Warning: political in nature

[lonewolf]

I for one can't wait till November.
Once the election is over we won't have to view these posts from our self appointed 'experts' about how things are going to be so much better......
I don't see things changing all that much, regardless of who is elected... this is sad, but true.

Are you paying attention at all ? Things have changed enormously from Clinton to Bush. Patriot Act (which brought us illegal wire tapping), huge increase in deficit, senseless war with 4000 Americans dead and thousands permanently impaired. Tax cuts to the rich. On and on.

A vote for McCain guarantees a continuance of the above paragraph. He has already said so. A vote for a democrat WILL be a vote for change.

I'm disappointed to see that you still toe the DNC party line without question or research. It reflects badly. If you did your homework, you would see that McCain is nothing like shrub.

[byndrsn]

A vote for McCain guarantees a continuance of the above paragraph. He has already said so. A vote for a democrat WILL be a vote for change.

I think things would change if McCain gets voted in - but not for the better. And I honestly believe a vote for either democrat will be a vote for a lot of change (all for the worse).

[Hawk]

I for one can't wait till November.
Once the election is over we won't have to view these posts from our self appointed 'experts' about how things are going to be so much better......
I don't see things changing all that much, regardless of who is elected... this is sad, but true.

Are you paying attention at all ? Things have changed enormously from Clinton to Bush. Patriot Act (which brought us illegal wire tapping), huge increase in deficit, senseless war with 4000 Americans dead and thousands permanently impaired. Tax cuts to the rich. On and on.

A vote for McCain guarantees a continuance of the above paragraph. He has already said so. A vote for a democrat WILL be a vote for change.

I'm disappointed to see that you still toe the DNC party line without question or research. It reflects badly. If you did your homework, you would see that McCain is nothing like shrub.

Let's just say I disagree less with the democrats than I do with the republicans. McCain might be more of a wilted thorn Bush.

[bassist_25]

I think that we need to get back to center, not to the far left or far right.

[lonewolf]

McCain might be more of a wilted thorn Bush.

Ignorance is bliss.

[lonewolf]

I think that we need to get back to center, not to the far left or far right.

Don't worry. McCain is already talking centrist and whomever wins the Democratic nomination will start talking centrist in September.

(oops, I don't have my old disclaimer up)

[YankeeRose]

Here are a few things you should know about John McCain, but probably don't:


According to Bloomberg News, McCain is more Hawkish than Bush on Iraq, Russia and China. Conservative columnist Pat Buchanan says McCain "will make Cheney look like Gandhi." His reputation is built on his opposition to torture, but McCain voted against a bill to ban waterboarding, and then applauded President Bush for vetoing that ban. The Children's Defense Fund rated McCain as the worst senator in Congress for children. He voted against the children's health care bill last year, then defended Bush's veto of the bill. McCain says the solution to the housing crisis is for people facing foreclosure to get a second job and skip their vacations. Many of McCain's fellow Republican senators say he's too reckless to be commander in chief. One Republican senator said: "The thought of his being president sends a cold chill down my spine. He's erratic. He's hotheaded. He loses his temper and he worries me." McCain talks a lot about taking on special interests, but his campaign manager and top advisers are actually lobbyists. The government watchdog group Public Citizen says McCain has 59 lobbyists raising money for his campaign, more than any of the other presidential candidates. McCain has sought closer ties to the extreme religious right in recent years. The pastor McCain calls his "spiritual guide," Rod Parsley, believes America's founding mission is to destroy Islam, which he calls a "false religion." He positions himself as pro-environment, but he scored a 0—yes, zero—from the League of Conservation Voters last year.


Sources:


1. "McCain More Hawkish Than Bush on Russia, China, Iraq," Bloomberg News, March 12, 2008
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... M&refer=us

"Buchanan: John McCain 'Will Make Cheney Look Like Gandhi,'" ThinkProgress, February 6, 2008
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/06/buc ... hi-mccain/



2. "McCain Sides With Bush On Torture Again, Supports Veto Of Anti-Waterboarding Bill," ThinkProgress, February 20, 2008 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/20/mcc ... ture-veto/



3. "2007 Children's Defense Fund Action Council® Nonpartisan Congressional Scorecard," February 2008
http://www.childrensdefense.org/site/Pa ... recard2007


"McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion," CNN, October 3, 2007
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/03/ ... interview/



4. "McCain Says Bank Bailout Should End `Systemic Risk,´" Bloomberg News, March 25, 2008
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... refer=home



5. "Will McCain's Temper Be a Liability?," Associated Press, February 16, 2008
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=4301022



6. "Black Claims McCain's Campaign Is Above Lobbyist Influence: 'I Don't Know What The Criticism Is,'" ThinkProgress, April 2, 2008 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/04/02/mcc ... -lobbyist/


