Fahrenheit 911 - The Temperature at which Freedom Burns

[Imgrimm01]

I don't think a nameless , faceless fetus is an American citizen, That again is my opinion but that is the difference my friend. Secondly where are the stats that compare the war with the (PBA).

[killyourscene]

This guy doesn't waste any time ruining the world...

He cut a half a BILLION dollars from the Environmental Protection Agency' s budget. Who needs to look after the environment when there's all that oil drilling going on?

He approved a bill that denies financial aid to students convicted of misdemeanor drug charges (though convicted murderers are still eligible for financial aid).

He recently sent a delegation to the UN children' s summit to declare that the use of condoms is not a valid way to fight AIDS and that abstinence is the only solution. This is the view shared by some other countries such as Iran, Iraq, Sudan, Libya, Syria, and the Vatican. It seems that his policy of, "No child shall be left behind" has a whole new meaning.

He wouldn't sign the Kyoto Protocol agreement on global warming, which was ultimately signed by 178 other countries. He also told the entire European community that he would listen to their arguments, but he would not change his mind, effectively treating Europe like an 8 year old child. This may have something to do with why most of the world hates the US.

He rejected an international accord to enforce the 1972 treaty banning germ warfare. Of course that would mean that the US would have to stop producing biological agents too.

And talk about the fox watching over the hen house, he nominated former mining company executive Dan Lauriski as Assistant Secretary of Labor for Mine Safety and Health.

He allocated only 3% of the amount requested by Justice Department lawyers in the governments continued litigation against tobacco companies.

He prohibited any financial aid from going to international family planning organizations that provide abortion counseling, referrals, or services with their own funds.

He provided every member of the Bin Laden family living in the U.S. a chartered plane shortly after 9/11 to fly back home to Saudi Arabia without questioning them. One of GW' s first petroleum venture was partnered with the Bin Laden family and George Sr. has been getting filthy rich selling defense contracts to the Bin Ladens. These are just some examples of the many ties the Bush family has with the Bin Ladens.

He officially withdrew from the 1972 Antiballistic Missile Treaty, gutting the landmark agreement-the first time in the nuclear era that the US renounced a major arms control accord.

Refused to join 123 nations pledged to ban the use and production of anti-personnel bombs and mines, February 2001

September 2001: withdrew from International Conference on Racism, bringing together 163 countries in Durban, South Africa

Over the past 10 years, the US prison population has more than doubled. This is mainly due to unfair three strikes laws, and harsher drug penalties. OK so maybe W. wasn' t behind this one, but the Republicans are.

International Plan for Cleaner Energy: G-8 group of industrial nations (US, Canada, Japan, Russia, Germany, France, Italy, UK), July 2001: the US was the only one to oppose it.

George replied, "Ken who?" when asked about his relationship with Kenneth Lay, the CEO of Enron, during the federal bankruptcy hearings. This was after Enron gave him their company jet to use for his presidential campaign. George and Kenny were such good friends that Ken was actually seen giving wedgies to the president in the oval office. Yet he still replied, "Ken who?"

[RobTheDrummer]

Here are the surveillance features in the Patriot Act. The act is for finding and arresting terrorists...Well I'm not a terrorist and so I don't have to be afraid of any of these rules endagering my freedoms. The act was mainly put together to help different parts of government cooperate in order to get terrorists. Look for yourself...

TITLE II--ENHANCED SURVEILLANCE PROCEDURES
Sec. 201. Authority to intercept wire, oral, and electronic communications relating to terrorism.
Sec. 202. Authority to intercept wire, oral, and electronic communications relating to computer fraud and abuse offenses.
Sec. 203. Authority to share criminal investigative information.
Sec. 204. Clarification of intelligence exceptions from limitations on interception and disclosure of wire, oral, and electronic communications.
Sec. 205. Employment of translators by the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Sec. 206. Roving surveillance authority under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978.
Sec. 207. Duration of FISA surveillance of non-United States persons who are agents of a foreign power.
Sec. 208. Designation of judges.
Sec. 209. Seizure of voice-mail messages pursuant to warrants.
Sec. 210. Scope of subpoenas for records of electronic communications.
Sec. 211. Clarification of scope.
Sec. 212. Emergency disclosure of electronic communications to protect life and limb.
Sec. 213. Authority for delaying notice of the execution of a warrant.
Sec. 214. Pen register and trap and trace authority under FISA.
Sec. 215. Access to records and other items under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.
Sec. 216. Modification of authorities relating to use of pen registers and trap and trace devices.
Sec. 217. Interception of computer trespasser communications.
Sec. 218. Foreign intelligence information.
Sec. 219. Single-jurisdiction search warrants for terrorism.
Sec. 220. Nationwide service of search warrants for electronic evidence.
Sec. 221. Trade sanctions.
Sec. 222. Assistance to law enforcement agencies.
Sec. 223. Civil liability for certain unauthorized disclosures.
Sec. 224. Sunset.
Sec. 225. Immunity for compliance with FISA wiretap.

