Fahrenheit 911 - The Temperature at which Freedom Burns

tornandfrayed · Post by **tornandfrayed** » Sunday Jun 13, 2004

I strongly suggest Esa that you should probably not consider abortion an option. I cannot be in the practise of passing judgement on others for my glass domicile would surely crumble. I am glad that there seem to be a lot of people who don't have any moral issues with imposing their opinions and beliefs upon others.

For the record I do not believed in abortion. Nor would I ever encourage it as an option.

My question is where is the line? Where do we begin and stop? Is abortion the end or will there be another topic that people feel strongly about that needs to be made into a law? If you reread the exact post that you quoted you will see that I plainly stated that we would NEVER consider abortion an option.

RobTheDrummer · Post by **RobTheDrummer** » Monday Jun 14, 2004

You know what? Here are some examples of what I stated in an earlier post about not sticking with party lines. Just because you are a certain party affiliation, does not mean you have to agree with them 100%. Kudos to anyone who can think for themselves.

Punkinhead · Post by **Punkinhead** » Monday Jun 14, 2004

bassist_25 wrote:
punkinhead wrote: Being a computer science major at IUP I have two mid eastern professors and one who works for the NSA in computer security when she is not teaching...Do you know that nearly all (in excess of 75%) computer classes being taught in the middle east are how to hack American systems? Do you also know that about two years ago, 7 of the 15 servers that control ALL internet functions in this country were hacked by these same groups?! Without us being able to know before hand about this, you would have been looking at 2002 as being the complete shut down of our computer systems as we know it. Thus being the complete shut down of our country. This is not bullshit....
You know it's funny you bring that up. As someone who is involved in the IT industry, it's astounding how little time is spent on security. People would be surprised on just how many drive wars they could do on a single street. (don't hack into peoples' networks, it's illegal. I was just speaking hypothetically)

Paul "Pa Representative for George Foreman Grills" Rainey

You're right but, no one seems to care about that, which is funny...anyone with a good bit of knowledge in hacking can go from town to town just terrorizing shit if they so felt like it....

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Monday Jun 14, 2004

Like Bassist25, I consider myself somewhat of a libertarian, and it just so happens that the Republican party claims to be of this thinking on most issues regarding government. No sense going with a weak 3rd party. I'd probably join a strong 3rd party.

In reality, I am an anarchist. Unfortunately, the human animal is still at the anal retention level of development, and is no where near ready for peaceful coexistance without government. Hell, we aren't even ready for pure democracy yet.

Anyway, I approach issues with logical deduction based on facts.

Anybody notice how hard it is to get real facts lately?

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Monday Jun 14, 2004

I'd like to know what you all think constitutes victory in Iraq, and especially, victory in the war on terror? I believe there will never, ever, EVER be peace in the Middle East. Ever. I believe Islamic fundamentalists (just like Christian fundamentalists, like we have here) will always feel they are on the moral high ground, and therefore will impose their (God's) will. So I ask you:

What is "winning," and how do we do it? ----->JMS

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Monday Jun 14, 2004

Victory in Iraq is when they have a constitution in place, the government operates under that constitution and they no longer have a need for U.S. security. I believe those objectives can be met within one year.

The war on terror will end when the American people no longer have the stomach for it. This will happen if the public puts overwhelming pressure on the government to relent, as with Vietnam.

The pump is being primed for Iran and its nuclear program as the next item on a very long terrorist hit list. Of course, Iran is located between Afghanistan and Iraq...how convenient. The U.S. is pressing for an inspections and information deadline, just like with saddam. That date will probably coincide with expected pullout dates from Afghanistan and Iraq. I've been posting this for almost 2 years now on various boards.

"Winning" the war on terror could be defined as preventing any further terrorist attacks on American soil. This will continue indefinitely, because there is no specific military objective that would define winning. Think of it as a football game with no time limit where you have to keep a sizable lead over the opponent.

I believe that as long as Christianity and Islam exist as major world religions, they will be at each other's throats.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Monday Jun 14, 2004

lonewolf wrote: In reality, I am an anarchist. Unfortunately, the human animal is still at the anal retention level of development, and is no where near ready for peaceful coexistance without government. Hell, we aren't even ready for pure democracy yet.

