, I see a few bands who have learned the importance of marketing and selling their band and upcoming shows to the public. But still too many bands and performers are simply content to book the show, and then just show up that night and expect the crowd to magically be there. If you want new people to come out and see you, you have to let them know you exist, and give them a viable reason why they should choose you over the other options! And if the scene as a whole wants to attract more people, it needs to generate interest, excitement and enthusiasm - if we can't generate excitement about this scene, how can we get new people excited about it? We need to keep selling the scene to the public, and convincing them that the live music scene is a viable choice over the other options.

This time of year is traditionally slower for the indoor club scene, so bands and performers need to be even more diligent about promoting their shows, because there's more activity to compete with!

I don't think there is an overnight solution here, but over time, if the music scene can start and continue to generate enthusiasm - by putting a good product on area stages, marketing it and even coming up with special shows and promotions that can draw more people regularly, more people might start coming out to live shows on a regular basis.

[dayzichick]

First of all JP, I totally agree with you about the marketing aspect, however, I do have a question. Where do you suggest we market our bands? It's one thing to put up flyers in the club you are going to play but where else can you put them? Just wondering where everyone normally promotes themselves besides the newspaper, your shows (for the next show) or the club you are playing in? When you promote yourself at the clubs you already play in chances are the patrons know you already. Where can you promote yourself to bring in new people? I'm asking because I think if people don't go out, they don't go out, and no matter how much advertising you do, if they don't go to clubs, putting a flyer on their car isn't going to get them there. Nowadays, people need more than a band to make them go out. Around here, I would say people go where people are. The clubs go in cycles. For months Shooters will be the place to go, then all of the sudden everyone decides to go to The Grill, and then Big Dogz, etc. I've witnessed recently in Johnstown that people will go where the drink specials are. Again, people go where people are in this town. And if you are new to the club scene, they will not come see you, at least in Johnstown. It takes a long time for an unknown band to succeed here. It's like people want what is familiar to them and that is it, they don't want to give a new band a shot. I would guess if Ribbon Grass came to play in Altoona somewhere, the same thing would happen to us in that market as if an Altoona band came here to play. Secondly, I have my own theory about lack of crowds. I'm not sure how much this plays into it, but I know for myself here in Johnstown (again not sure about the Altoona market) we have the situation of everyone leaving this town to move to places where they can find a job. When I turned 21 over 10 years ago, I could go to any club in town and they would all be packed. In fact, I know we would go to 4 clubs in one night and pay cover at least at three of them and didn't give it a second thought and they would all be packed. Now, since the popluation has dramatically declined over the years, it seems that the crowds either choose to go to one place on one night and that place is full, or the crowds disperse and then no one has a good crowd because people are scattered everywhere. So in a nutshell I think part of the problem is the so called Brain Drain. We lose the people who go out to the clubs as soon as they graduate from college and leave the area. It could be just a matter of there arent' enough people left in town to support every club every night. What works the best around here is word of mouth and having friends who go out. The younger bands have more friends in the area. I can honestly say that with all of us being in our thirties, we rely totally on strangers showing up at our gigs. Between the five of us, we probably have about 20 friends who still live here. Everyone else has left. Population decline coupled with stricter DUI laws are part of the problem.

[tornandfrayed]

While I agree with the previous comments I ahve to say that I think that there is a lack of originality on the scene right now. While I enjoy a good version of "Sweet Home Alabama" as much as the next guy, it does not motivate me to go to a club.

I think that when the band comes along and does something unique and excites people then the word will travel.

You have to remember that when you are playing to a club that is sparsely populated, you are playing to mostly people who are there to drink. They want to get a buzz on and as long as you aren't offensive they don't care.

I don't mean to slam anyone but the band scene here just isn't that exciting. There is not much difference from one band to the other. The Grimm being one of the exceptions. I am sure there are more but I haven't seen them.

Again I am not busting on anyone..

[Staceman]

I have to agree with T&F, that there needs to be more originality. I know that many veteran musicians will jump in and claim that you can't stray too far from "the formula" that seems to have worked so well over the years. But if it's such a cut-in-stone formula, then why does this thread exist?

