"bass-ial" discrimination?

[grimmbass]

To all my brothers and sisters on the bottom end....

I recently visited an area music store (outside of Altoona) to check out a few sweet four-strings when I became involved in a discussion with the owner about tone, technique, and the "role" of the bass. When I cited a few of my favorite unorthadox players, namely Geddy, Chris Squire, and some of my local heros (names ommitted for fear of leaving someone out), the owner offered his unsolicited opinions about "bass". According to this gentleman:

1. Bass players who use picks are somehow less skilled than finger players (note: some of my favorite players use picks, as do I on occassion.)
2. Bass players should not play solos, "busy" parts, or in any way be a part of the musical forefront.
3. Bass players need to know their "place" (note: my blood pressure still rises when I write this last one)

I responded that bassists, like all other musicians, should not be afraid to question, expand, and experiment with the roles and limitations of their instrument. He did not exactly agree.

Just curious...anybody out there been a victim of "bassial" discrimination? Should we know our place? And is George Bush an anti-bassist? (Just kidding...please, no comments on this one!).

Your brutha on the bottom, and low man of the Grimm Totem

Kent

[GUITARII]

Kent-

Phuck that guy! He obviously doesn't know his ass from that lump he's got sitting on his shoulders. While I'm not a bass player, I gotta say that, in my opinion of course, is the one instrument that you definitely know isn't there when it's not, or when the player phucks up... you definitely hear it. My dad taught himself to play, and has played for many years and many bands back in the day.... while he never played with a pick and is phucking phenomenal (in my book), he always found a lot of technique to "steal" from those young and old, fresh or experienced on the instrument..... pick or not.

Consider this.... that dumbass behind the counter may just be some no talent hack that never gets any more time plugged in than the back of the room at the store.

(Disclaimer: That last comment was not meant to insinuate that all clerks in the music stores are talentless hacks... I know quite a few folks selling gear that I would give my left testicle to have the talent they do in their little fingers!)

[bassist_25]

According to this gentleman:

1. Bass players who use picks are somehow less skilled than finger players (note: some of my favorite players use picks, as do I on occassion.)

That's funny; I guess that Paul McCartney, M’Shell NdegeOcello, Chris Squier, Steve Swallow, Carol Kaye and Flea (yes, Flea occasionally uses a pick) are "Unskilled" bassists. By all accounts and definitions, we should be plucking with our thumbs. (cite any early Brian Wilson/Beach Boy performances for an example) When Leo Fender first started to build Precisions, he placed the finger rest on the bottom of the bass, because you were suppose to pluck with your thumb. I suggest you tell this gentleman to go catch a Hurricanes show, and then after he sees Jeff Clapper tearing shit up, ask him then if pick players are less skilled.

2. Bass players should not play solos, "busy" parts, or in any way be a part of the musical forefront.

I take it this gentleman has never sat and studied any counter-point in classical music. Some of the composers were doing amazing things with the bass sections for orchestras. Tell him to listen to a Jazz band, and instead of having the bassist play walking lines, (which serves two purposes: outlining the harmony, and keeping the beat) to play "unbusy" root/fifth lines. So what if a bassists wants to solo? It is a melody instrument. Personally, I rather hear Gary Willis do an interesting bass solo, than choke through another guitar driven, cliche, pentatonic, wank-fest that has dominated Rock music for the last forty years.

3. Bass players need to know their "place" (note: my blood pressure still rises when I write this last one)

I don't want to get all existentialist on everyone, (though I always seem to ) but what is this "role" I hear so much about? Did some kind of music deity come from The Heavens and declare an offical role for each instrument? The role the bass plays in a Chuck Berry tune, is different from the role it plays in a Bela Fleck tune, it different from the role is plays in a Primus tune, is different from the role it plays in a Stevie Ray Vaughn tune.

I take it he went onto to expound that a bass with more than four strings is not truly a bass, slapping is wanking, and Jaco was just a wannabe guitarists.

[Killjingle]

I suppose theres only one logical thing to do. Ever see Falling Down? Get all William Foster on his ass. D-FENS

[grimmbass]

The sad thing was that this guy was a musically-credible dude. He thought that Jaco was cool, but that Chris Squire (and most prog rock bassists) were excessive. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, and I stated mine directly to him. People can be great musicians while remaining slaves to old musical preconceptions.