If you feel scared by any of these things, then maybe you have some issues to deal with.

[tornandfrayed]

Sorry about not making myself clear. When I stated "No one Died when Clinton Lied" I assumed we would all understand that the reference was too the sexual misconduct charges. It seems that we wanted to crucify Clinton for lying about having sex, but when GWB states a big old pack of beauracratic bullshit and sets our country on a path of devatation it is OK. I think the bastard should stand trial and be impeached. Sorry!

I also believe that everyone who is "Pro Choice" has already been born. Unless Jonathan Edwards has a younger brother who talks to the "Soon to be born" I don't know that we can communicate with unborn babies to get there opinion. So it only makes sense that they are not making their opinions clear. Although as a stupid liberal; I am sure that I am missing the point and GWB has been told by God what the unborn of the world want and soon they will have a union, yada yada...

I am "Pro Life" but I believe that people should have the choice. If you make abortion illegal then you turn everyone who has an abortion into a criminal. When we made alcohol illegal people were turned over night into criminals. When we made drugs illegal we made a large percentage of our population into criminals. We don't need more laws telling people what to do.


Patriot Act
Sec. 201. Authority to intercept wire, oral, and electronic communications relating to terrorism.
Sec. 202. Authority to intercept wire, oral, and electronic communications relating to computer fraud and abuse offenses

Do you think that they just magically know which conversations are pertaining to terrorism? No they have to listen to everything! Does that make you feel good? Everything and anything is fair game. This is the equivilent of soemone saying that we can pull you over if you have a glove box in your car. I mean God knows you could have plans for a bomb in there!

I know that what we all want is the Greatness of America to overcome what we perceive to be evil. Well I pray that that happens, but I don't think that we are going about it the right way.

And I believe in the Death Penalty. I think public hangings for sexual abuse would probably deter a lot of people... Or maybe castration?

[byndrsn]

I don't think a nameless , faceless fetus is an American citizen, That again is my opinion but that is the difference my friend. Secondly where are the stats that compare the war with the (PBA).

Nameless?? Faceless? Wow. I just witnessed my wife's sonogram - and I don't think I would put it like that.

I will get the stats on partial birth abortion as soon as I have the time.

[byndrsn]

I also believe that everyone who is "Pro Choice" has already been born. Unless Jonathan Edwards has a younger brother who talks to the "Soon to be born" I don't know that we can communicate with unborn babies to get there opinion. So it only makes sense that they are not making their opinions clear. Although as a stupid liberal; I am sure that I am missing the point and GWB has been told by God what the unborn of the world want and soon they will have a union, yada yada...

I don't mean to offend you here - but that has got to be the most ridiculous reason to stand behind the abortion issue that I have ever heard.

[tornandfrayed]

While on the other hand you have no problem with someone murdering unborn american children. (I remember reading a quote somewhere that said something like this: "It's funny that all of the people who favor abortion have already been born").Urbs

Yes that is ridiculous! I am glad you noticed! Just like saying that everyone who supports abortion has already been born! There is no alternative. I support choice, not specifically abortion. My wife and I would never choose abortion as an option for ourselves. Does that mean that we feel a need to force feed our beliefs on everyone else? No it does not.

Having seen your childs sonogram I would pray that you too would not find abortion a viable alternative. This does not mean that a 15 year old who was raped cannot use abortion if she sees fit? There are always exceptions.

No offense taken I was referring to your quote! I found that ridiculous also! I guess at least we are entertaining each other!

