MCCAIN ??

[VENTGtr]

Lisa,

I'd recommend you look into those countries health systems rather than what
you're hearing. In fact, people from HERE, often go to European countries, and
even Singapore, to get care faster than they can here.

There ARE cases where if some needs a transplant they may have to wait and
finding a match may take a while (But that happens here all the time as well).
BUT, that's as likely due to their smaller populations than anything else.

"Seems that with their types of system, you need to rely on the government to
give approval for each appointment and each treatment option."

This is completely NOT the case (Though, depending on your insurance provider,
certainly can be here).

"You know that any hospital can not refuse treatment to anyone that walks in
their door. So if you don't have insurance, they still have to take care of you."

Actually, they CAN, and have, here. PLUS, again, people get swamped with
medical cost for them, or even their kids, that they can NEVER afford to pay
back. They can lose everything. How that's deemed a working system I dunno.
A few years ago I needed surgery. I had good insurance and most of the cost
were covered. One that WASN'T was a simple 50 minute ambulance ride. I
was taken from Centre Community to Danville Hospital. Since it was a hospital
to hospital trip (Though there weren't any other options. Wasn't really able to
drive myself with the contraption I was hooked to and there needed to be a nurse
monitoring). Cost was between $800-900. We have ten dollar band-aids! Back
then, even paying THAT back was a huge problem for me and took a long time.

"I'm all for programs like CHIPS that provides a way for families to have coverage
for their children. You still get to make decisions regarding your children's doctors,
etc. "

Agreed, but funds for CHIP NEED to be higher than they are.

A friend of mine was the Assistant to the Surgeon General in Canada. She said
she used to get asked the most unbelievable questions by people from the U.S.
about how long it takes to get care for about anything there and at conferences
here would hear things said in speeches about their healthcare system that she
couldn't believe.

All we've done is take that vaunted "government" control and handed it to insurance
companies, who can now legally drop you if you're costing them too much. How in
the WORLD does that make sense?

Does that mean EVERY single thing about other countries health systems is perfect?
No, of course not. And it doesn't mean everything here is bad. BUT, when the entire
world is smart enough to see that it's citizens deserve access to health care and
have found better ways to provide it but we won't work towards it because we're
afraid of "Socialist" lurking around, we have serious issues.

And even WITHOUT universal health-care, according to the World Health Organization:

"The U.S. health system spends a higher portion of its gross domestic product than
any other country but ranks 37 out of 191 countries according to its performance,
the report finds. The United Kingdom, which spends just six percent of GDP on
health services, ranks 18th. Several small countries – San Marino, Andorra, Malta
and Singapore are rated close behind second-placed Italy."

SO, we're spending that much ANYWAY.

Best Health Care according to the WHO (This is overall rating. In the category
of the actual mechanism of healthcare and distribution, the U.S. is at 55):

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America

[Banned]

From Wikipedia on the wait times for sick patients in the Canadian health care system.


Wait times

One of the major complaints about the Canadian health care system is waiting times, whether for a specialist, major elective surgery, such as hip replacement, or specialized treatments, such as radiation for breast cancer. Studies by the Commonwealth Fund found that 57% of Canadians reported waiting 4 weeks or more to see a specialist; 24% of Canadians waited 4 hours or more in the emergency room.[20]

A March 2, 2004 article in the Canadian Medical Association Journal stated, "Saskatchewan is under fire for having the longest waiting time in the country for a diagnostic MRI — a whopping 22 months." [3]

A February 28, 2006 article in The New York Times quoted Dr. Brian Day as saying, "This is a country in which dogs can get a hip replacement in under a week and in which humans can wait two to three years."[21] In a 2007 episode of ABC News 20/20, host John S

[Lisa]

From Wikipedia on the wait times for sick patients in the Canadian health care system.


Wait times

One of the major complaints about the Canadian health care system is waiting times, whether for a specialist, major elective surgery, such as hip replacement, or specialized treatments, such as radiation for breast cancer. Studies by the Commonwealth Fund found that 57% of Canadians reported waiting 4 weeks or more to see a specialist; 24% of Canadians waited 4 hours or more in the emergency room.[20]

A March 2, 2004 article in the Canadian Medical Association Journal stated, "Saskatchewan is under fire for having the longest waiting time in the country for a diagnostic MRI — a whopping 22 months." [3]

A February 28, 2006 article in The New York Times quoted Dr. Brian Day as saying, "This is a country in which dogs can get a hip replacement in under a week and in which humans can wait two to three years."[21] In a 2007 episode of ABC News 20/20, host John S

Wow, to wait 22 months for a MRI would have killed my mom. I had heard from other cancer patients from Canada that they sometimes choose to come to the states and pay full price for diagnostics because of this. Some cancers are too aggressive for the wait.