I believe that to liven things up again, a change needs to be made over a period of time, and chances have to be taken. Bands need to start adding more of their own stuff to their sets. In the beginning of this, yes, you will see less dancing, and it may appear that things are dying even more. Over time, as people with more diverse tastes and open minds start getting a taste of what's going on, word of mouth will get around, and slowly, things will liven up again, and the local music scene will soar to new heights.

The downside to this, is that many club owners probably won't have the patience to tolerate the transition period, when the people who actually enjoy hearing the same shit week after week, band after band, stop dancing. But, with a little patience, I think it would work out eventually, and the local scene would be better than it's ever been.

Just my 2 cents.

[Jim Price]

Terri brings up some good questions.

Where do you suggest we market our bands?

Where can you promote yourself to bring in new people?

There are a number of ways to get the word out, depending on your situation and who you want to try to attract to a show. As far as flyers and schedules, you might try college campus bulletin boards (UPJ, IUP, St. Francis, Penn State Altoona, depending on where your show is happening – of course, some schools are out for the summer right now), CD/video stores, select eating places that people might frequent (particularly if you already patronize a certain business and they’ll let you post), and other businesses and situations where you can reach a large number of people. Since it is summer season and there are outdoor festivals, an idea might be to hand out flyers to people at a festival, particularly audience members if there is music at that festival (the flyer might read, “If you’re looking for something to do tonight after the festival, come to [venue] and party with us!”)

Even as far as just the venues you already play, put out schedules on tables listing all your upcoming shows. If people really dig your band, they might be willing to come see you at another venue besides the one you’re playing that night. Another idea is, on a night when you are not playing, visit a venue where one of your next shows is happening and give flyers/schedules out, and network with possible new fans about coming to your show.

Although it takes time to maintain, start an email list. Have fans sign up at shows, and send emails out to remind them of upcoming shows or special events you’re involved in.

(One panel I sat in on at Millennium offered a number of marketing/promotion ideas, I’ll list a few more suggestions when I post the full report soon.)

And if you are new to the club scene, they will not come see you, at least in Johnstown. It takes a long time for an unknown band to succeed here. It's like people want what is familiar to them and that is it, they don't want to give a new band a shot. I would guess if Ribbon Grass came to play in Altoona somewhere, the same thing would happen to us in that market as if an Altoona band came here to play.

I think two mistakes a lot of bands make when tackling a new town for the first time is (a) not doing the footwork and homework beforehand and just showing up expecting a crowd on the first visit, and (b) giving up too easily when the first gig doesn’t draw anybody. As far as before the gig, approaches you might try are to send a press kit to the local newspaper several weeks in advance of your appearance (be sure to include a good quality band photo, newspapers will frequently use photos with weekend nightlife listings, and that photo alone can attract people to a show); radio ads (try to target stations that play music similar to what you do); and if you have an off night, roadtrip to the venue, pass out flyers and meet people.

And don’t give up if your first night in a new town is a bust! I’ve seen a number of instances over the years of bands who eventually built their following in the Altoona area even though the first gig didn’t go well. Green Eggs and Clove (R.I.P.) both come to mind. Green Eggs (& Spam)’s first Altoona show in the 90’s drew about 50 people tops, but within a year they became (and still are) a top draw in this town. And Clove saw about 20 people on their first Altoona visit, and up-and-down crowds for their next 6 visits, but their persistence paid off, and they became a top draw in this town clear up to their demise two years ago (and they did a lot of originals, one of few bands to do so at that time). (And for you old timers, Hybrid Ice played to crickets at the Engine Room the first 4 or 5 times they were there in the late 80’s – by the 6th or 7th time, they set an attendance record there!)

Although I don’t intend this to be a shameless plug, ads in Pennsylvania Musician work. Part of the reason Green Eggs and Clove became the large regional successes they did was constantly advertising in the magazine. Those ads appearing month after month build name recognition and buzz, so when those bands arrive in a new market where the magazine is distributed, people are already familiar with the names and curious to see what the bands are about. Pennsylvania Musician is another way to get the word out about who you are and what you do.

I think part of the problem is the so called Brain Drain. We lose the people who go out to the clubs as soon as they graduate from college and leave the area. It could be just a matter of there arent' enough people left in town to support every club every night.

Sadly, I have to agree that this is likely a factor, and one that we can’t control. Both Johnstown and Altoona have lost population over the years due to the job and economic situations, and we can only hope our local community leaders can figure out ways to turn that trend around. Until then, all the local music scene can do is work with what we have. That is why it is more important now than ever to put the best product onstage that you can, and maximize the chances of drawing more of that dwindling percentage of population to your shows.

