A Great Battle Is About To Begin

[DMFJ03]

The time has come for us as musicians to take a stand against the PLCB laws of Age. This campaign right now is just a baby and it is going to be a long and hard battle. What we are looking for is for other musicians to come forth, and help us in this struggle. If anyone is interested, please let us know by responding to this thread.

To understand the full concept of this, please check out the threat in the "Law" section.

Thanks.

[FatVin]

The age laws, the noise ordinances, the whole code needs to be re-written where entertainment is concerned

follow this link to see the law as wriiten:

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/040/c ... pCtoc.html


Your local reps are Rick Geist, Jerry Stern and Robert Jubilerer, but good luck getting any action out of them.

I've been through this, and if you wanna tilt at windmills go ahead, I'll even offer what support I can but until we can all come together, behind a canidate or an issue we are all willing to actually get up and support and go out and vote for, I don't see much changing

Good luck getting more than lip service

[bassist_25]

I have to echo Vinny's cynicism; we've all been down this road, and it's a dead-end. It's true that special interest groups have a huge say in this country, but it's special interest with huge amounts of capital and a lot of political influence. (Hey, doesn't money = political influence?) Let's face it, musicians are a small demographic compared to the moral majority and religous right.

For this sort of thing to work, you would need musicians, club owners, and most importantly, fans, to respond to the local government. It's like pulling teeth to get people to come to shows, let alone get involve in our political causes.

I hate to sound like a downer here, but sometimes you have to pick and choose your battles. I commend everyone for trying, but until people are willing to get off of their duffs and do something, it's just a waste of time.

[FatVin]

See we do have one thing that the special interests don't and that's a microphone, we can all talk about this at gigs. I carried this banner for a while and nobody followed, if you guys will follow DFMJ03, fine, as long as things get done, but until we all feel like we're affected by it and until we all get committed, nothing's gonna happen

See it's do-able thing, but we have to be willing to do whatever it takes to get it done and that's where we all fall short.

I recognize the rage, I applaud the sentiment but since nobody's actually gonna have paper petitions at gigs, and nobody's organize e-mails to PA house-members and PA senators cause the Republicans don't care and there are no Democrats to speak of hereabouts, this is just another post on Rockpage, even tho this IS an election year and our best chance to get something done til 2006 nobody's gonna actually DO anything

[byndrsn]

Lisa and Jamie,

I have to admit that this is the type of response I expected you to receive. I am not trying to insult or insinuate anything about Vinny or Paul, I have just seen this type of thing so many times.

As I stated in the other thread - it is a hard road to change legislation, but it can be done. If you are truely passionate about this, then with persistance - you can prevail.

During the past 10 years that I have been very involved lobbying to fight the mandatory helmet law and I heard the same type of negative comments from many bikers who used their beliefs as excuses to not get involved in the fight. These bikers are now taking advantage of the freedom that just a small percentage of us fought so hard for. It is actually kind of funny (I have to laugh - else I'll get frustrated). You guys both know what I am talking about here.

Honestly Vinny, I would bet I could get a bill introduced to change this law, but I know that without the power of an organized grass roots effort, the bill would never get out of committee. Blair county legislators are not the only ones that can be persuaded to introduce a new bill - but I will agree that you won't get much more than lip service from the ones in Blair County. True Conservative republicans are against more laws (actually the Libertarian party is even more in favor of less laws), and true Liberal Democrats want more laws to help us take care of ourselves and our children. I'm not trying to generalize either party because not all Republicans are conservative (look at ARlen Spector) or that all Democrates are liberals (look at some of our Dem reps in Cambria County - they are not liberal at all: they are pro-life, pro-gun, against more government control, for lower taxes, etc.)

Let me put in my two cents about this issue. Personally, I wouldn't let my teenage kid perform in bars on a consistent basis. I also have to wonder how many bar owners would want teenage band members in their establishments. But, those are just personal observations. Still, I have to agree with the fight for this issue if the modification to the law would be worded properly: You see, being a conservative, I believe that there are already too many laws that protect us from ourselves and too many laws that imply that parents don't know how to raise their own children. If the law stated that the parents must accompany their kid and would be responsible for "whatever" might happen and both parent and child would be held accountable if the kid snuck a drink or something, then okay.

I completely agree with you, Vinny, about the noise regulations - they are much too strict. I agree with the law that we can't infringe on nearby residents' rights to be free of excessive noise at all hours - but there needs to be some common sense in how the law should be written and how it is enforced.

