Fahrenheit 911 - The Temperature at which Freedom Burns

[songsmith]

I prefer those little muff-goatee's, that's what I call 'em, you know that look like Scott Ian from Anthrax? Yum!
BTW, if you had a dictionary, you'd find the word "catalyst," but probably not "catylyst." Ordinarily, bad spellings are de rigeur, and even acceptable, but if you're trying to prove you're more intelligent...
----->JMS

[GUITARII]

mmmmmmm bush!!! Sloppy taco's! That's it... tongue lashing's and moustache rides for all interested females! PM for arrangements. Length of ride will be determined by interested party(s).


Disclaimer: Ride operator reserves the right to exclude anyone from boarding that may cause suffication or the possible need for operator to seek medical attention when the ride is finished.

[daveb]

I think the thing that Michael Moore does that really polarizes people is that he disquises his opinions in the form of documentary film making. He is really just an entertainer. Like Cher or Slipknot, you can like their stuff or not but I think it's dangerous to confuse their message with the Gospel. If you watch Bowling for Columbine or The Big One, you see all these facts that are presented "objectively" but there is only one way to interpret their presentation. He is a great manipulator of people and he knows how to spark controversy. That's the buisness he's in. He and Disney were probably all ready to release the new "documentary" with little hoopla until The Passion of the Christ came out. Being the shrewd entertainers they are they realize how much $$ can be made when CNN and FOX News are doing all your promotion for you. Why advertise when the media will make your movie news. That also gives it unfounded credibility when it's on the news instead of on E!. As long as people will talk openly when somebody sticks a mic in their face, film makers will be able to edit the results into whatever vision they have for their audience.

Where do I stand on the big issue? I like a little hair. It traps the pheremones and heightens the whole or, hole experience for me.

[byndrsn]

mmmmmmm bush!!! Sloppy taco's! That's it... tongue lashing's and moustache rides for all interested females! PM for arrangements. Length of ride will be determined by interested party(s).

You do of course realize that it was your cousin who started this, don't you??

Hey, whatever dude, she is a cutie, but, well, I won't judge you ....

[GUITARII]

[/quote]

You do of course realize that it was your cousin who started this, don't you??

Hey, whatever dude, she is a cutie, but, well, I won't judge you ....[/quote]


It's not gross or unacceptable if we go into Bullscreek for the ride is it?

[RobTheDrummer]

You know what pisses me off about the whole leftist thing? They will attack and attack everything that Bush does, even if it's right. They will spin it to make it look bad and be nothing but negative. That's it though, that's all they do...they have no plans of their own that would be better than Bush, all of their ideas are about taking the things that make this country what it is and throwing them away. That is all....oh yea and I guess no one died when Clinton bombed an aspirin factory where he deemed they were making weapons of mass destruction...oh yea, everyone forgot about that.

[byndrsn]

You know what pisses me off about the whole leftist thing? They will attack and attack everything that Bush does, even if it's right. They will spin it to make it look bad and be nothing but negative. That's it though, that's all they do...they have no plans of their own that would be better than Bush, all of their ideas are about taking the things that make this country what it is and throwing them away. That is all....oh yea and I guess no one died when Clinton bombed an aspirin factory where he deemed they were making weapons of mass destruction...oh yea, everyone forgot about that.

Rob,

On this post I would agree with you almost 100%. The only thing I would disagree with is the aspirin factory - the only reason for that is because I would give Clinton the benefit of the doubt on the facts (because I am conservative and you know how well the CIA and FBI have been lately). I wouldn't bet on that incident being intentional (as far as the aspirin factory).

There are so so so many things I want to respond to on this thread and I don't know if I should or just let it be. I really don't know. I almost wish that Cayden would have let sleeping dogs lie, but he/she didn't.

I am a conservative democrat. I am a registered Dem that believes in conservative issues. Does anyone really want to hear my views??? Seriously??? If you do, I will post them. I have many responses from this discussion that I would love to share with all of you.... but, I don't know if I should waste my time.