Sorry for the longevity of this post, but I hope a few of the suggestions help. I want to see this area’s scene thrive as much as anybody, and I long for the days when every room had a crowd on a Friday night. Times have changed, and it does take more effort and more creative ideas to draw people out to support live music. Best of luck to all the bands and performers who are out there and trying!

[wake up drumming]

J.P.,

Has anyone told you lately......You're the man! We should all be thankful that we have someone as dedicated in helping and promoting our scene as J.P. I can't even imagine the number of bands you've helped (without even knowing it) over the years. Just thought I'd shoot ya a little appreciation buddy, rock on!

[oobie]

Quote:
Where do you suggest we market our bands?

i'll tell you a good marketing idea i've seen in pittsburgh, i don't know if it is legal or not, but posting flyers on utility(telephone) poles and such just like yard sales do. i know every time i go to pittsbugh to do something i always look a the utility poles to see where bands are playing at. i'm sure it is legal as long as you pick them up and don't litter. granted most of these flyers are for underground clubs but it works hell i've seen some bands by looking at flyers hanging on poles! just a thought


and JP, jims right you the man!!

[DMFJ03]

Getting a following isn't easy, trust us, we know. ESY has worked very, very hard for what we have obtained and we are grateful for everyone who shows us support. Just keep pushing - it has to get worse before it can get better.

[graphicrocks]

You are absolutely right....J.P. is the man.

I think alot of the problem with bands in this area is the "diversity" factor. I would love to see every original band pack the clubs everynight...but without playing songs the masses wanna hear...this won't happen. Lets think about why people go see DJs......people may claim cause it's cheaper. This is not true most of the time....you can see a great band for as little as 3 dollars. The biggest reason is "diversity". You can request a song with a DJ and 9 times out of 10 he'll have it and play it. Hence, people hearing what THEY want to hear.....not what the DJ wants to play. Too many original bands have a problem with being labeled a "party band"...but the sad fact is...is that if no one hears your original music...no one will buy it......so you bring the people by playing what THEY want to hear. Get um dancing!!! That's how you bring um and keep um. Then throw them an original. And people as a hole would much reather see a band performing and adaping there style to tried and true covers and new modern rock.

People wanna have fun.....if the atmosphere and the music isn't fun.....they won't have fun. Plain and simple.....just try and have a little more fun....you be in a better mood....you'll make money and the bar owners will make money...everyone wins!!!

[tornandfrayed]

Now that I am thinking about it I guess it comes down to what your long term goals are. I am not in music to make money. I am in music because I love it. I would play for no one or I would play for 1000 people for the same amount of money.

I wonder if Rush would have made it big as a cover band? Or for that matter Godsmack, Tool, AIC, Peral Jam or anyone? I don't know of any really high draw touring bands that focus on covers.

[byndrsn]

I think alot of the problem with bands in this area is the "diversity" factor. I would love to see every original band pack the clubs everynight...but without playing songs the masses wanna hear...this won't happen. Lets think about why people go see DJs......people may claim cause it's cheaper. This is not true most of the time....you can see a great band for as little as 3 dollars. The biggest reason is "diversity". You can request a song with a DJ and 9 times out of 10 he'll have it and play it. Hence, people hearing what THEY want to hear.....not what the DJ wants to play.
.....so you bring the people by playing what THEY want to hear.

I hate to even post this, but I will be honest and do so. I agree with graphicrocks completely.

I don't get out to hear bands as much as I would like to but if and when I go, I don't want to hear a band play only originals that I have never heard before. Sorry, but I don't. I can appreciate the talent, enjoy the creativity, but the bottom line is that I will get bored with it very quickly.

I also don't like to go hear a band that plays the same genre all evening. I love most styles of music (except hip hop), but I can only take so many 80's songs in a row, so many blues songs in a row, so many country songs in a row, etc. I like to hear a band that mixes it up with different genres and originals.

There are a couple songs that Beyond Reason is talking about learning. Honestly, one of them is a song that makes my skin crawl - BUT - if the crowd gets into it, I will be more than happy to play it every set - if that is what the crowd wants. And, I will probably be able to get into it feeding off of the crowd.