"McCain's Lobbyist Friends Rally 'Round Their Man," ABC News, January 29, 2008
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4210251



7. "McCain's Spiritual Guide: Destroy Islam," Mother Jones Magazine, March 12, 2008
http://www.motherjones.com/washington_d ... guide.html


"McCain 'Very Honored' By Support Of Pastor Preaching 'End-Time Confrontation With Iran,'" ThinkProgress, February 28, 2008 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/28/hag ... dorsement/



8. "John McCain Gets a Zero Rating for His Environmental Record," Sierra Club, February 28, 2008
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/environment/77913/

[tom]

our self appointed 'experts'

Thank you, I'm flattered. ------>JMS

I don't remember mentioning any names

[Hawk]

Here are a few things you should know about John McCain, but probably don't:


According to Bloomberg News, McCain is more Hawkish than Bush on Iraq, Russia and China. Conservative columnist Pat Buchanan says McCain "will make Cheney look like Gandhi." His reputation is built on his opposition to torture, but McCain voted against a bill to ban waterboarding, and then applauded President Bush for vetoing that ban. The Children's Defense Fund rated McCain as the worst senator in Congress for children. He voted against the children's health care bill last year, then defended Bush's veto of the bill. McCain says the solution to the housing crisis is for people facing foreclosure to get a second job and skip their vacations. Many of McCain's fellow Republican senators say he's too reckless to be commander in chief. One Republican senator said: "The thought of his being president sends a cold chill down my spine. He's erratic. He's hotheaded. He loses his temper and he worries me." McCain talks a lot about taking on special interests, but his campaign manager and top advisers are actually lobbyists. The government watchdog group Public Citizen says McCain has 59 lobbyists raising money for his campaign, more than any of the other presidential candidates. McCain has sought closer ties to the extreme religious right in recent years. The pastor McCain calls his "spiritual guide," Rod Parsley, believes America's founding mission is to destroy Islam, which he calls a "false religion." He positions himself as pro-environment, but he scored a 0—yes, zero—from the League of Conservation Voters last year.


Sources:


1. "McCain More Hawkish Than Bush on Russia, China, Iraq," Bloomberg News, March 12, 2008
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... M&refer=us

"Buchanan: John McCain 'Will Make Cheney Look Like Gandhi,'" ThinkProgress, February 6, 2008
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/06/buc ... hi-mccain/



2. "McCain Sides With Bush On Torture Again, Supports Veto Of Anti-Waterboarding Bill," ThinkProgress, February 20, 2008 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/20/mcc ... ture-veto/



3. "2007 Children's Defense Fund Action Council® Nonpartisan Congressional Scorecard," February 2008
http://www.childrensdefense.org/site/Pa ... recard2007


"McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion," CNN, October 3, 2007
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/03/ ... interview/



4. "McCain Says Bank Bailout Should End `Systemic Risk,´" Bloomberg News, March 25, 2008
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... refer=home



5. "Will McCain's Temper Be a Liability?," Associated Press, February 16, 2008
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=4301022



6. "Black Claims McCain's Campaign Is Above Lobbyist Influence: 'I Don't Know What The Criticism Is,'" ThinkProgress, April 2, 2008 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/04/02/mcc ... -lobbyist/


"McCain's Lobbyist Friends Rally 'Round Their Man," ABC News, January 29, 2008
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4210251



7. "McCain's Spiritual Guide: Destroy Islam," Mother Jones Magazine, March 12, 2008
http://www.motherjones.com/washington_d ... guide.html


"McCain 'Very Honored' By Support Of Pastor Preaching 'End-Time Confrontation With Iran,'" ThinkProgress, February 28, 2008 http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/28/hag ... dorsement/



8. "John McCain Gets a Zero Rating for His Environmental Record," Sierra Club, February 28, 2008
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/environment/77913/

Nice post Yank !

[T@rgetDrone]

1) Ditto. Good post YR. I don't eat all of the spoon fed statements without inspecting it closely first. But, I agree with "too much" of the listed sources. Which frightens me. Really. I have no hate for Mickey Kane. Just don't have enough faith in him or enough respect for him (as a potential president) to vote for him. He does have more than his share of issues.

2) I also agree that we need change. Such an overworked and tired campaign one-liner. We don't need change for the sake of change. We need change for the better. Not change the route to arrive at the same destination. Not change for the worse. Talk is cheap. One-liners during an election year are even cheaper. Even if it is proposed as positive change, the devil is in the details. Change it how? We want specific details that will provide specific positive change. Change for who? Who will benefit from the change? Who will suffer? Change at what cost? How much is it going to cost the nation? Can we afford it? Who among us in this nation are going to foot the bill? Details please. People on this board will supply answers by the truckload. Some will make sense. Others won't. But we can't get a single, solid working specific from one damn candidate running for leader of the most powerful nation on earth? Change? Yeah, change is going to happen no matter what or who. Change is inevitable. "WE NEED change!" From these three, those words are a freakin joke. If it were Bobby Kennedy or Ron Regan making those statements, I'd expect a real effort and some success. As it is, I find it insulting. Though it does amuse me when people bite on this rubbish under the existing circumstances from these three amigos.