Be forewarned though - if I do share my views, I am going to take this post even further into the """"political"""" spectrum.

(do you have the stomach for it?)

Urbs

[RobTheDrummer]

You know what, I left something out. That's a pretty sick name for a documentary. The left bashed Bush and said he was exploiting 911 when he ran a political ad to remind us what we are fighting for. Here comes that ugly ass Michael Moore(he looks like a big ugly penguin that needs to shave), bitching about what terrorists did to us, and in the meantime wants to tear apart a President that is taking the fight to them. I mean talk about someone who has their head on backwards. Then he has the guts to say it's our fault that people attack us? I mean come on!! What is wrong with this picture??? Insinuating that by being free, we sometimes have to pay a price by having terrorists take down a few landmarks and kill a few thousand people is just disturbing. No wonder this country is going down the shitter.

[byndrsn]

You know what, I left something out. That's a pretty sick name for a documentary. The left bashed Bush and said he was exploiting 911 when he ran a political ad to remind us what we are fighting for. Here comes that ugly ass Michael Moore(he looks like a big ugly penguin that needs to shave), bitching about what terrorists did to us, and in the meantime wants to tear apart a President that is taking the fight to them. I mean talk about someone who has their head on backwards. Then he has the guts to say it's our fault that people attack us? I mean come on!! What is wrong with this picture??? Insinuating that by being free, we sometimes have to pay a price by having terrorists take down a few landmarks and kill a few thousand people is just disturbing. No wonder this country is going down the shitter.

AMEN brother!!! Amen!!
(i am so glae to hear the voice of reason and sanity!)

[grimmbass]

Kent from Grimm here, coming in a little late to defend my friend's honor!:)

Sinman, whoever you are, a few questions fer ya

1. Where did you ever get the idea that The Grimm writes about destruction? I've been in this band since the beginning, and I don't think I remember a single song about destruction, devestation, or even, well, dilapidation. Help me out here....even "Sukupon" isn't about destruction....

2. Sinman, if you think you can ruin our reputation, I've got sad news for you! The job's already done! We play original music in Altoona! You can't take something from someone who has nothing. And for your information, I have friends and family in the military. I support them as Patriots and soldiers. I hate this war. And, for your information, so do many of our active duty service people.

3. By the way, Sinman, if you have the courage, come to a show and identify yourself. My name is KENT. I play for THE GRIMM. Show yourself and debate me in person and maybe I'll respect you. Bob did nothing to warrant a personal attack on your behalf. We're at Peter C's next Friday, June 19th. I'm the ugly long haired guy. Come on up and say hello. What is your name, eh? What band do you play for?

4. The Grimm does not "stand" for any exact politcal viewpoint. We are a band. We write and perform music together. We are four people with very different viewpoints (I will let the others identify their own personal or political beliefs). The point: We get along because we tolerate our differences in opinon, and occasionally, those tensions make the songs even better.

5. I'm honored to have Torn and Frayed backing Bob up.

And to the everybody:
1. If Michael Moore's use of "9/11" in the title of his new movie is tasteless, it's on par with Bush's self-aggrandizing use of "9/11" in his campaign ads. Getting elected on somebody else's blood is just as shameful.

2. People DID die under mysterious circumstances during Clinton's time. Regardless of personal prefernces, let's not try to deify any of these guys.

3. Based on popular vote, we did not elect George Bush. In an era of online banking, databases, and e-commerce, it's asinine that we still count paper votes and rely on the Electoral College to make the final call. Everyone is willing to quote online statistics to back their own viewpoint. Everybody is more than happy to trust e-commerce for protecting their bank account. Let's put the elections online.

4. Can we please stand on facts here and quit labeling people? I'm sick of hearing terms like "you left wing guys" or "you Republicans." I'd like to think that we're all a little more individually complex than a simple title. I hope to God that nobody here votes straight party tickets. I hope that you look at your leaders as thinking individuals beyond their party affiliation. when the "labels" take over, the discussion becomes a name calling contest, and blood hot emotions take over reason. The bottom line is if you are left or right wing enough, you will find a way to bend the facts your direction.