On the flip side of the coin - if we are playing one of my all time favorite songs and all we get from the room is blank stares - it is very hard to get into the music. Does anyone else feel like this?

just my 2 cents
Urbs

[lonewolf]

Joe public are sheep

The technical term for that is "SHEEPLE"

We should all be thankful that we have someone as dedicated in helping and promoting our scene as J.P.

Nobody has done more for local music in central PA than J.P.

I don't mean to slam anyone but the band scene here just isn't that exciting. There is not much difference from one band to the other.

Speaking per capita, there are a lot more bands out there today than there were 10 years ago. There were a lot more bands out there 10 years ago than 25 years ago. There are some bands out there today that probably wouldn't make the cut 25 years ago.

Back then, instead of 50 small venues consisting of mostly refurbished houses, it was more like 20 larger venues that were actually built for entertainment. They earned the name "clubs" and the owners treated the bands pretty well. I was playing full time back then, and I don't remember ever playing "for the door", except for a few parties. All the bands had their own P.A. equipment. Anybody who didn't have an adequate P.A. wasn't going to work.

Don't forget the DJ's. I wouldn't even guess how much business these wanna-be DJ's have taken from us now that they can run out and buy cheap equipment and steal mp3s.

Don't forget Karaoke. Everyone is now a rock star. Why should they come out to see us when they are obviously better and legends in their own mind?

So now you have MORE bands and MORE DJs and MORE ex-audience wanna-bes playing in MORE venues while the area's population has stayed roughly the same. On any given night you get two or three full venues and a lot of corner bars generating a lot of dbs for a lot of empty chairs.

[bassist_25]

All of these are great ideas, but I find one method, that works great to build a fanbase, is just good 'ole networking.

If your band does a good job, I can almost guarantee that when you finish a set, there's going to be someone standing by the stage, ready to shake your hand, and tell you that they dig what you are doing. People like that intrapersonal connection. They don't want band members who are aloof. Sure, you'll run into a few obnoxious drunks, such as the ones we spoke of in the other thread, but you'll also meet people who really love what you do. Tell these people where you'll be next, give them you website info, hand them a card, ect. Next time, when you go on break, go grab a beer, and start talking to people. I'm a pretty introverted person, I still love talking with the fans.

[lonewolf]

All of these are great ideas, but I find one method, that works great to build a fanbase, is just good 'ole networking.

The biggest obstacle I have had with networking is roadblockphobia.

Most of my friends and acquaintances hang out in Hollidaysburg. More than enough people to fill any of the venues I play at. I give them cards, schedules, you name it, but they will not leave Hollidaysburg because of the possibility of DUI. It has become sort of a compromise lifestyle for them. I don't think I've seen more than a few of them outside of their respective bars in this millenium. The gestapo has intimidated them to the point of becoming sheeple.

Unfortunately, one of those few that did venture out of Hollidaysburg was murdered last Sunday. Tina Miller was a friend of about 5 years. She was a very nice, intelligent, friendly, beautiful young woman. I remember her nodding goodnight as everybody piled out of the Piperoom at 2:00am last Sunday morning. That was the last time I saw her. I can't imagine what kind of piece of shit would do this to her, but I hope they get him soon.

[ZappasXWife]

So sorry about your friend lonewolf...
One thing that I have heard that 2 different bar-owners supposedly remarked as to the reason they did not want a (great) band to return who did not draw a crowd: my regulars don't like the band. Now, that is the most asinine reason I have ever heard of. You know that those same regulars will be sitting like a bump on a log on their barstool night after night no matter who the band is. In my opinion, the "regulars" should not be deciding the choice of bands in a venue. That really irritated me for some reason...

[leestuff]

I bow to Mr. Jim Price In my life time I hope to acheive as much as you do with the local music scene. Now, as for going to a venue a few weeks before you play and schmoozing with people is good and bad, Good because you can get new fans to come out and see you. Bad, becasue If there is ANYBODY else playing when you are doing that they take personal offense in you doing that and go as far as trashing you while they are on stage, on the web, and sicking friends on your site. And the people see this and want something to happen between the 2 bands.



The police has alot to do with it also. Take Legand's in stowstown. That is a great place to play in. A HUGE room lots of freindly people, but people from johnstown and even somerset will not come out becasue of them.