I've always been a big believer in the Robert Nozick theory that if a true anarchic state were to arise, it would be ephemeral. Do to the sociological nature of humans, we would eventually ban together to protect our lives and property.

It all comes down to being subservient to power. The second circuit in Dr. Timothy Leary's Exo/Info-Psychology model deals with the perception of alpha personalities and where you stand in the sociological pecking order. It's a cognitive function that develops in early childhood as you learn the politics of your household. Growing up, I was an only child, and my parents didn't push a lot of rules or beliefs on me. (just the normal stuff that most parents do, i.e. Don't lie, steal, ect.) The result is, I have major problems with power. Since I also have an INTJ type personality, if I see someone in power who seems irrational, illogical, or authoritarian for no specific reason, I'm definately going to to dismiss their position. It's been a problem in some instances, because I've turned down job positions that didn't allow me the liberal environment or automomy I need to function, but on the other hand, it's been a great blessing because it's pushed me to start my own business and develop my own leadership abilities.

RobTheDrummer · Post by **RobTheDrummer** » Tuesday Jun 15, 2004

Did anyone see President Bush speak today with Afghani President Karzi? Wow, talk about inspiring!

killyourscene · Post by **killyourscene** » Tuesday Jun 15, 2004

did anyone hear bush talk at the g8 summit? it could have been a skit on saturday night live. as far as bush speaking, it seems that when he says something, it's a surprise to him. next time he talks, watch him. he'll say something, then he'll grin as if he had just pulled off some amazing feat. i don't agree with people who say, "he communicates with the average american using language we can all understand." bullshit, he's the leader of the free world and he needs hooked on phonics. it's not very comforting to me. he's always instilling fear and presents himself as the only one who can save us from the "ever-present" threat. the terroristic mentality is nothing new and will never go away. why dwell in fear? and please don't say that he is just shooting straight with us. history will tell a different story.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Tuesday Jun 15, 2004

killyourscene wrote:did anyone hear bush talk at the g8 summit? it could have been a skit on saturday night live. as far as bush speaking, it seems that when he says something, it's a surprise to him. next time he talks, watch him. he'll say something, then he'll grin as if he had just pulled off some amazing feat. i don't agree with people who say, "he communicates with the average american using language we can all understand." bullshit, he's the leader of the free world and he needs hooked on phonics. it's not very comforting to me. he's always instilling fear and presents himself as the only one who can save us from the "ever-present" threat. the terroristic mentality is nothing new and will never go away. why dwell in fear? and please don't say that he is just shooting straight with us. history will tell a different story.

Agreed.

John McCain is a straight-talker. Jesse Ventura is a straight-talker. George W. Bush is not a straight-talker. When you use euphemisms such as "No Child Left Behind", you are not being forward. I'm a big advocate of Howard Gardner's theory of 7 intelligences, but I still think that a linguistic intelligence should be a bit of a requirement for a President. Hell, I think an above average IQ should be a requirement. (something Mr. Bush doesn't have) Then again, what do you expect from someone who proudly boast that he doesn't read the newspaper?

God bless Nepotism; helping unqualified people with the right last name achieve positions of power, wealth, and influence, since 1873.

RobTheDrummer · Post by **RobTheDrummer** » Wednesday Jun 16, 2004

I don't care what anyone thinks about how he speaks, that's not the thing I'm talking about. It's the fact that he and the afghani president talked about the tremendous progress over there in afghanistan. 5 million children are going to school now, many colleges are up and running. Women are free now and they are having elections soon. Talk about a turn around from the Taliban. And Kari thanked our President for helping his country and said they would never be as well off without us helping. I don't know about anyone else, but when I hear someone speak, I listen to what they have to say. I don't criticize how they speak, just to make them look dumb. Now John Kerry can speak, but he's dumb when it comes to issues and has trouble with flipping on just about everything.

Oh yea...President Bush doesn't read the newspaper because it is so left-biased. He knows the facts and doesn't get them from a newspaper. And how does someone with a low IQ graduate Yale? I suppose that's another right-wing conspiracy.

tornandfrayed · Post by **tornandfrayed** » Wednesday Jun 16, 2004

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

and more

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Same as always......

wake up drumming · Post by **wake up drumming** » Wednesday Jun 16, 2004

It was only a matter of time before those damn "left" people would come into the picture.....again! God knows all the problems in the world are the "Leftie's" fault! They ruin everything, they know nothing, perhaps they should be.....gassed! Hmmmmm....If some people would pull their heads out of Bush's ass long enough to realize that stereo-typing sucks, society would be a lot better off.