5. Since when is it un-American to disagree with your government? That's the main tennet upon which democracy (or at least this Republic) is built upon. Why do so many want to silence the voices of dessent? Without them, we have, well, Totalitarianism. OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS ANSWER TO US, THE TAXPAYERS. WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO QUESTION THEIR ACTIONS. When we can no longer question our government, we have lost the most important part of our way of life.

Kent "watchu talkin' about destruction, Willis?" Tonkin

[killyourscene]

sinman, i know it's not the law or anything, but you should probably put your hemet back on when you ride your "harley". i enjoy the grimm, and agree with their views, but i guess that makes me a "butthead with a small penis"......are you dead fucking serious with those lame-ass insults?......derelict.....

[bassist_25]

It's always been a well known fact that Michael Moore lies, spins, and "edits" his movies to present a point. But the left needs more loudmouthed fanatics. The right has some intelligent, well-thought people such as David Horowitz, and Tucker Carlson; unfortunatley, they are always over-shadowed by the hate-monging idiots such as Limbaugh, and Coulter. The left needs a loudmouthed, Oxy-medicated hypocrite, and some dumb chick who will say things such as, "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Unitarian Universalism". C'mon, the left needs a guy from New York who refers to the the children of conservative families as "Green Diaper Coker Babies". The right has Pat Robertson; the left needs some Buddhist monk who wants to rewrite the constitution to follow the five precepts and eight-fold path. Oliver North has a radio show, so why don't we get someone involved in the Clinton sex scandal? C'mon liberals, where's your anger? Is Michael Moore and Al Franken the best we can do?

Personally, if it were up to me, I would bring about a paradigm known as Foremanissm. "What is Foremanissm?", you ask. It's a syngergy of Plato's Republic, the political musings of John Rawls, and the economic prosperity of the George Foreman Grill. By giving tax breaks to investors, we could become the world's leading exporter of George Foreman Grills. By giving large farm subsidies to farmers, we could begin to mass produce George Foreman Steaks. I know what you're saying, "Dude, with all of this talk about basing the economy on George Foreman Grills, aren't we sliding towards Marxism?" In actuality, Foremanissm is a theocracy. Though early religous insitutions tried to brand Mr. Foreman as a demon from hell, he has proved himself to descend from the higher astral regions.

The above paragraphs of political satire have been brought to you by our sponsor, Hammered Paul Productions; a small moonshine company, specializing in all of your homebrewed, 150 proof, alcohol needs.

.....We now return you to your regularly scheduled reality....

[wake up drumming]

Who really has the right to bitch about Moore using "9/11" in his title? Like Kent from The Grimm said, it's just as bad, EVEN WORSE, that Bush uses this tragedy as part of his ad campaign! I saw his commercials and it's absolutely sickening that he would use images of the fallen towers with him super imposed over them with all this bull-shit talk like he's somekind of savior and did so much to resolve this horrific situation. Remember when those pictures were taken, there were still bodies trapped under that rubble, the situation was FAR from over and he used those images in a VERY distasteful manner. BTW, sorry ROB, but he (BUSH) hasn't done shit! When he finds who was responsible for this (Bin Laden...in case you all forgot) and punish him for this crime, then you can hang by his nut-sack all you want, until then all this other bull-shit is a distraction from the truth!

Also, every media in the world takes information and twists it into something that represents their point of view and backs their beliefs. EVERYONE. CNN has actually been called on this more than once. If you think our Government doesn't do this as well, then you are sadly mistaken.

Remember it's all ART. Artisitic freedom and freedom of speech is alreadly being threatened everyday, Most of us here are artists in one way or another and if you support certain art (no matter how extreme it is) to be rejected by a higher power, then get ready when they shut down your band because they don't agree with your lyrical content.