Billary/HillBilly? No thank you. Though it might be mildly amusing to see BillyBob in drag as the "First Lady." He could get groped without his permission by Gilbert the grabass Pool boy. The office boy could get too frisky during foreplay and shove an uncircumcised Macanudo up his ass, then light it. Hell, I might even pay to watch that! Some useful purpose served... for a "change."

Obama? Not yet, if ever. Great speaker. I'll give him that. It sounds good to the ears until you open your eyes. At which point, it all falls apart. His act is like The Wizard of Oz. It was all so powerful and magical until someone had enough smarts to look behind the curtain. Just fractured fairy tales. Nothing left to see here. Move along. Move along.

Mickey Kane? Meh, We should pass on this one too. But if you insist on dancing with the devil you know in fear of dancing with the devil you don't know, this is where your vote will land. I'll pass. I'm writing in my choice.

I want to make a very profound statement. Everyone pay attention please. I have this magic crystal ball with great powers. I am going to predict the future. I predict change! WooHooo!! Ain't I special?
It's ridiculous.

[tornandfrayed]

We need real change. We need Earth shattering change in order to restore any sense of dignity that the US lost over the last 8 years. There is only one candidate that can bring that kind of change. There is only one candidate that can imagine that kind of change.

When you look at the views in this thread it is amazing how diverse we are! Where one person sees deceit another sees the future! Where one sees lies and death another sees hope. It is amazing that we are all the same species let alone the same country...

[bassist_25]

Change it how? We want specific details that will provide specific positive change. Change for who? Who will benefit from the change? Who will suffer? Change at what cost? How much is it going to cost the nation? Can we afford it? Who among us in this nation are going to foot the bill? Details please.

Those are important questions which I think many people on both the left and right fail to ask when taking an objective look at the situation. It's so much easier to listen to the one-liners, then tuning into your favorite pundit to confirm your confirmation bias when it comes to making a decision like this.

[lonewolf]

Nice post Yank !

I agree. The legitimate sources (ABC, CNN, Bloomberg) illustrate how McCain is different from shrub.

Of course, the extreme "progressive" (socialist) sources (ThinkProgress, Alternet, CDF and MotherJones ) are going to trash him for not supporting "progressive" (socialist) programs, just as extreme "conservative" (neocon) sources trash Obama and (to a lesser extent) Clinton for supporting them.

[YankeeRose]

... We need change for the better. Not change the route to arrive at the same destination. Not change for the worse. Talk is cheap. One-liners during an election year are even cheaper. Even if it is proposed as positive change, the devil is in the details. Change it how? We want specific details that will provide specific positive change. Change for who? Who will benefit from the change? Who will suffer? Change at what cost? How much is it going to cost the nation? Can we afford it? Who among us in this nation are going to foot the bill? Details please.

Whether regarding Iraq and the treatment of our Veterans during and after their Service, solutions for the mortgage crisis (Also mentioned was stretching out payments for college loans, and a few other things that might assist a student. ), cutting taxes on those who need it the most, the middle class, copying what is working in the best schools in the country as opposed to 'Most Children Left Behind', creating jobs via BioEnergy/Fuels and improving the energy saving/usage of existing structures, ETC. (Including finding and using clean ways to use/burn Coal, and sell that to the world.), penalties on corporations to keep jobs from going overseas, Universal Healthcare for the millions uninsured (I'm not certain I'm remembering what I heard correctly, for I believe he said it would actually SAVE the government hundreds of billions! Although, AHA!, maybe that's why insurance companies lobby against it!), or making hybrid vehicles with a lithium battery that get 100 mpg actually affordable, so on and so forth, if you'd heard Bill last week, you'd have heard a few 'details'. He also said what his wife would like to accomplish is outlined in detail on her website (below), and while it's been a few days, I'm pretty sure he also said that every penny is accounted/paid for without increasing the debt we owe to China, Japan, etc., and those plans may also be there. (I went to the site, but it was taking a long time to download.)