Funny thing is, I've played in a lot of "genre" bands, including country, pop, and 1950s/rockabilly, and I've learned from all of them. My current group, and musical love of my life, allows me to use everything I've learned. I guess that I'm trying to help create a musically-organic growing and changing experience rather than being stuck to a preconception. But then again, as bassist_25 says, I may be waxing existential;).

Gotta love da bass!

[tonefight]

Well unfortunatly a bass player doesn't get alot of regognition but if you play with a bad one then a good one comes along, you can tell the difference, and you can tell the difference in the ones that learn the songs and the ones that just follow along.
The only thing I'm not real fond of is when a bass player gets bored and throws too much stuff in or untasteful stuff. Our bass player now uses good judgment in adding to a bass line but its really anoying if a bass player over does it or plays just to hear himself, of course this goes for guitar player too, I know a few that are overly busy

[esa]

kent wrote:

3. Bass players need to know their "place"


The only time this is applicable is when their woman is telling them to do something ::nudges Jamie::

Other than that... I'm in awe when I watch my Uncle Dan play...or Chad... or Adam.. or (and especially) Jamie...Geddy...Bass Players in general. I can do a few things on a bass...but damn! My fingers don't stretch that far that easily. I give mad props to bass players. I think of it this way: Drummers keep the beat. Guitarists make the music. But the Bassists put the pizzaz into a piece. They are an intrical part to the tuneages. If there isn't one there, I agree...missing something.
So.. yey you bass slapping hippies! We love you!

[Imgrimm01]

I have been in many bands over the last 20 or so years ( showing my age ) and as I sat here and thought about it I realized for the first time that in all except 1 Kent was the bass player, ( wow Kent we have a history ) anyway my point ... I tease Kent alot about a monkey replacing him etc... But in all seriousness Kent is the glue that many time holds Grimm together and I have more respect for him and what he does than I could ever put into words on this post, Kent has shown me just what a bass player CAN do. And I as a singer may never again say this so be sure to copy and paste this somewhere incase you need it later to throw in my face here it goes .. the fans may look at the frontman and the girlies may love the guitar player BUT if you take the bass out of the mix the sound WILL suffer. ( notice I said nothing bout the drummer that my friends is another story) So hats off bass guys you are the shit...

[lonewolf]

I would expect that this music store owner will remain just that for the rest of his musical career.

As far as plectrum vs. fingered. As with women, I prefer the tones produced by fingered bass, although picking sounds good with progressive and heavier stuff. Can you slap with a pick? Would that be PickSlapping? Is there anybody out there that specializes in PickSlapping?

Does it really matter that there is anal music store owner? State College was chock full of them in the 80s and early 90s. You get used to it.

Anyone remember the BIG RED NOTE?

[FatVin]

This kinda crap has been going on since the beginning of time and it was bullshit then and it's bullshit now.

The gentleman to whom Kent refererred to earlier must have have had the IQ of a cardboard box.

1. No Picks "better" than a pick. . .ridiculous, that's like saying guys who plays an Ibanez bass is better than a guy who plays a Fender. . .it's nonsense. There are all kinds of bass players who play in all kinds of ways, I seem to recall seeing Peter Gabriel on SNL a few years back when the song "steam" came out, his bass player has sticks fitted over his fingers, weird, but it got the job done.

2. Can you say John Entwhistle, where would The Who be without The Ox.

3. Well, even a broken clock is right twice a day cause, Yes, a bass player needs to know his or her place. . .and so does a drummer and a guitarist and even a vocalist, no one musician is more important than the band as a whole. . . ever.

but having said that there is a maxim I have learned in all my years and experience has taught me the truth of it:

You can rehearse with out guitars, or drums or keyboards....but you can't rehearse with out a bass player

That's my 2 cents

[songsmith]

I see this issue kinda the way tonefight does... it's all about the song. One of my favorite (and definitely the most influential to me) bass players is Ian Hill from Priest. He plays with a pick, always absolutely airtight in the pocket, and never ever overplays... he has to back 2 great lead guitarists and synch with a first-rate drummer, so there's not a lot of real estate left for him to take up. He's bottom-end for a metal machine, and I always "got" that. In a power trio, the bassist can be a bit more flowery 'cause there's more room to stretch, and Geddy still gives me a stiffy, especially considering he plays keys, Taurus pedals, and sings like a mofo as well, on some of the most challenging material in rock history.
A blanket statement like "bassists who use a pick suck..." is something bored guitar salesmen say when the store isn't very busy, and a B.S. session is in order. I wouldn't take it personally. ----->JMS

[DMFJ03]

As a bass player - this pisses me off. As a musician (I might not be a good one, but still one none the less) it offends me. Kent, I give you complete respect for not blowing out that guys front teeth.