I also think PLCB has an excessive amount of power - and that is a very bad thing.

And Paul, I'm not trying to insult you here, but you make it sound like you have been down this road, fighting the government and lobbying for issues that you believe in for years - and you are not old enough to have that kind of experience. It is not a dead end road if you can get organized and really keep up the fight. I will use ABATE as an example again - We have a membership of @ 6000 bikers (less than 1% of the number of registered motorcyclists in the state) and we went up against huge insurance corporations, the red cross, the medical industry and many other groups all of who have paid lobbyists and a lot of PAC money. But, we won. It took 25 years of ABATE's existence. It took about a couple of hundred dedicated members never giving up. It took 2 people in Harrisburg that gave their lives to this fight. It took the 500 or so bikers that made the journey to Harrisburg every May. It took a lot of sweat, blood, tears, phone calls, letters, fund raisers, loss of personal time, and much much much more - but we won even though many said it was a dead end road. We Won! Regardless of how you feel about the helmet issue - We Won!! And we did it the right way - we played the legislative game!!

Yeah Vinny, you're right, it is do-able, but how many out there are going to get behind it?
How many bar owners would back us?
I hear a lot of opinions (and a lot of lip service) on this site - but how many would really put up or shut up?
( I wonder how many Rockpage members even read this entire post?)

Urbs

[tonefight]

Took awhile Urbs but I read it !

[bassist_25]

And Paul, I'm not trying to insult you here, but you make it sound like you have been down this road, fighting the government and lobbying for issues that you believe in for years - and you are not old enough to have that kind of experience. It is not a dead end road if you can get organized and really keep up the fight. I will use ABATE as an example again - We have a membership of @ 6000 bikers (less than 1% of the number of registered motorcyclists in the state) and we went up against huge insurance corporations, the red cross, the medical industry and many other groups all of who have paid lobbyists and a lot of PAC money. But, we won. It took 25 years of ABATE's existence. It took about a couple of hundred dedicated members never giving up. It took 2 people in Harrisburg that gave their lives to this fight. It took the 500 or so bikers that made the journey to Harrisburg every May. It took a lot of sweat, blood, tears, phone calls, letters, fund raisers, loss of personal time, and much much much more - but we won even though many said it was a dead end road. We Won! Regardless of how you feel about the helmet issue - We Won!! And we did it the right way - we played the legislative game!!

It's cool, no offense taken.

While I haven't been around as long as most at this board, I have been socially and politically conscious since I was 15 years old. I was talking more along the lines of everytime Vinny would bring up a similar topic, everyone would be like, "Yeah, you're so right man, let's change this" and a week later, no one would care. I definatley applaud your efforts of changing the helmet law; but still, the biker demographic is much more than the professional musician demographic. I still don't think we could mobilize enough people.

Yeah Vinny, you're right, it is do-able, but how many out there are going to get behind it?
How many bar owners would back us?
I hear a lot of opinions (and a lot of lip service) on this site - but how many would really put up or shut up?

And that's exactly the reason I'm so cynical about this.

[byndrsn]

Took awhile Urbs but I read it !

Sorry, I was a bit long winded last night! But I'm glad you read it!!

And Paul, I didn't think you would take offense - and I am glad you didn't!!!!! Yeah, you are right and I understand why you are cynical about this topic. I think it is cool that Vinny has tried this in the past, and I think it is cool that you guys are contemplating it now. I would love to see something come of this. There are a lot of musicians in this state- we would just need to get them involved - but although that would be difficult, the hard part would start after they were involved!!

[lonewolf]

I'd rather see an effort to abolish the PLCB altogether and make PA a "free" state. There is probably more political support for this than to repeal any particular law they enforce. This is an issue that comes before the state legislature from time to time, but lack of popular interest kills it. It has been several years (late 90s?) since I heard about the legislature debating the fate of the gestapo. Face it, they are an engrained political power and its going to take a bigass crowbar to pry them out.

Anybody know of any anti-PLCB organizations?

Sorry, its not good politics to be ANTI-anything.