[tornandfrayed]

And really this thread is suppose to be about the film. I watched the trailer I guess you could say anything that you want about it. After reading some of the posts about how this has a spin to it, I watched it again. I saw GWB on the golf course answering a question and then saying "Now watch this drive!". The only spin I saw there was hopefully a slice. He said it, is that disputed? I have to change my attitutde now. I am sorry. I say "Arrogant Prick and Demon from Hell". I mean do you think maybe he wasn't bright enough to know someone was taping him? I would buy that! Do you understand that The OPEC nations haven't raised the price of oil? Do you understand that the United Nations has worked well for quite a while? OK come on! Post away!

I think that the fact that this film thread has brought out so many issues is very interesting. It couldn't be a "Right Wing Republican Neo-Conservative" plot to divert our attention away from the real issue, could it? Nay....

[tornandfrayed]

And since the topic came up and you guys are all still sleeping...

I think that the terms "Pro Life" and "Pro Choice" are poor.

How about "Pro Life" and "We Kill Babies"

or

How about "Pro Choice" and "No Choice for You!" (Soup Nazi's?)

One thing for sure I never saw a "Pro Choice" person bombing a pre school. I did however see "Pro Life"??? people bombing and threatening. I guess they are only "Pro Life" for someone that they don't know!

And


The CIA Killed Marilyn Monroe and JFK because they didn't want the president to get into a divorce while in office... Republican plots

And

Ronald Reagan was an OK president, but John Wayne would have been the real shit. God Bless Ronald Reagan!

And

The 911 movie might be good but I prefer "Lord of the Rings", I mean come on! You might not have the strength to go on Mr Frodo But I have the strength to carry you! That brought tears to me eyes. Haven't been so effected since "Field of Dreams" Sam for president!

And

I might not agree with everything that you guys post but I would stand up for each and everyone of you any day of the week! At least you have the balls to have an opinion!

And

I think I just saw the loch ness monster in my pool! Gotta go!

[grimmbass]

Warning: LOOOOONG Post Ahead

Rob,

First of all thank you for your stunning cut and paste of the outline of the Patriot Act and for your questioning of my "issues". Very thorough research on your end. As the very letter of any law is open to review by the Supreme Court, let's try some historical interpretation now.

The first "real" privacy legislation was the Privacy Act of 1974, later amended by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act of 1986. The chief component of this act was that a court order is required to tap electronic communications of any kind, inclusive of e-mail, cellular phones, etc. The key point was that judicial review was necessarry.

These acts were later strenghtend by The Computer and Matching Privacy Act of 1988, which required permission and review procedures before perorming data mining or matching activities on idividuals; such activities, including the search of online purchasing records, are now available to law enforcement with next to no review. With the current pro-religious administration stance, I don't know if I'd order a book written by Allister Crowley via Amazon.com. On paper, these Patriot-legislated activitites technically violate the Fourth Amendment as it is written. Bottom line is that the Patriot Act undoes a multitude of existing privacy law.

Additionally, the FBI and NSA both already have internet surveillance/spytools, known as Carnivore and Echelon, respectively. These programs are capable, literally, of intercepting any online communication in the US. These agencies are capable of gathering this kind of data due to CALEA (Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act) passed in the early 1990's. This act stated that it was illegal for companies to produce or market communications devices in the US that law enforcement could not crack.

The point so far: Even prior to the Patriot Act, the various branches of the US Government already had established judicial processes and tools at their displosal. The 911 attacks, and our current war on terror, were not legilsatively hindered, so much as they were side-tracked by flat-out incompetence and dereliction of duty. Law enforcement was not using the tools already at their disposal.

The Patriot Act itself has several inherent problems:
1. There is no clear definition of the word "terrorist." Is someone who suggests violent action against the government in a public area a terrorist? If such is the case, many of our founding Fathers would probably have been considered terrorists.
2. Removal of judicial reviews in place to provide for a "sane" level of protection for personal privacy. There are reasons why judges have to sign court orders, mainly to prevent the abuse of power.
3. Seizure of personal information without an individual's knowlege and with fewer levels (and sometimes no levels) of judicial review.
4. It is a gateway to more invasive anti-privacy laws, such as the proposed Domestic Security Enhancement Act I posted this link before, but here it is again. An accidentally "leaked" DOJ memo detailsthe proposed "next round" of Homeland Surveillance Laws:

http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/d ... _Doc_1.pdf


Opposition to the Patriot Act does not lie only in the "left" either. Several Republican legislators have called for review and limitation of the powers of the Patriot Act as well. They are:

Rep. C. L. Butch Otter (Idaho)
Rep Ron Paul (Texas)
These two are backing a revised replacement for the Patriot Act called the Security and Freedom Ensured (SAFE) Act.