BTW, that shit-grin on Bush's face everytime he completes a sentence is both hilarious and damn scary at the same time. It's like he's thinking:

A) "Holy shit, I can't believe I just finished this sentence without fucking
up!"

B) "What in the living hell am I talking about here?"

C) "I am lieing straight in the face of America and getting away with it!"

RobTheDrummer · Post by **RobTheDrummer** » Wednesday Jun 16, 2004

I'm done with this whole debate stuff for now. I try to make valid arguments and points, yet no one seems to understand where I'm coming from and don't debate issues. Everyone wants to bash the President because that's all they can do. It's pretty sad when you have no positive issues to speak about. I'm not going to keep repeating myself. SO, thanks for some half-decent debate!

wake up drumming · Post by **wake up drumming** » Wednesday Jun 16, 2004

Rob, with all due respect, I think EVERYONE here understands your point of view by now and your entitled to that. I wouldn't necessarily say that you get on here to debate issues though. A debate is when you take the time to see the other side, it's when you repect other people's opinion but yet stand your ground as well. You are very PRO-Bush and you've made that painfully clear and that's fine, but you have refused to acknowledge any post that doesn't agree with your point of view. You can dish it out all day when it comes to putting people in your own little groups of right and wrong, but you can't take it when someone calls an obvious flaw in Bush politics or disagree with you in any way. I mean, c'mon man, what was the last thing you posted about MUSIC? It's all Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, it's getting kind of creepy man.

tornandfrayed · Post by **tornandfrayed** » Wednesday Jun 16, 2004

I think the general state of our society is good. I think that in most cases, regardless of our ploitical affiliations, I would help you in a jam and you would help me. I believe that mankind is inhernetly good. I believe that most of us want the same things, a safe, kind , place to live our lives and raise our families.

I believe that the chances of achieving any kind of harmony are much greater through music then they are though our "Democratic" process.

I believe in the old adage "What goes around comes around".

I believe that the salvation of humanity lies in a strong faith community and caring for the people around you.

See I have positive issues! You might think that I am on good drugs but you have to put this into perspective. I believe in original music and its ability to make people feel and react. I am obviously in the minority.

That was "monority" people who live with mono...

But I would help you regardless of your beliefs.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Wednesday Jun 16, 2004

I agree with you TAF. I generally believe that most people want the same things out of life. It's sad that the pundits pit each other against themselves.

As far as Bush's IQ, if I can remember correctly, he was only C student Yale, which is hardly impressive. The average IQ of a college student is 115; I'd imagine it would be a little higher for an Ivy League. Again, not very impressive. The correlation between SAT scores and IQ, I believe, is only about .80% The man cannot form a cogent sentence, let's face facts. If it weren't for nepotism, he wouldn't have made it as far in life as he has. Then again, the same could be said for many people in this world, so it's a moot point. But I disgress, I'm starting to sound like one of those pundits in the above paragraph.

Left-wing bias in the newspaper? Sounds like a left-wing conspiracy.

byndrsn · Post by **byndrsn** » Thursday Jun 24, 2004

I really hate to bring up this thread again, but after what I just read regarding this movie, I have to post it out here. First, I checked the "Urban Legends" web site and could not find anything about this one way or the other. Here is the piece that I read:

<i> "Muckraking filmmaker Michael Moore’s new distributor says they’ll take help from terror organization Hezbollah in getting the new bush-whacking “Fahrenhype 911” into the movie theaters of Middle East countries, reports WorldNetDaily.com. Front Row is welcoming assistance from Hezbollah in getting the film, sure to further inflame anti-American passions, placed in countries such as Lebanon, Syria and the United Arab Emirates, leading Melanie Morgan of Move America Forward to ask of Moore, “Whose side are you on?” </i>

If any of that is true - then I believe Michael Moore needs to stand trial for treason!!!

Urbs

tom · Post by **tom** » Thursday Jun 24, 2004

Michael Moore is more dangerous than anyone gives him credit.

He is a pure SOCIALIST who will, and has, gone after everyone regardless of which side of the fence they are on.