[tornandfrayed]

WUD has a good point. Each and every presentation of "facts" has a spin put on it. Each issue has people who detract from it or add to it in some way or another. Moore's movie is his view. Would you make a movie and not have it say what you wanted it to say? Would you write a song and not have it present your biew?

The problem is that we each see things a different way. I am not a big supporter of GWB but that does not mean that I will dismiss each of you because you are supporters. I will actually look at things and try to understand what your opinion reflects. In most cases everyone here is very articulate with the way that they present their case. Certain hostile members aside each and every viewpoint is well made.

If we choose not to even try to see each others points then we are no better then those that we so adamently dispise wether it is left or right wingers..

[RobTheDrummer]

It's not 911 that makes me upset, it's the ENTIRE title that gets me. I mean come on, Farenheit 911- the temperature that freedom burns? This is telling me that there is a price to pay for freedom and that price is two of your country's greatest buildings getting blasted by planes and almost 3000 people dying. What's wrong with this picture? I don't care if it's "art" or whatever, it's just wrong. I could shit in the middle of a grocery store and say it's "art" but when I get arrested, do you think the police give a damn? No, because it's wrong and indecent and there is no excuse. Michael Moore has no excuse to spew his rotten thoughts and ideas on the country, especially when it's something of this nature. As I've said, President Bush used 911 to REMIND us of what we are DEALING WITH....I mean after it happened, we were united and had no problems with kicking some ass over there, which we did and are still doing. Now everyone seems so forgetful. I don't know why, maybe it's the paint chips on your brain? But that's the reason, it's not that hard to understand.
Kent, what's the deal with not calling each other what they are? I mean if someone calls me a Republican or Right Winger, I take that as a compliment. But when I say leftist or Lib, everyone gets upset? What's the big deal, take pride in what you believe!!! Oh and Jim, I never said to shut anything or anyone down...I'm just voicing my opinion, that's what's great about this country.

[tornandfrayed]

I think the title is more closely related to the fact that the government is using the 9/11 incident to take away our freedom. I guess using that image to remind us what we are fighting for also serves to remind us that we attacked the wrong country. Some of us still remember that the attacks were instigated by Ossam Bin Ladin and not Saddam Hussein.

As far as pooping in a grocery store, well I don't know that depositing a bowel movement is the equivalent of movie making in any non-comic way. I guess you could argue that some movies look like they were pooped out of somebody's behind, but then again, that is perspective.

Forgetful, no we remember the atrocity that "Ossama Bin Ladin" has gotten away with. It enrages us that he has gotten away with it and we are not even going after him.

Paint chips on the brain? Whatever, name calling is sort of self defeatist. Everyone on the board sees it for what it is. Unless your name is metalruls or sinbad or whatever. I prefer to ignore those comments anymore. I think those types of comments are meant to hurt people and that is not nice nor is it the intent of a discussion board.

And while I might not agree with your views I do agree with the fact that America is the Greatest Country in the world. We have certain unalienable rights that I hope will not be taken from us in the name of security. I also choose to believe that although our comments and opinions differ we could all sit together and discuss this and still walk away respecting each other's opinions.

[wake up drumming]

Paint chips in my brain? Thanks Rob, as always, anyone that doesn't agree with you is wrong. I am so tempted to go off but I'll just go outside, have a smoke, right after I tell it the way it is:

It's ok for Bush to use images of the fallen, smoldering towers, where thousands of people lost their lives for his ad campaign, yet you get pissed about WORDS, a freakin' title is all it is man, don't be a hypocrite.

The only thing those commercials "REMIND" me of is that Bin Laden got away with MASS MURDER! Yet everytime I say this, YOU, like the rest of your party (if you wanna go into stereo-typing) side-step the issue and find justification in this BULLSHIT war in Iraq! All I've ever said over and over again is that Bush is an ASSHOLE for not concentrating on finding the real culpret behind the 9/11 attacks!