Medications are easier to get from what they have told me. There are more advancements in treatments in Canada as well. But what good is it to have more treatment options if you die before diagnosis is confirmed?

[VENTGtr]

Geez. One selected opinion from one Dr. (One who is trying to push for
more of a "privatized" system in Canada) mentioned in a really long
open-source article.

Even if these WERE the case, and always the case, every single person
who needed these would never have to NOT have them because they
can't afford it.

[Hawk]

Please remember. No one is for the government taking over health care. I believe Clinton and Obama are trying to use the current system to either include more coverage (Oboma) or coverage for everyone (Clinton). You'll still pay your insurance company.

[Banned]

Geez. One selected opinion from one Dr. (One who is trying to push for
more of a "privatized" system in Canada) mentioned in a really long
open-source article.

Even if these WERE the case, and always the case, every single person
who needed these would never have to NOT have them because they
can't afford it.

One selected opinion???? The Canadian Medical Association Journal is one selected opinion, and you scoff at this. That is a pretty official medical association in the country we are discussing. You do not like their conclusions but you cannot blow the source away.

BTW I could fill up pages of references of articles published in real journals about the terrible waiting lines for health care in Canada. One thing I read is that for every bus load of Americans going up to Canada for cheaper prescription drugs, 2 bus loads of Canadians come to the US to pay cash for medical procedures.

[songsmith]

The problem with "data" regarding medical wait times is that it's almost all anecdotal, and tends to reinforce whomever quotes it. A few months ago I spent one night in the hospital, with no surgical problems, just diagnose and monitor for one night, not even 24 hours. $6500.00 US. Thankfully, I had insurance, but the truth is, in another country, for the same amount, I could have had a doctor come to my house for the night and sit by my bedside... and hook up a brand new high-def big-screen... and bring several hookers to ease my pain. This is anecdotal, of course, but hey, fight fire with fire. The American health system is nowhere close to perfection. I'm not saying we should socialize healthcare (nobody really is, that's Rush-speak), but it MUST be fixed.
There are three beneficiaries of the Bush Admin who've done better than anyone else. The obvious Big-Oil Buddies, and Big Health and Pharmacol. You folks fond of researching numbers that favor the Bushpilots... look up how much health costs have risen over the past 8 years and tell me if that number outstrips inflation. Look up how Medicare restructuring benefits US drug companies. Give me a bar graph showing how pharmacol profits look over the last decade. Now tell me again how making rich guys richer benefits me personally. (Incidentally, the third beneficiary is the banking industry. Remember when Bush tried to put lots of your SocSec money in banks' hands?)
The Republican strategy as of late involves just saying everything is cool. Gas prices are right where they should be, we've just grown too used to cheap gas (but the big 5 gassers made 120 billion in profit last year...). The economy is not in bad shape, unemployment is low and the stock market's still rocking (mid-sector wages are down, food and utility costs are soaring, and we've hit the point where we can't afford to drive somewhere and buy things). The troop surge in Iraq is working perfectly (the Iraqi government is powerless against tribal leaders, hasn't met a single goal set for them, and insurgent violence is back up sharply in the last 2 months). The Democrat party is in contentious freefall (the GOP hardline Right is already sitting the next election out, and Bush, well he's quacking like a lame duck, and NONE of the GOP hopefuls in the fall want anything to do with the current administration, preferring instead to invoke Reagan's name). My advice to the Republican leadership: Keep doing what you're doing. It's all cool, baby. Run campaigns like the Matt Shaner/ Derek Walker race locally, where they attacked one another so hard, the constituency picked the only other guy in the race, who didn't think he had a ghost of a chance because he had no money. America, and Pennsylvania, already spoke, and the pendulum is coming back towards the middle. -------->JMS

[Banned]

The big winner is the banking industry. Watch this movie by Aaron Russo, who produced "Trading Places" and "The Rose" among many others.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 3867390173

[lonewolf]

The problem with "data" regarding medical wait times is that it's almost all anecdotal, and tends to reinforce whomever quotes it. A few months ago I spent one night in the hospital, with no surgical problems, just diagnose and monitor for one night, not even 24 hours. $6500.00 US. Thankfully, I had insurance, but the truth is, in another country, for the same amount, I could have had a doctor come to my house for the night and sit by my bedside-------->JMS

Did you ask them up front how much it would cost?
Did you check around for a better price?