He would be more than happy to lead the United States to the doorsteps of the U.N. where we could give away all of our soviernty. I hope he goes away soon.

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Thursday Jun 24, 2004

If any of that is true - then I believe Michael Moore needs to stand trial for treason!!!

If that is true and the distributor does business with affirmed terrorists, they can and should be prosecuted under the Patriot Act. Moore himself could be indicted if he receives any proceeds or actively engages in negotiations.

He might be entertaining (just don't take him seriously), but if he's not careful who he deals with, he could end up the next guy we see on TV with an orange jumpsuit.

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Friday Jun 25, 2004

Wouldn't that just be poetic?

The thing that pisses him off the most, is what takes him down... that's irony for the ages right there. It would reaffirm my belief in karma!---->JMS

ToonaRockGuy · Post by **ToonaRockGuy** » Friday Jun 25, 2004

bassist_25 wrote: I've always been a big believer in the Robert Nozick theory that if a true anarchic state were to arise, it would be ephemeral. Do to the sociological nature of humans, we would eventually ban together to protect our lives and property.

It all comes down to being subservient to power. The second circuit in Dr. Timothy Leary's Exo/Info-Psychology model deals with the perception of alpha personalities and where you stand in the sociological pecking order. It's a cognitive function that develops in early childhood as you learn the politics of your household. Growing up, I was an only child, and my parents didn't push a lot of rules or beliefs on me. (just the normal stuff that most parents do, i.e. Don't lie, steal, ect.) The result is, I have major problems with power. Since I also have an INTJ type personality, if I see someone in power who seems irrational, illogical, or authoritarian for no specific reason, I'm definately going to to dismiss their position. It's been a problem in some instances, because I've turned down job positions that didn't allow me the liberal environment or automomy I need to function, but on the other hand, it's been a great blessing because it's pushed me to start my own business and develop my own leadership abilities.

Good God, I play in the same band as this guy?? LOL, Paul, you're using words I don't even know! You'll have to educate me on some of this stuff!

WearePennState · Post by **WearePennState** » Tuesday Jun 29, 2004

Michael Moore supports the terrorists..........no other way to put it. And for those of you who don't think the media is to the left, name me one newspaper (besides the Washington Times, maybe) that isn't liberal........

grimmbass · Post by **grimmbass** » Thursday Jul 01, 2004

Guys,

I promised I'd take a break from political posts, but just a line or two on this one.

1. If you're sure about your opinions and beliefs, go see the film and judge for yourself. If you don't want to give Moore your money, get a liberal friend to pay your way in.
2. 911 appears to be factually checking out. The shots of Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand and the Bush family hanging with the Saudi's are not faked. If someone on this board has reason to doubt the film, present the proof.
3. This film is definitely anti-Bush, but it's not pro Democrat. Trust me, they take plenty of barbs in this one.

I sat in an art house theater in Colorado last night to see it. People in the crowd booed, cheered, and reacted. They had OPINIONS. That is the point.

Glad you all do care about your sides on this argument. That's what America is all about.

Peace,
Kent

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Thursday Jul 01, 2004

911 appears to be factually checking out. The shots of Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand and the Bush family hanging with the Saudi's are not faked. If someone on this board has reason to doubt the film, present the proof.

Yes, everything he has is genuine footage. I would not doubt that Rumsfeld shook Saddam's hand at some time in the late 70s or 80s. If you will recall, we were friends with anybody who was enemies with Iran during that period. When Iraq went to war with Iran, we supported them with an abundance of military equipment. After Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990, and during the Clinton administration, there was talk of supporting Iran against Iraq. Now that we deflated Iraq's power base, there's sabre rattling with Iran again. The balance of power will be maintained. Its this little game we play called "Intervention". Its been going on since W.W.II and I don't think any party or president can stop it.

As for the Saudis, the Bush family made its money in big oil. You don't get big in big oil without dealing with the Saudis at some point. I wouldn't doubt these families have known each other for decades. Since osama bin laden is related to the ruling family, I wouldn't even doubt that President Bush has interacted socially with members of bin laden's family. Of course, the bin laden family has disowned osama and consider him an outlaw. Having said that, I don't see what is wrong with any of this, so long as its taken into context.

That's what Mr. Moore does best...takes sound bites and plays them out of context.