Oh yea, I don't need "reminded" about 9/11 from fucking BUSH. I was there less than a month after it happened playing with stept on at CBGB's. I saw the rubble and the remains of the building smolder, I saw all the flowers, letters, pictures, that were left by family, and I could smell the stench of burnt, rotting, bodies when the wind would blow in our direction. Sound Harsh? It's true. It was then that I actually shed a few tears and "REMEMBERED" that Bin laden needs to be fucking killed along with anyone associated with him! Your great fucking president has shifted that focus and is side-stepping the issue, just like you do in all your Bush-asskissing posts.

One more thing, I've never heard of shitting in a store to be a form of art. Painting, songwriting, poetry, FILM-MAKING are forms of art. If you shit in a store, you deserve to go to jail and if you'd ever claim it was art, than you're an idiot. This guy has the right to put that film out there and use whatever title he decides, just like you have the right to tell me I have paint chips in my brain. FREEDOM OF SPEECH WORKS BOTH WAYS, DOESN'T IT??

I guess I did go off, oh well.

[mad hatter]

Well said WUD

[lonewolf]

Remember it's all ART

There are degrees of art. To illustrate: on a scale of 1 to 10, Mozart's work is a 10 and NUMetal is a 0.5. ProgMetal rises to 1. ProgMetal where the guitarist can actually play a virtuoso guitar lead worth a listen would bring it to 1.5, although I have never actually seen this phenomenom.

Moore's work isn't much different than "The Man Show" recurring skit, "The boy on the street", where they get the 11 year old kid to ask or do outrageous things to unsuspecting passersby. Of course, this is a very small part of a funny show that is relegated to late night on a cable channel. Hardly the stuff of the big screen. Controversy is the only reason Farenheit 9/11 made it off the editing room floor.

[tornandfrayed]

The Cannes film festival is not really subject to the same laws of media attention that our American Media is. The fact that this film won an award should be noted. I don't really agree completely with organized crime but I like "the Godfater". I would hate to miss a really good film because I disagreed with the subject matter. The two are seperate. It can be hard to discern the truth because of the way the media portrays things. I really think that there are varying degrees of truth to each and every arguement that is brought up here. I find it amazing that some people cannot even conceed that their way might not be the only way.

This society that we have evolved is not always black and white. No matter how much people might need to think that it is. There is usually an agenda behind political decisions and it is not always what some of us want it to be.

Don't be fooled into thinking that the Dems have your best interests in mind, but... don;t let yourself be fooled into thinking that GWB has your best interests in mind either.

I will see the film and I will see and hear other points of view. Will I ever really know "The Truth"? I hope that I will know some degree of the truth.

[Imgrimm01]

I very very seldom direct posts at any 1 individual BUt I have held my tongue for a long time and so.... Rob what is your deal I believe that you're an intelligent person yet some of the things you say just make NO sense you go on and on about all that Bush has done, and what this war is for, and how we all benefit etc... yet you never tell us what exacytly any of that is.. You preach freedom and the joys of being an American yet you support a president who is constantly coming up with new ways to take those VERY FREEDOMS away, dude read the patriot act just Fukkin read it ,instead of just assuming it's a good thing cuz Georgey said so read it ! And how has this war been a benefit to you? Don't waffle tell me how you are better off today because were at war. TELL ME !! And after you tell me then give those same reasons to a mother who has lost a child over in that Hell hole and we'll see if she feels helped in the same way, Yesterday I was accused of not supporting the troops and being un american and that's wrong I support the troops with all my being that's precisely why I want them outta there I'm tired of seeing our young people die for a worthless cause because within a year of us leaving there they will be mass murdering each other all over again. It's NONE of our business man !! and I've only met you once but as I recall you're a young fit guy if you like the war so much hey why not enlist ?? You and both of Bush's daughters could go fight this just war how bout it? Lets take care of our own b4 worrying about everyone else . Healthcare , Homeless, Gas prices, Education these are all issues that concern me as an American not wether or not Habib can send little Apu to school. So Rob come on man get in the game here and look at the issues The REAL issues !!