Also, my main dissagreement is the price of everything. Now $5 cover is not bad but to pay $2.50+ for a bottle of beer is what is one of the many thing that are keeping the people. Yes JP most of the people are going to drink specials, but bar owners are some times so cheap that they will on do a special one time a weekend. So, one band gets a decent croud and the other gets next to nothing.

One more thing everybody is missing is Guys go where there are women. Most women will only go to clubs with dj's where they can hear rap crap, and where they have their type of drink special's (now there are a few women that drink beer but we all know not many). So, instead of having a Jager special or penny draft's how about talking the owner to have a Capatin special any and everything with Capatin $2.

But, with the generation now that is what will happen, with the upcomming generation's could be the biggest ever. Only time will tell!!!

[RobTheDrummer]

Ok, so we think we know what a lot of problems are with the scene, what are some solutions. I mean, we can argue about what the major problems are for a year and get nothing accomplished. It's time to think of what to do about it and then get moving on it. There has to be something we can do as musicians. If you could somehow prove to a club owner why you think business isn't good on the weekends, maybe they would be willing to do something different. (I doubt it though)

[DMFJ03]

More radio ads would help. I know they are out there, but they should be aired more than what they are.

[ToonaRockGuy]

The biggest obstacle I have had with networking is roadblockphobia.

Most of my friends and acquaintances hang out in Hollidaysburg. More than enough people to fill any of the venues I play at. I give them cards, schedules, you name it, but they will not leave Hollidaysburg because of the possibility of DUI. It has become sort of a compromise lifestyle for them. I don't think I've seen more than a few of them outside of their respective bars in this millenium. The gestapo has intimidated them to the point of becoming sheeple.

Jeff, I like you, and I understand your frustration in this whole thing, and I've kept my quiet until now.

For the people who are blaming DUI laws and police checkpoints for potential fans not going out and seeing bands, I present this side:

http://www.angelfire.com/pa4/4ronnie

Go ahead, take a look. It's a site I did for my wife, in memory of her brother. I never got to meet him, cause a drunk driver killed him. You can also see his picture coming down the Buckhorn into Altoona. One life lost is one too many.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no saint. I'm just as guilty as anyone else of drinking and driving in the past, but I try to be more careful now. People just don't want to take the time to designate a driver, or take a cab. And as artists, we're in a "catch-22", in that part of our job is to make the bar money by encouraging people to drink. But at the same time, we also urge people to be careful.

But believe me, the DUI laws are there for a reason. And the "gestapo" is just doing their jobs, and that's saving lives. My in-laws run Blair County MADD, since their son was killed, this is how they can best help. And I support them 100%.

Just my .02.

[GetInWithIn]

Now that I am thinking about it I guess it comes down to what your long term goals are. I am not in music to make money. I am in music because I love it. I would play for no one or I would play for 1000 people for the same amount of money.

I wonder if Rush would have made it big as a cover band? Or for that matter Godsmack, Tool, AIC, Peral Jam or anyone? I don't know of any really high draw touring bands that focus on covers.

Ok...there a couple things to think about....most, if not all of those bands...for example...came from bigger areas where there are more people and they could get away with being all original...but do you really think they didn't do any covers?? Pearl Jam had a top ten hit with "Last Kiss"....Lane Staley let his voice to "Another Bick in the Wall 99'"..another cover.

As far as long term goals...mine are to get signed...it's just gonna take time...but you can't get in the studio without $$$, can't get promotional material without $$$, and you can't get people to hear it unless you play other songs they want to hear.....eventually if you are producing great originals you can work in more and eventualy all original...thats when you get noticed. Just some more things to think about......oh this is graphicrocks with a new name......it will be this one from now on.

[GetInWithIn]

Sorry Layne Staley.....R.I.P....i can't believe i spelt it wrong...hahaha...later

[oobie]

ToonaRockGuy, i couldn't agree with you more!! i drink my fair share of booze but i also know when enough is enough esp., if i'm the driver. it took me about 7 years to realize that boozing and cruzin ain't all that cool anymore, get a dd and go out.

you can have just as much fun without drinking as you do with it, but there is a bad side to being the sober, the drunk people sometimes get on your nerves, but hey still worth not getting a DUI or wreck.

just a little 2 cent to supprt ToonaRockGuy