Call it "PRO-free-market for spirits"

[songsmith]

Regarding the age issue, I'm with Urbs... although in my own experience some band members were indeed underage 20 years ago, I wouldn't support a change to lessen the legal age for musicians. With the benefit of those 20 years, I can see how folks turned out and how the whole situation affected them, and it wasn't good. Playing in bars at age 15 became second nature to one of my best friends, he logged hundreds of hours around the party crowd before age 18, and now has party problems of his own. Another close friend was playing in one of the state's most popular bands at age 14, and the groupie deal wasn't something he was old enough to deal with... he's been married like 4 or 5 times now, in his mid 30's. Of course, everyone likes to think they're too smart for the pitfalls, that they won't get stuck, but everyone's wrong. There are smarts you only get by being on the planet for a certain amount of time, and there's no way around it, so don't reply that you know better. Until you live it, you don't know, and you shouldn't know until you're mature enough to deal with it. Nobody starts out with plans to be an alcoholic, but lots of people are.
That said, on the other issues, like merch sales and "noise" issues, they should leave us the hell alone, or start citing garbagemen for waking me up at 5am, and lawnmowers on Saturday mornings. My $.02, plus applicable PA Sales Tax.------>JMS

[Big Jim]

I've read all of the posts entirely.

I'm not sure that you can compare this effort to the helmet law. For cyclists, ALL who rode were affected by the law requiring helmets. For this cause, only those musicians under 18 years of age are affected. Certainly older musicians can take up the cause for those younger musicians who can't even vote, but don't expect every musician on Rockpage (or every musician in the state) to "support the cause", because there is nothing in it for them personally. And many with childern would not want them in bars at an early age (supervised or not). And there are places for younger musicians to play...anywhere but in an establishment with a license that serves alcohol.

So realistically, the widespread support may not be there for this cause. But for the other issues that have been mentioned, there may be more.

[FatVin]

Great posts, but some of them illustrate what I'm talking about. If the perception is that we are "fighting for our right to party", then government won't take us seriously and the voting public won't take us seriously and rightfully so. We should position ourselves as fighting government over-regulation.

Yes, we play in places where alcohol is served and it is the liquor laws that rule us. Now, liquor in PA is over regulated, but that's NOT the issue we need to be addressing. What we want is the PLCB, i.e, the liquor cops, out of the entertainment business.

That's do-able but we have to be serious about it, we better have a legitimate legislative agenda. The noise laws are an easy target because they are vaugely written and enforced only when it's conveneient.

we can't apeal to the cops because they just enforce whatever laws are written so must target the legislature.

The age laws will not be so easy to combat because most parents feel the way that many of you posted feel but here's the thing...shouldn't parents who feel differently have a choice? right now the government makes that choice for you. I don't like it when government makes choices for me about anything.

That being said the age issue is still an uphill battle and it will be seen as a moral issue and that will bring all manner of political creepy crawlies out of the wood work. The arguement that a kid with his hands on guitar strings is less likely to have his hands on a gun or a bong will be blown out of the water by the first showing of Slash's acceptance speech at the AMA's a few years back (remember that?) or any P-diddy video

in my opinion, it would be much better to concentrate on the noise issue because that affects more musicians and it's an easier sell but we better have a fair and resaonable alternative and we better be as serious and as dedicated as ABATE or this is all just another post on rockpage.

[bassist_25]

Great posts, but some of them illustrate what I'm talking about. If the perception is that we are "fighting for our right to party", then government won't take us seriously and the voting public won't take us seriously and rightfully so. We should position ourselves as fighting government over-regulation.

Right!!! Let's face it, musicians (of any style of music) don't exactly have a squeaky clean image. Niether do bikers, but culture has been more accepting of bikers. More people own bikes than ever. People can turn on the TV and see the Teutals or Jesse James, and people say, "Hey, these guys aren't drunk, meth-induced, women passing, hell raisers like the stereotypes always portrayed". All you have to do is turn on VH-1 and see some musician talking about how many drugs he was on, or how many groupies he snagged.

Yes, we play in places where alcohol is served and it is the liquor laws that rule us. Now, liquor in PA is over regulated, but that's NOT the issue we need to be addressing. What we want is the PLCB, i.e, the liquor cops, out of the entertainment business.

Speaking of liquor being over-regulated; I'm pretty much a free-trade kind of guy, so what's up with liquor stores being state owned?

I don't like it when government makes choices for me about anything.

Agreed. I don't know why more people aren't libertarians on issues.

That being said the age issue is still an uphill battle and it will be seen as a moral issue and that will bring all manner of political creepy crawlies out of the wood work.

Moral issues also get the most press time. Something such as gay marriage is always going to get more face time, than say, a bill about subsidy allotment to small business owners or whatever. I wish people wouldn't make moral crusades out of things that really have no moral impact. This is business to me, plain and simple. Unfortunatley, many people don't see it that way.