[Sinman]

imgrimm01, after yesterday, dont think i would do this, but i agree with you about the patriot act. many organizations, under this act, could, and will be considered a terrorist group. as a matter of act, colleges are stating that white supremist groups are terrorist groups. this is a fine line, though i dont and are not a part of a supremist group, they are using the bill of rights the way they see fit.
many motorcycle organizations are being considered a terrorist organization.
their is something called the RICO BILL. this bills states you are guilty because of association. the federal government used this, with results favoring the feds, against many organized crime groups, the outlaws mc, the mongols mc, they tried to even push it and use it against priests who knew about abuse, this, on the other hand, did not happen. go figure.
yes, the patriot act is un-american.
.....and as a member of this page, i am truly sorry for lashing out at you specifically yesterday.
as i thought, we are both true americans because we have different points of view, that make perfect sense.
i hope you accept this apology without punking me.

[esa]

Remember it's all ART

There are degrees of art. Controversy is the only reason Farenheit 9/11 made it off the editing room floor.

Just because they call it art does not make it art. Animal sht on the Virgin Mary's picture does not make it art no matter what Hilary says. Me coming over an pissing on your foot doesn't not make it moving art no matter what I say. And the longer you let anything that is like that sit...it will fester and not smell so good. So Michael Moore has an opinion. Woop de doo. Good for him. He came make movies!!! Ooooh. Ahhhhh. That man is one of the few people in this world that I wouldn't mind seeing him locked in Hittlers "factories" just for a few hours to see how many of the ghosts come to visit him.

I have never watched bowling for columbine. I never will. Nor will I ever watch anything this man ever puts his hands on. I remember him getting an oscar (or some kind of statue for his "work"), going up to do his acceptance speech...and hearing him berate the whole country. Fkin' our president and our parents for raising such gun wielding retards. Okay, sex fiend me.. ass lovings is a great great thing sometimes... but not when you feel like some one just forced you to grab your ankles. That man is arse fkin' the country with his movies. He didn't say a single thank you to the people that helped make the film. Not even a thank you to his mother or.. well you know what I mean. I don't like the man. I need a shower any time I hear one of his speeches about his "art".

Freedom of speech? Political exposure of opinion? Sure.. I'll accept it. But that man's attitude about anything does not make it art. You can set a flag on fire as long as it's in the ground and being put to rest but the moment it's waved in the air burning people get offended. The flag coming out of a toilet (wow, again with in Ms. Hilary's district.... maybe she and Mikey should screw?) in front of a soldier from WWI/II area (it might be Nam.. just can't remember right now) is not art.

Okay.. I personally am going to leave this thread alone now. So.. remember to book your rides with Dan, let Bobby catch ya.. and.. Urbs... well let Urbs do what he does best.
Me? I'll be waiting on the sides with the camera until art I like to see happens or I'm invited to join in.

::and is done::

[Punkinhead]

Here's my spin on this movie...It's political rhethoric....

Im not a republican or democrat...I don't believe Democracy exists anymore...so don't call me one or the other when I post this...

The way he put in about the look at this drive shit was funny. I'd like to see what context it was really said in. No doubt in my mind some reporter came up to Bush as he saw him on a golf course and asked him a question. I'd say the same thing if you came up and asked me a question about my work while I was golfing. This alone makes me think that this movie is pure crap...Maybe it will bring up some lies but, I think Michael Moore is nothing more than an ass with an agenda...just my take on anything he does....

I refuse to go into any political bullshit on this cause it's all a waste of time....He who has the most money wins...face it... we don't have much of a say....

[Imgrimm01]

Sinman .. I do accept your apology , and Thank You . We all sometimes have a bad day and perhaps yesterday was yours, Either way see me at Peter C's next weel and we'll have a beer NO HARD FEELINGS !!!