Aside from trial lawyers and big pharma, THAT is another of the biggest problems with the cost of healthcare. In non-emergency situations, nobody checks for the best value like they would when buying a TV or a car because for insured people, there is no incentive to do so.

A similar overnight procedure for apnea at a specialized sleep/cardio center can cost less than $3000 with as good or better diagnostic results.

[VENTGtr]

One selected opinion???? The Canadian Medical Association Journal is one selected opinion, and you scoff at this.

No....I said: "One selected opinion from one Dr.". I didn't say the C.M.A.

And...that's one doctor...and his opinion...so...Ya..that's one selected
doctor's opinion, right? Are you saying that EVERY doctor in Canada
holds this opinion?

First, have you ever been to an ER in the U.S.? 'Cause..if you have,
you've prolly waited a good long time. I have. And, ya, there've
been times when I've waited hours. Is it your assertion that here
we have walk in and have surgery the same day? People can, and
do, wait months and years for surgery in cases.

One thing I read is that for every bus load of Americans going up to Canada for cheaper prescription drugs, 2 bus loads of Canadians come to the US to pay cash for medical procedures.

Busloads of Canadians?

BTW I could fill up pages of references of articles published in real journals about the terrible waiting lines for health care in Canada..

And I can point out the fact that we have 14-16% of adults with no feasible
health care options.

There is, without a doubt, a shortage of doctors in CA. BUT, they simply
have a better system of healthcare. How is it that we are the only industrialized nation that doesn't have some form of universal care? OBVIOUSLY it's an issue here and I'll
bet you can't find ONE person in Canada, Britain, etc. who wishes they
had our system.

To end this mess, even Day (That one selected Dr.) in a speech said:

"The ability to pay should never be a factor for any patient needing health care in Canada. No one I know wants to adopt so called American-style health system. But, those who have studied or worked in other countries know there are systems with universal coverage and no wait lists. They do deliver better care at less cost than here in Canada."

SO, even the guy you seem to be touting says there system is STILL
better than ours. Ta deeeee.

[Lisa]

There is, without a doubt, a shortage of doctors in CA. BUT, they simply
have a better system of healthcare. How is it that we are the only industrialized nation that doesn't? OBVIOUSLY it's an issue here and I'll
bet you can't find ONE person in Canada, Britain, etc. who wishes they
had our system.

I bet I can find you at least 5 with kidney cancer (or caregivers) who wish they were in the US instead of Canada or Great Britain.

[lonewolf]

The big winner is the banking industry. Watch this movie by Aaron Russo, who produced "Trading Places" and "The Rose" among many others.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 3867390173

The Federal Reserve holds power, but not as much as purported in the video--all that about paying nothing but interest to the Fed is pure bullshit. At present, the Fed holds under $800B out of $9500B total U.S. public debt in the form of Treasury notes, bills and bonds. Its important to note that all profits from the Federal Reserve are given back to the US Treasury. This amount has been roughtly equal to the amount of interest paid to the Fed.

By far, the SS, er Social Security holds the most U.S. public debt at almost $5000B. This and the fact that the U.S. government's "checking" account is with the the Fed and all federal outlays are paid thru them has perpetuated the myth about "the Fed and other Federal agencies" controlling our Treasury.

More disturbing is the growing debt ownership by foreign powers. As of November 2007, Japan ($580 billion), China ($390 billon) and the United Kingdom ($320 bilion) were the top 3. China's ownership is growing at about 30% per year. That should be a very high priority national security issue.

I favor an asset-backed monetary system and I am not a big proponent of the Federal Reserve System, but I am also not a big fan of internet mythology.

[songsmith]

Did you ask them up front how much it would cost?
Did you check around for a better price?

.