The arguement that a kid with his hands on guitar strings is less likely to have his hands on a gun or a bong will be blown out of the water by the first showing of Slash's acceptance speech at the AMA's a few years back (remember that?) or any P-diddy video

Further illustrates my original point.

in my opinion, it would be much better to concentrate on the noise issue because that affects more musicians and it's an easier sell but we better have a fair and resaonable alternative and we better be as serious and as dedicated as ABATE or this is all just another post on rockpage.

Yeppers. The image we also want to project is of small businessmen. (and women ) I perform for legal tender, so I see the PLCB laws the same way a store owner would see major road construction in front of his place of business: a hinderance to his right to make money.

[FatVin]

Well that's one, now We need about 9,999 more people who understand what we are talking about to to take our message to Harrisburg and MAYBE we have a shot.

[FatVin]

Well that's one, now We need about 9,999 more people who understand what we are talking about to to take our message to Harrisburg and MAYBE we have a shot.

[FatVin]

thanks bassist 25, Well that's one, now We need about 9,999 more people who understand what we are talking about to to take our message to Harrisburg and MAYBE we have a shot.

[tom]

If we are going to band together for change, I would rather attack the PLCB.
Nothing against the underage crowd, but lobbying the legislature for REAL changes in PLCB policy, and rules would have a trickle down effect, and could eventually ease the underage issue


Vin, when are you going to run for office ?

[FatVin]

Tom,

I agree attacking the PLCB is the way to go but THE ONLY WAY to do that is through the legislature, the PLCB has the advantage of being the cops and any protest we might wanna make will be seen as rebellion against rightful authority and dismissed,

the way to get to the PLCB is by changing the laws they are supposed to enforce.

A fair noise ordinance would make it possible for us to defend ourselves against the cranky neighbors, the "anonymous" phone calls and others with an axe to grind.

The PLCB is only a bunch of tools, .......er ah.........(pun intended) that is, tools for people with nothing better to do than to cause us musicians and bar owners grief, fair and reasonable laws would change all that, and I agree that there would be a trickle down effect and it woild lead to a lightening up by some of our more zealous enforcment agecies


As for me, running for office,

ROFLMAO
sorry

I'm flattered but just because I don't drink or do drugs now doesn't mean it has aways been that way, in truth, my closet way too much like a medical school, if ya know what I mean. I don't think I could stand that kind of scruitny even at the local level, besides, I'm a common sense moderate, I HATE the extreme right and I don't trust the Left so where am I gonna get money for that kind of thing.

However, if one of you want to run, I'd be happy to write speeches and that kind of thing, lend what wisdom I do have, to the campaign trail.

Ever See "West Wing"? I could be Toby Zeigler.

[tornandfrayed]

I understand your hesitancy to run for office Vinny, but if you were going to consider it, which office do you think would be the one to start with? Which one would you run for? Just out of curiosity....

[FatVin]

That's a no brainer, PA State House, important enough to be bumped to the head of the line at The Outback but not important enough to be able do any real damage all by myself ( Look out Rick Geist)


You're not going anywhere with this are you? I wouldn't really run. . .really.......no fuckin way

[byndrsn]

Sorry Jae (and Lisa),
I could've told you it would be this way. (you should already know that and know that I understand this type of stuff by now).

If you two want, we could sit down (with a couple cold ones) and discuss everything.

I have ideas. I have thoughts. I know what needs to be done and I know how to do it.

I am just very sorry that more musicians are more interested in busting each others balls over politics that they know nothing about than truely getting involved in something that would change their personal lives.

THIS TRULY AMAZES ME!!

How many can say they sat at the capital in any Reps office and had a BS session? How many can say they spent time in the House or Senate during "business" hours? How many can say they had Senators or Reps calling them on their home phone to talk about issues?? I KNOW THAT I CAN SAY ALL OF THAT!!!! I know what it takes, and maybe it takes getting out of the small minded area that we live in - so let's schedule some time (the 3 of us) to discuss what needs to be done, what could be done, and what the possibilities are!!!

(and no - I don't need any of you ((paul or Vinny)) to tell me that it can not be done. It can. I know it!! I've lived it. And----- If you are not part of the solution.. You are part of the problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Urbs

[bassist_25]

Again, I applaud your efforts, but I'm still cynical.

And sorry Tom, the "Problem/Solution" rhetoric never worked on me, because I see things in color, not black and white.