To Pick or Not To Pick, that is the question. Myself? Both. Some songs I just need to feel the strings with my fingers to get the tone I want. Some sogs (like our ESY original "Without You") I need to use a pick because of speed. Can I do it with my fingers, yes. Is it hard, yes. Is a pick easier, yes. On top of that, I screw up my nail polish when I use my fingers! LOL - Seriously though, who gives a rats ass about playing with or without picks. I mean, Adam from Wake Up Screaming (one of my local bass hero's) is an awesome bass player and he uses both. Kent, you're another one of my bass hero's as well. Dan, you're Dad blows me away all the time. It might not be my cup of tea, but hot damn!!

As far as a bass player knowing their place? If that was the case... I guess I wouldn't be head banging, swinging from rafters, jumping up and damn, prancing about with the crowd, knocking into my other band mates, and.....get my point? If I wanted to have my bass hiked up to my neck, standing in one spot, do simple root notes - hell, I'd have hung myself with my B string by now.

As Dan said "Phuck 'em"

I say - do what you do. Stand out. Play that thing like you own it. And if you want anyone elses opinion, give it to them.

Rock out with your "rooster" out.

[F19Drummer]

Don't feel bad about using a pick. Us drummers that use sticks are just looking for the easy way out....LOL

[byndrsn]

Don't feel bad about using a pick. Us drummers that use sticks are just looking for the easy way out....LOL

U still use sticks?!?!? What the fuck is wrong with you?!?!?

[byndrsn]

Don't feel bad about using a pick. Us drummers that use sticks are just looking for the easy way out....LOL

U still use sticks?!?!? What the fuck is wrong with you?!?!?

Oh, and by the way - for the rest of you wanna bees: I gave up on guitar picks long ago! Way too flimsy!! The true sound comes from broken teeth. Yeah, it may mean you have to adjust to playin in the wrong establishment in order to acquire them, but it is so worth it!!

(((Yep, I know it - I must get to bed before I read anymore posts and attempt to respond to those too!)))

Urbs

[GUITARII]

Oh, and by the way - for the rest of you wanna bees: I gave up on guitar picks long ago! Way too flimsy!! The true sound comes from broken teeth. Yeah, it may mean you have to adjust to playin in the wrong establishment in order to acquire them, but it is so worth it!!

(((Yep, I know it - I must get to bed before I read anymore posts and attempt to respond to those too!)))

Urbs[/quote]

Urbs..... You Play Guitar?!!

Who loves ya baby?!!!

[byndrsn]

Urbs..... You Play Guitar?!!

Who loves ya baby?!!!

JERK!! I expected more from one of my own!!!

[GUITARII]

[/quote] JERK!! I expected more from one of my own!!![/quote]

come on baby.... you're the ying in my yang.... my right hand man.... the rythm to my song.... the teeth to my strings! You know that!

Where's the love?!!

[byndrsn]

JERK!! I expected more from one of my own!!![/quote]

come on baby.... you're the ying in my yang.... my right hand man.... the rythm to my song.... the teeth to my strings! You know that!

Where's the love?!! [/quote]

__________________________________________________________

Dude.......

Please, please, please, don't imply that you know me. You can't even get the quotes to work on this forum.

<u> <b> COME ON!!! </b> </u>

Sorry brother, I still love ya!!

[DMFJ03]

OWNED!!!

[byndrsn]

OWNED!!!

What is that supposed to mean??

[DMFJ03]

You gave 'em the old "Zing" treatment.

[byndrsn]

You gave 'em the old "Zing" treatment.

Oh, I get it!!

[GUITARII]

OWNED!!!

And if ANYONE would know what that's like.....

[DMFJ03]

::Shurgs:: Can't win them all, ya know? LoL