Should clarify... I was having chest pains, shortness of breath, nausea... everybody thought sure I was having a heart attack, at least until the tests proved otherwise. Turns out it was a blood-pressure spike, followed by a panic attack when I bought into the heart attack scenario. I'm fine, treated the BP with a new med, and the panic with Lexapro, but I dropped it because MY INSURANCE DOESN'T COVER IT (didn't matter, I'm not the Smiley-Pill type, anyway). At any rate, I didn't have time to shop around.
Anybody see Frontline a few weeks ago? Taiwan has the best, cheapest healthcare system in the world, and several others place ahead of the US in cost efficiency.
Oh, and ever notice how many foreigner doctors there are in the US? Think that's for any other reason than because they can make a lot of money here? ----->JMS

[Banned]

One selected opinion???? The Canadian Medical Association Journal is one selected opinion, and you scoff at this.

No....I said: "One selected opinion from one Dr.". I didn't say the C.M.A.

And...that's one doctor...and his opinion...so...Ya..that's one selected
doctor's opinion, right? Are you saying that EVERY doctor in Canada
holds this opinion?

First, have you ever been to an ER in the U.S.? 'Cause..if you have,
you've prolly waited a good long time. I have. And, ya, there've
been times when I've waited hours. Is it your assertion that here
we have walk in and have surgery the same day? People can, and
do, wait months and years for surgery in cases.

One thing I read is that for every bus load of Americans going up to Canada for cheaper prescription drugs, 2 bus loads of Canadians come to the US to pay cash for medical procedures.

Busloads of Canadians?

BTW I could fill up pages of references of articles published in real journals about the terrible waiting lines for health care in Canada..

And I can point out the fact that we have 14-16% of adults with no feasible
health care options.

There is, without a doubt, a shortage of doctors in CA. BUT, they simply
have a better system of healthcare. How is it that we are the only industrialized nation that doesn't have some form of universal care? OBVIOUSLY it's an issue here and I'll
bet you can't find ONE person in Canada, Britain, etc. who wishes they
had our system.

To end this mess, even Day (That one selected Dr.) in a speech said:

"The ability to pay should never be a factor for any patient needing health care in Canada. No one I know wants to adopt so called American-style health system. But, those who have studied or worked in other countries know there are systems with universal coverage and no wait lists. They do deliver better care at less cost than here in Canada."

SO, even the guy you seem to be touting says there system is STILL
better than ours. Ta deeeee.

You obviously want a socialist health care system. Canada has one, Great Britain has one, Venezuela has one. Go to these places. You want socialism, and I don't. I have been working in the health care system for over 24 years, so I do know a little bit of what I am talking about. The worst thing that has happened is that the insurance companies started to follow the government model of Medicare and Medicaid and it ruined the whole system in a decade.

[Banned]

The big winner is the banking industry. Watch this movie by Aaron Russo, who produced "Trading Places" and "The Rose" among many others.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 3867390173

The Federal Reserve holds power, but not as much as purported in the video--all that about paying nothing but interest to the Fed is pure bullshit. At present, the Fed holds under $800B out of $9500B total U.S. public debt in the form of Treasury notes, bills and bonds. Its important to note that all profits from the Federal Reserve are given back to the US Treasury. This amount has been roughtly equal to the amount of interest paid to the Fed.

By far, the SS, er Social Security holds the most U.S. public debt at almost $5000B. This and the fact that the U.S. government's "checking" account is with the the Fed and all federal outlays are paid thru them has perpetuated the myth about "the Fed and other Federal agencies" controlling our Treasury.

More disturbing is the growing debt ownership by foreign powers. As of November 2007, Japan ($580 billion), China ($390 billon) and the United Kingdom ($320 bilion) were the top 3. China's ownership is growing at about 30% per year. That should be a very high priority national security issue.

I favor an asset-backed monetary system and I am not a big proponent of the Federal Reserve System, but I am also not a big fan of internet mythology.

Why should the Non-US Federal Reserve hold any of our money, and why should they decide what the interest is they charge us on OUR OWN money? The Non-US Fed Reserve is directly responsible for the price of gas doubling in about 3 or 4 years because they are devalualing the dollar.

[lonewolf]

Did you ask them up front how much it would cost?
Did you check around for a better price?

.

