Bass-related question to the gents and ladies of RP

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Saturday Dec 22, 2007

I really wasn't sure if this thread should go into the tech sector, but I think that it would benefit more from general discussion.

Last night, I saw my bro of the low, Kent "Grimmbass" Tonkin. Often, the discussion that Kent and I get into when we see each other is whether there is a general disrespect - or as I see it, a general misunderstanding - of bass guitar in terms of live sound reinforcement.

This isn't a post slagging sound engineers, as evidenced by my posts here at RP, I have the utmost respect for pro engineers. I'm real fortunate in that I normally work with an engineer who pumps the bass, and I could literally walk into a gig with my bass and a DI box and be loud enough to hear myself without a rig or bass in my wedge. Unfortunately, sometimes we're not so lucky. I'm sure everyone here, regardless of the instrument that they play, has dealt with a poor mix, whether using house support or just running a vocal PA. I honestly believe that proper technique is the most important tool for a bass player to cut through a mix, but you still need a good starting mix to be able to convey that musicality to the audience.

Case in point, I saw a very talented player last week at a venue notorious for not having the most bass-friendly house mixes. The cat has very clean technique and good tone. Judging from his stage tone, the engineer could have left him relatively flat at the board, with some minor tweaks to compensate for the FOH speakers, and the bass should have cut through fine. Unfortunately, I could barely hear the bass other than a rumble, which was a shame because the cat was laying down some sweet lines.

I've told Kent that I don't think it's really a prejudice against bass. I just think that many people, including some engineers, don't understand the instrument. Some people think "bass" is the tone of the instrument. Bass is actually the register of the instrument. 1k and 3k are very pertinent to bass guitar, and I think that some people don't understand that. I don't pretend to be an engineer, but I know that you need those frequencies to give bass guitar presence in a mix, especially now when you have high-gain guitar amps thrown in there like Mesas and VHTs.

Again, hope I didn't step on any toes with this thread; that wasn't my intention. I also wasn't trying to be "know-it-all." I just know a good bass mix when I hear and wanted to chat with you cats about it. What are everyone's thoughts? Bass players? Engineers? Other musicians? I'm interested in hearing what you think.

Also, major props to the engineers out there who really get good bass mixes. Zilly, Greg Stager, and Tom from F19 are three cats who come to mind who always have good bass mixes.

MeYatch · Post by **MeYatch** » Saturday Dec 22, 2007

people that crank the frequencies below human hearing (about 35 Hz and lower) on bass, kick, any other instrument, or the whole mix, should be shot. There, I said it. Stop destroying people's hearing without them even knowing it!

RamRod 1 · Post by **RamRod 1** » Saturday Dec 22, 2007

I could barely hear the bass other than a rumble

I concur. People sometimes say that they like to "Feel" the Bass but I'd rather "Hear" the bass. In other words I like to be able to hear the notes and melody lines that the bass player's playing.

Think about driving in traffic and hearing someone's car stereo with subwoofers too loud rumbeling up behind you and you can't even make out what song it is.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Saturday Dec 22, 2007

Great topic Paul. I notice in my rig when I use my jazz bass I need to pull it up around 1k to get the sound I want but the tones my amp delivers I just flat line the mix on the board. I mix for some other bands at differant times when I would mention to a bassist what to pull up or cut on his rig because of it sending a some bad frequecies and not being able to clear it up in a mix. I noticed some people really punching a bass around 80 - 125 and it getting lost with a kick drum. my point is the upper frequencies are very important on getting a good sound and mix on a bass.

bsaller · Post by **bsaller** » Saturday Dec 22, 2007

I'm not a bass player, but I do mix. You guys are right on! 2.2 Khz gives you string attack on a bass. While I'm at it a lot of mixers don't like to use the 80-100 hz roll-off switches on the mixer. Most pros roll off these freq's for everything but the bass, bass drum and keys. Cleans up the sound very nicely.

boot-man · Post by **boot-man** » Sunday Dec 23, 2007

as a sound guy i agree. some guys don't realize the impact of little or no bass guitar in the mix. what makes it easy for me is i play bass. so i make sure the bass is kickin ass.

whitedevilone · Post by **whitedevilone** » Sunday Dec 23, 2007

You and Kent talked Bass?I won't believe it!

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Sunday Dec 23, 2007

RamRod 1 wrote:
I could barely hear the bass other than a rumble
I concur. People sometimes say that they like to "Feel" the Bass but I'd rather "Hear" the bass. In other words I like to be able to hear the notes and melody lines that the bass player's playing.

Think about driving in traffic and hearing someone's car stereo with subwoofers too loud rumbeling up behind you and you can't even make out what song it is.