According to the Washington Post:
"The bill would limit the use of "sneak and peek" search warrants, which allow searches without notifying the target, to situations where a life is at stake, evidence may be destroyed or there is a flight risk. " Source: http://www.washtimes.com/national/20031 ... -3361r.htm

RepF. James Sensenbrenner Jr. (Wis, chairman of the House Judiciary Committee)
Rep John Coghill (Alaska) Speaking about the need for reform of the Act, Coghill stated: "We hope that a resolution like this, with the bipartisan support that it has, will urge Congress to re-examine the provisions of the USA Patriot Act that challenge the individual freedoms that make this country great. If we sacrifice our freedom, we let terrorism win." Source: ABC News. Full article at: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/Daily ... 30523.html

By the way, regardless of political affiliation or belief, stating that "something doesn't affect me, so why should I care" is a STUPID and APATHETIC way of NOT participating in your government. This is POWERFUL legislation. Sitting back and letting the government take care of you is a BRILLIANT way to lose your rights and freedoms. I acutally have conservative friends who've said "I'm not Muslim, so why should I worry about it?" Not a good sign for a melting pot.

We're Americans. Something that affects one of us affects all of us.

[tornandfrayed]

Bravo Grimmbass!

I agree that we should disagree! I agree that America was built on the foundation that all men are created equal and entitled to their own pursuit of happiness as they see fit!

Were we not made up from the misfits of society?

This is what makes America great!

[RobTheDrummer]

You know, you want to talk about history...I feel we need to go after terrorists because of what they did to us. 911 was bigger than any other attack on US soil ever. Now I would rather have the legislation passed that would help gather information than to let something of that magnitude happen again. The patriot act was passed how long ago? How many people do you know were arrested or has things siezed because of it? The only problem with left-thinkers is that they are full of conspiracy theories. Everything is a right-wing conspiracy.

You know, I don't care what kind of privacy acts were passed in the late 70's and 80's. The fact is that it's a different world out there now because of what happened. Now we're finally stepping us to rid the world of this scum that hates us and we want to cry about it here at home.

About the abortion thing...partial birth abortion is just wrong. It's plain out killing.

Hey kent what's this about the government taking care of us? The government's first duty is to protect us, and that's what they are doing. You wanna talk about government taking care, look at the welfare program designed by the left to keep people dependant on government so they can keep taxing more and more. The left in the country stives for bigger government, such as free medical benefits for all which would destroy this country further. What ever happened to JFK's statement ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country? I don't understand, people want to be able to do anything they want to, yet they want to have government take care of them...

[lonewolf]

Hmmm.. Nothing to do with free speech? The governement owns the airwaves? So you can say whatever you want as long as no one can hear you? Or as long as your not on the government's airwaves ( our airwaves? ).

Yep, you got it. The rules for the use of these of these airwaves are as old as the FCC itself. When you apply for a license, you agree to the terms of the rules set down by the public's duly appointed authority, the FCC. If you break the rules, you get sanctioned. Howard Stern broke the rules and is being sanctioned (as well as the carrier). I don't see why this is so difficult to understand. I am not yelling, but I want to make a point: THE USE OF THE PUBLIC AIRWAVES IS A PRIVILEGE, NOT A RIGHT!

To make it clearer, these are the same rules that apply to the network TV broadcasts. This is why you won't hear the f-word or have more than a brief flash of nudity on these networks. This is why there was so much crap over the Janet Jackson ordeal.

[bassist_25]

The left in the country stives for bigger government, such as free medical benefits for all which would destroy this country further.

Yeah, I agree. Only the rich should be given cancer treatment. It's good for Darwinism. If you can't pay hundrends of thousand of dollars for medical treatment, you don't deserve to be alive.

Yeah, fuck the lady who works in retail, but is constantly screwed out of benefits because her employer only gives her 30 hours a week. If she gets sick, she should have a better job, right? Right. Even though capitalism thrives on social classes, which means someone has to be on the bottom. It's cool, as long as you aren't that person on the bottom.