Should clarify... I was having chest pains, shortness of breath, nausea... everybody thought sure I was having a heart attack, at least until the tests proved otherwise. Turns out it was a blood-pressure spike, followed by a panic attack when I bought into the heart attack scenario. I'm fine, treated the BP with a new med, and the panic with Lexapro, but I dropped it because MY INSURANCE DOESN'T COVER IT (didn't matter, I'm not the Smiley-Pill type, anyway). At any rate, I didn't have time to shop around.
Anybody see Frontline a few weeks ago? Taiwan has the best, cheapest healthcare system in the world, and several others place ahead of the US in cost efficiency.
Oh, and ever notice how many foreigner doctors there are in the US? Think that's for any other reason than because they can make a lot of money here? ----->JMS

Ouch! Sorry to hear about that John.

Yes, those pesky Canadian doctors, lol. There are lots of foreign doctors here because there is a shortage of U.S. born doctors and immigration has granted them fast track consideration for visas. Sadly, it isn't much different than the need for cheap farm workers that has caused the 10+ million illegal immigrants. This fast-track has slowed a bit since 911.

Why is there a shortage of American doctors? You would think that the high paycheck would attract young Americans to medical school in droves. You know, supply and demand and free market and all that. The answer is that the medical paycheck is not attractive enough to go through 10 years of college and internship only to start a high-stress career at 30 saddled with $hundreds of thousands$ in student loans with 6-figure per year malpractice insurance {thanks lawyers).

So, the short answer is that we have a lot of foreign doctors because most college age Americans don't think they will make enough money in the medical field.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/07/ ... forei.html

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 84,00.html

http://www.workpermit.com/us/medical_h1 ... octors.htm

http://www.usimmigrationlaw.net/immigra ... icians.htm

http://www.webdoc.com/id5.html

[lonewolf]

Why should the Non-US Federal Reserve hold any of our money?

Because that is the bank where the U.S. government has its "checking" account. That is the only access to the U.S. government's money. EDIT: except for insurance in the case of default

and why should they decide what the interest is they charge us on OUR OWN money?

They do not charge interest on our own money. They only receive interest on Treasury notes, bills and bonds that they buy as investments. So does China and the SS, er Social Security. Of course, they loan money to big moneycenter banks and collect interest from them, but not the government (except from notes, bills and bonds, mentioned above).

The Non-US Fed Reserve is directly responsible for the price of gas doubling in about 3 or 4 years because they are devalualing the dollar.

I would change "directly" to "partially". Low interest rates by the Fed is not the only driver of the foreign exchange rate--its is traded on the open market just like oil. There are many other factors including the huge amount of credit eaten up by US government debt and the ever growing M2 money supply--that's still Treasury's baby. Also, only about 30% of the increase in oil price is attributable to the devalued dollar--the other 70% is supply and demand.

[Banned]

What did the Treasury do before 1913?

[lonewolf]

What did the Treasury do before 1913?

It was a government issued bond system along with the issue of asset backed (mostly gold) currency. This is where "National Banks" issued currency based on their US Treasury holdings. It was a very cumbersome system and the government did have to pay interest on their own money just to get it circulated.

It is important to note that the assets of the Federal Reserve Bank are NOT funded by the federal government. That's a common misconception. Like any bank, the money that the Fed lends to moneycenter banks is their money, not the government's and not the taxpayers'. Unfortunately, their money is insured by the US government and we get stiffed on bailouts.

[tom]

I'd recommend you look into those countries health systems rather than what
you're hearing. In fact, people from HERE, often go to European countries, and
even Singapore, to get care faster than they can here.

My brother lives in England. He waited 8 months for an MRI.
I believe 2 1/2 months for an appointment with a heart specialist.
Gov't healthcare is not all peaches & cream.

The biggest problem here in my opinion is the out of control lawsuits with ridiculous settlements. with some type of reasonable tort reform, healthcare could be more affordable.

[lonewolf]

The biggest problem here in my opinion is the out of control lawsuits with rediculous settlements. with some type of reasonable tort reform, healthcare could be more affordable.

You got it dead nuts (thats an engineering term where you aren't even off by a flea pecker).

Unfortunately, this is out of the jurisdiction of the federal government. Healthcare reform must take place at the state level to be effective.

There are also some ridiculous anti-trust laws that prevent hospitals from coordinating expensive equipment. Because of that, each hospital gets every freakin' new equipment that comes down the pike and they don't get scheduled efficiently. Its like an airline that has to maintain a 250 passenger route, but it only gets 50 people each trip. There are actually way, way too many MRI machines to handle the demand.

It all points back to lawyers. Whether engaged in lawsuits or writing goofy laws, they cause just about every problem we have.