Maybe the Obamas are extremely frustrated and that's what I'm seeing in their eyes? I've seen and heard his ads and it seems he'd like to do some of the same things as Hillary. (He'd NEVER have um, 'borrowed' some of her plans or ideas, now would he??? )



Btw, I could be wrong, but I believe those 18 to 22 will play a major role in this election. Along with the youngsters I spoke to the other day who've never Voted for President before, or those people who had previously Voted Republican, I'll Vote for Hillary in the Primary. However, if in November the choices are between Obama and McCain, as much as McCain is respected as a Veteran (Plus, he used to be a Centrist, but now toes the NeoCon line, a shame.), we all said we'd Vote for Obama as President and hope he'd utilize the benefit of Hillary's experience and expertise as his Vice President or at least Secretary of State.



www.hillaryclinton.com

[byndrsn]

Btw, I could be wrong,

Well..... That I would vote for - WITHOUT A QUESTION!!!!!

[byndrsn]

I think I'll post another "political" thread. This one will really piss most of you off.

Funny thing is this - for the longest time I really felt like something was wrong with me. So many of you on Rockpage believe different things than I do (amazingly opposite!!!)

Well, on a similar forum for my main hobby (not music), they have a section devoted entirely to politics. This forum has over 30,000 members from all over the world (although most are from the USA) and I don't care what time of day I log on - there are alwasy several hundred people "online".

Anyway - I feel better because most people on that forum feel the same way that I do. Oh yeah, we have a couple nuts (like the old SpellBound or BarFit). But only a few.

So, I'm going to post this message along with a link regarding Liberals being "NUTS". I will also make sure I include a disclaimer in the title.

I also want to say that even though I know I'm going to get flamed over this - I really don't care. I know that Liberals ALWAYS agree with someone who is an authority when it suites them, and ALWAYS disagrees with them when it doesn't suit them.

AND.... I really think most Musicians are liberals because there is something in there right/left brain that just makes it so - and I will gladly be a conservative over being a true musician if it means I have to also be a liberal.

Look for the link - you won't be able to miss it!!!!!

[BDR]

And I honestly believe a vote for either democrat will be a vote for a lot of change (all for the worse).

Not even remotely possible. The dumbest president ever sits in the Oval Office as we speak. There's no matching the chaos this idiot has brought to the table.

r:>)

[tornandfrayed]

GWB is not dumb Rob , he is just an arrogant person who does not seem to care about his country. He sees most people as below him and he has raped the country for riches for himself and his cronies.

That does not make him stupid though, evil maybe...

I do have little doubt that shrub will go down in history as the worst pres to grace the oval office. Maybe he should have gotten blown...

[BDR]

GWB is not dumb Rob , he is just an arrogant person who does not seem to care about his country. He sees most people as below him and he has raped the country for riches for himself and his cronies.

... and he's the stupidest person to ever hold the office. Want proof?

"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle this job is misunderestimating." ~ G.W. Bush, April 3, 2000

I have a whole calendar full of 'em.

... and 51 percent of the country was stupid enough to vote for him a SECOND TIME. That's the scariest part about this whole mess.

r:>)

[Merge]

I voted for Bush, but I have lost some faith in the Republican Party. I'm tired of hearing about the war and economy. I honestly don't like anyone that is running for President right now, I have no idea who to vote for.

The problem I have with people calling Bush stupid is this: If he's as dumb as some people say he is, how did he orchestrate 9-11?? He's so dumb that he can't even put a full sentence together, yet he managed to pull that off.

[Hawk]

George W. Bush is as solid as a rock . He's just not as smart as one.

[bassist_25]

The problem I have with people calling Bush stupid is this: If he's as dumb as some people say he is, how did he orchestrate 9-11?? He's so dumb that he can't even put a full sentence together, yet he managed to pull that off.

Or perhaps it's that not everyone who thinks that George W. is a failure of a President is some conspiracy nutjob watching Loose Change and ranting on Coast to Coast A.M. with Art Bell about how the Bush administration orchestrated 9/11.



I honestly believe that 9/11 is the biggest blessing that Bush administration has ever recieved, but I've never consumed so many beans that I thought that they orchestrated the event.

[Merge]

I actually like Coast to Coast AM. However, I'm not fond of Art Bell and I don't like the political rants on the show either.

[BDR]

The problem I have with people calling Bush stupid is this: If he's as dumb as some people say he is, how did he orchestrate 9-11?? He's so dumb that he can't even put a full sentence together, yet he managed to pull that off.

Or perhaps it's that not everyone who thinks that George W. is a failure of a President is some conspiracy nutjob watching Loose Change and ranting on Coast to Coast A.M. with Art Bell about how the Bush administration orchestrated 9/11.

Bingo.

r:>)

[songsmith]

Possibly the GWB administration's biggest failure was a failure to capitalize on events. Reagan turned his assassination attempt into power... the American people were understandably concerned for the first President to be shot since Kennedy, and he used that sympathy to great advantage. Bush was gifted with the greatest outpouring of worldwide goodwill in our nation's history... and went to Iraq.----->JMS