[/sarcasm]

[grimmbass]

Rob and Lonewolf,

Still waiting to hear how George Bush and John Ashcroft are protecting my individual liberties. I haven't heard a specific point about how the Patriot Act is good idea. How about some examples from you cats? I've tried to stick to facts and documented examples rather than simply stating with my unsubstantiated opinion.

I still hear a lot of derogatory references to the "left" though.

Re: Past privacy legislation: Pardon the cliche, but those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. In law, it is absolutely important to know how we got from a-b. When groundbreaking legislation is circumvented by a flawed act written out of fear, I get concerned.

Still waiting to hear the "right" opinion on why members of the Republican Party are taking a second look at the Patriot Act.

Still waiting to hear how additional legislation will help protect this country when existing legislation is not enforced.

Re: Wellfare and abortion: Definitely issues. No argument here. So are prescription drugs, the massive outsourcing of jobs, unemployment, and foreign oil. But let's stick to the current subject matter.

Give the readers something to go on beyond opinion. I want to know why you guys think the way you think.

Kent "Loyal Opposition" Tonkin

Re FCC: Great point on the Stern situation, indeed. We do indeed have decency laws. Stern crossed the line. A fine of several hundred thousand dollars is no big deal to that guy. I, personally, believe that if you don't like what you hear, turn off the station. We hear worse on Thursday evening network television.

[lonewolf]

Warning: LOOOOONG Post Ahead

Yep, you got it right. In the 80s, I worked with the NSA on secret data transferral when echelon was in its infancy. Of course, when you are talking about subjects like the B2 (I designed part of the telemetry recording system), F22/F23 (ditto), etc. this was an important capability for security. This was before Al Gore "invented" the internet. lol.

Today, this sort of power extends into firmware and hardware. In other words, Intel and AMI were capable, but not permitted to design hard/firmware that would block the NSA or CIA from targeting data transmissions from units using their CPU or BIOS. I have a huge problem with this and anybody bothering to read this should too.

Echelon was not originally designed to invade privacy, but since the internet was made public, it gives them that capability. You know damn well they are using it. My only solution would be to have a public internet separate from the government's that was not subject to the NSA's prowling. After having worked with them, I still wouldn't trust them.

On another note regarding the patriot act. I would rather see the legislation go too far and have the courts strike down the unconstitutional parts than pass a bill of swiss cheese that accomplishes nothing. Hopefully, they won't nail any innocents in the meantime. Hey it sucks, but it happens.

[lonewolf]

BTW, here are what I consider good things about the patriot act:

1. Protects Arab and Muslim citizens from reprisals.
2. Increased funding for FBI anti-terrorist IT
3. Expands the cyber crimes task force
4. Gives the U.S. the right to nationalize property from agressors
5. Gives various agencies the authority to share info
6. Expedites employment of translators
7. Strengthens the surveillance of non-citizens
8. (IMPORTANT) Expands present telephone surveillance laws to the internet
9. Enhances the foreign surveillance act
10. Enhances computer hacker surveillance and prosecution
11. Enhances the federal court warrant system to make it "realtime" nationwide
12. Allows for trade sanctions against foreign states sponsoring terrorism
13. Provides for civil liability against the U.S. for unauthorized info disclosure
14. Too many enhancements for money laundering prosecution to mention here. (a.b.c.d.e.f.g....)
15. Requires banks to perform due diligance for foreign and suspect accounts
16. Makes foreign "shell banks" illegal
17. Protection against anti-terrorist property forfeiture
18. Allows "interbank" funds forfeiture
19. establishes minimum standards for proof of ID
20. TOO MANY MORE FOR ME TO COUNT

[RobTheDrummer]

Ok kent, here are my answers to your questions:
1. There were 4 republicans you mentioned against the bill, big deal. Not all party goers vote exact like you are lead to believe. Some leftys voted for the patriot act, does that make them bad? Of course not. In politics, nothing is always agreed or disagreed. I think people are mostly free thinkers, we are not all pawns. I don't agree with everything republican, but I do believe in a lot of conservative values. That's how it goes, you choose the party you mostly share ideas with. That does not mean you have to strictly follow what the party does.

2. You have a point about not enforcing legislation. It's one that we need to start getting on the ball with. What I don't understand is that we have finally enforced all of the broken sanctions against Saddam, but yet no "liberal minded individuals"(is that better? PC?) Think Saddam should have been punished accordingly. President Bush is also getting tough on the terrorists, and that's what we need to do. We finally start to toughen up and everyone has a hissy-fit about it. And people wonder why legislation isn't always enforced.

Bassist: The left want to push for a medical system like Canada, which would be a huge problem. The doctors leave because they are underpaid for what they do and the simplest things have waiting lines like a transplant patient here in the US. That's sounds real good! Oh yea, and do you know how much the taxes would be then? When that happens, that is the first step towards socialism.

Everything is not the republicans fault either. The government has little to do with how business owners want to run thier companies. As soon as you want to start on giant corporations and republicans, take a look at elite leftists in the country.

And finally, we conservatives believe in hard work, faith, and making something of yourself. Not hand-outs to losers, dope heads, and bums. Coservatives are against big spending(someting GWB could majorly improve on), protecting national borders(another), and big government, therefore we believe in the constitution(which is a document that prevents government from getting out of hand.) You know, I don't always agree with President Bush, he's pretty light on social issues, but he's the best we have right now and is the right man for the job at this current time. People say that he's making more terrorists mad by going over in the middle east. But the fact is, they struck us without any direct instigation or anything. Nothing was done throughout the 90's about it, and they will hit us again if we let them. Being strong and overcoming them will be long and hard, just as the President said it would. That's about it for now.

Rob "Kent's conservative counterpart" Bonsell

[grimmbass]

To my "conservative" friends:

Thank you for responding with your points on the aforementioned subjects. Although I may not agree with you (especially on legislation going too far, which I do believe it alread yhas), I'm glad to hear why you think the way you do. I'd definitely read some good criticism backing up your points if you'll post it.
Still love to hear your opinions about Ashcroft's proposed "black shirts" and secret police, though

My main points in all of my rants are:
1. Not everybody in either the "left" or the "right" should be categorized in a single lump description. Many Democrats voted for the Patriot Act. Many Republicans now oppose it. There is never one side to these issues.

2. Let us debate with fact and research rather than emotion. Political passion is a good thing, but it must be based in truth and fact.

Thank God we have conservatives who keep our military strong, although one of the biggest military advocates in Congress is a Democrat (Murtha).

Thank God we have liberals who keep our civil liberties intact, although some of the biggest opponents of the Patriot Act are Republicans (Otter).

You're right about public healthcare being a step toward socialism. However, keep in mind that we're not a pure capitalist country. Otherwise, agricultural groups wouldn't be able to fix the minimum price of milk. A debate for another time, perhaps.

In parting, the words of Neil Peart re: balance of the "left" and "right" parts of our nature:

The universe divided
As the Heart and Mind collided,
With the people left unguided
For so many troubled years.
In a cloud of doubts and fears,
Their world was torn asunder into hollow
Hemispheres.

Peace guys,
Kent Tonkin,
Gun-owner, liberal thinker, opponent of the Patriot Act.

[lonewolf]

Still waiting to hear how George Bush and John Ashcroft are protecting my individual liberties.

The last time I looked we have troops in Afghanistan and Iraq fighting al quaida (they are responsible for a good deal of the bombings in Iraq). I can think of no more important way of protecting individual liberties than attacking an enemy who would take those liberties away from us. That is one of the primary reasons for having a government in the 1st place.

There are also a few sections in the patriot act that help to prevent property seizure and allows civil liability against the government if it discloses unauthorized information. Isn't it funny how you never hear anything about the good parts of this legislation?

Ashcroft is another story. The attorney general is limited to prosecuting cases where citizen's rights have been violated according to U.S. law. I haven't heard much about this kind of activity. On the negative side, he has probably crossed the line in his surveillance activities. If he has, there are 2 other branches of government there to stop him.

[Punkinhead]

Ok, I am the biggest hater of the Patriot Act there is...bar none..but that being said, here's some info you all should know about before bitching about it:

Being a computer science major at IUP I have two mid eastern professors and one who works for the NSA in computer security when she is not teaching...Do you know that nearly all (in excess of 75%) computer classes being taught in the middle east are how to hack American systems? Do you also know that about two years ago, 7 of the 15 servers that control ALL internet functions in this country were hacked by these same groups?! Without us being able to know before hand about this, you would have been looking at 2002 as being the complete shut down of our computer systems as we know it. Thus being the complete shut down of our country. This is not bullshit....

I, like everyone else, hate the Patriot Act, and everything else going on...but the necessity is there, it just needs some adjusting....

[lonewolf]

I'd definitely read some good criticism backing up your points if you'll post it.

To hell with criticism by the pundits both left and right. All you'll get is spin on a few select points. Do what none of our representatives did. Read the law and make your own judgements:

http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html

[bassist_25]

Bassist: The left want to push for a medical system like Canada, which would be a huge problem. The doctors leave because they are underpaid for what they do and the simplest things have waiting lines like a transplant patient here in the US. That's sounds real good! Oh yea, and do you know how much the taxes would be then? When that happens, that is the first step towards socialism.

Okay, I thought you were saying that health care should only be given to the elite rich. Many European countries have a medical system similar to Canada's and they seem to be doing fine. Wonder why Canada's is failling?

Being a computer science major at IUP I have two mid eastern professors and one who works for the NSA in computer security when she is not teaching...Do you know that nearly all (in excess of 75%) computer classes being taught in the middle east are how to hack American systems? Do you also know that about two years ago, 7 of the 15 servers that control ALL internet functions in this country were hacked by these same groups?! Without us being able to know before hand about this, you would have been looking at 2002 as being the complete shut down of our computer systems as we know it. Thus being the complete shut down of our country. This is not bullshit....

You know it's funny you bring that up. As someone who is involved in the IT industry, it's astounding how little time is spent on security. People would be surprised on just how many drive wars they could do on a single street. (don't hack into peoples' networks, it's illegal. I was just speaking hypothetically)

Paul "Pa Representative for George Foreman Grills" Rainey

[esa]

Yes that is ridiculous! I am glad you noticed! Just like saying that everyone who supports abortion has already been born! There is no alternative. I support choice, not specifically abortion. My wife and I would never choose abortion as an option for ourselves. Does that mean that we feel a need to force feed our beliefs on everyone else? No it does not.

Having seen your childs sonogram I would pray that you too would not find abortion a viable alternative. This does not mean that a 15 year old who was raped cannot use abortion if she sees fit? There are always exceptions.

No offense taken I was referring to your quote! I found that ridiculous also! I guess at least we are entertaining each other!

So I just turned several shades of color. Forcing beliefs? About a baby? Whether it's in womb or out womb. Let me tell you something. When ever life occurs, whether you think it's when the sperm and egg first joing, or becomes the zygote to alien shaped bean baby.. to a full term baby.. the outcome is still the same. That's a child. A tad pole will become a frog no matter the stage (from egg encased to hopping). A baby is still a baby. You tell me that it's not and I'll direct you to watch a film. Silent screams. Great film. You can watch the fetus jerking as it's limbs are getting pulled apart. Oh, should I mention that it also jerks around from the saline bath it's receiving. Salt water on fragile skin. You tell me that baby doesn't feel anything and I'll call you a liar.

Abortion is a simple answer all to people who do not want to take responsibility for their actions. A womans' choice. Right. That's bull shit. I have seen my share of people go into a clinic with that attitude and come out scarred for life. Mentally and physically. ::shakes head:: I have also had two people in my life get told that their child was going to be severely retarded and possible deformation of it's body. She was born beautiful and healthy. Nothing wrong. No downs. No disfigurement. Not a damn thing. And she wouldn't be in our lives if her mom would have aborted that problem.

Adoption is a better option. How many people can't have kids that want them but can't find children? A body goes through various changes and when that child is aborted, the chemical changes are stopped with out being fulfilled (birth).

And lastly.. I don't want to hear about women getting raped and having a way out. That was not that girls choice to be taken advantage of, but it's also not the childs fault either. Don't take it out on them. The girl will still have Psychological problems for a while and aborting the infant will not help them be resolved nor make her forget. I got the "pleasure" of this experience when I was eighteen. I've gotten over alot of it, but there are nights I have woken up screaming for no apparent reason, have woken up with my arms scratched up and down from trying to "escape" my attacker, all these years later. And I will tell you this now. If I had gotten pregnant (thankfully, I did not) from that helled experience, I would take that and make it the highlight of my life. Out of hell a gift. A child. An innocent.

An abortion does not fix anything. It's just a reason to get yourself out of trouble. And it causes more problems in the long run.

More than my .02

[Hawk]

esa. Thanks for that stunning post. I agree with you and hope you are well. I'm a proud bleeding heart liberal who is against abortion ( yes, there a bunch of us out there ).