One of the most absurd set ups I've ever seen was a set of sub woofers sitting in front of Hubert Sumlin, an 80 yrold blues player. Why was there a need to "feel" the base and kick drum???? If you listen to old Howlin Wolfe and Muddy Watters recordings, the bass was heard but nowhere near body blasting loud.

I guess I'm an old 60's and 70's rock and blues guy who appreciates bass playing (one of my favorite is John Entwistle), but not this body shaking sub woofer mix I find in sooo many set ups today. Give me old school mixes. Take the mix on the Allman Brothers Live at the Fillmore and try to get that sound. Every instrument and voice is heard clearly.

grimmbass · Post by **grimmbass** » Sunday Dec 23, 2007

Paul,

Great post...I can only hope to have 1/100th of the wisdom and influence of Old Skool!

That being said, I think that sound engineers are often stuck in a mindset for a certain kind of music, which they apply to ALL bands they mix. For example, a sound guy who mixes primarily two guitar rock bands may not realize the importance of adding bass to the mix with a one-guitar group. The bottom line (pardon the pun) is that someone has to fill space. I've occassionally convinced non-bass-friendly sound guys to crank me up by pointing out that I'm filling in for an absent second guitar.

I've also coped with the problem by packing enough power (and headroom) to run completely on stage volume if necessarry (much to my eardrums' dismay). It sucks to have to blow away my (and my bandmates') hearing on stage, but we've all been there.

I think some of the problem also lies with us bassists as well, at least when it comes to finding a place sans rhythm guitar. Bassists in one-guitar bands have to find ways to fill space while still holding the bottom line. Often times, sound guys may not want to crank up someone who's only cranking out root eights on a cover that is lacking a live rhythm guitar. It is sometimes necessary to change our bass lines (or overall playing approach) in order to create parts that are vital and filling to the song, thereby claiming a bigger piece of the musical pie.

Case in point: Lies Inc covers "the Diary of Jane" by Breaking Ben. In order to make up for the lack of rhthym guitar, I play with a pick and use a split clean/distorted sound. The end result sounds pretty close to the original two-guitar version (if I do say so myself!).

I love being the only rhythm player on stage in both Grimm and Lies, as it is a constant challenge to come up with good parts while having the freedom of movement as a full-fledged instrument within each band. Bass "rumble" is cool, but it's not really the musical part of the experience. I agree with Paul's comment that highs and mids are a big part of the equation. "Thud" tone works for Adam Clayton, but there is life beyond the left side of a graphic eq!

BTW...Scotty...how's that Carvin V working out? I have Otto actually consiering a V3 head since he's heard my B1200 rig!

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Sunday Dec 23, 2007

Great thread! The "teenage riceburner" mix is a pet peeve here, too. Bass and volume are two areas where quantity usually wins out over quality. I'll take a tight mix any day.

bassist4life2004 · Post by **bassist4life2004** » Sunday Dec 23, 2007

One thing i cant stand these days is when i go out to a club and hear a band that has a bass sound like its being played through a tin cup, a very twangy sound to it. I believe that my favorite bass sound that ive ever heard live (locally) was til december. The bass was really deep and it was the power behind everything. I may not be a bassist anymore, but being a musician i can appreciate it when a bass has just that low enough frequency where it makes your gut rumble a little bit. It ultimately has everything to do with what kind of music you are into weather it be punk, jazz, rock, or metal, but its definitely nicer when the bass is a low, powerful driving force, and not made to have the twangy nature of a low tuned banjo.

From my experience with being in a band with Mitch, he's very good at finding the happy medium between making the bass distinct in a song, and keeping it low at the same time. We have our own PA, and by no means have the capability to run the lows like a thunderstorm, but the lows are definitely where they need to be 90% of the time for the types of music we play.

MeYatch · Post by **MeYatch** » Sunday Dec 23, 2007

yeah, I don't think anyone's underestimating the importance of lows in mixing a bass guitar. Its just that a lot of bass players and sound men think that bass guitar should be all low register and nothing else. I can get into most player's sounds, as long as I can hear whats going on.

I just hate when the bass player sounds like "I can't hold onto my beer, its shaking"

rickw · Post by **rickw** » Sunday Dec 23, 2007

Having the privelege to play with Mr. Kent I know he's extremely passionate about music, his sound, and his rig. I know Bassist is too. It's all for not sometimes because I really think the tone definition of the bass is lost on some sound guys. It seems to be the last instrument focused on for some reason. I recently heard a band that had excellent players and voices. A bad mix killed it for me, and by the way the sound guy was too busy making out with his girlfriend to pay much attention to the band, let alone a bass guitar that sounded all thump. Lately I've been very fortunate to work with excellent sound techs that really care and know about the whole sound of a band.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Sunday Dec 23, 2007

All good points, guys. I also dug Til December's bass player's tone. He had that fret-click thing like Fieldy from Korn has, but I kind of dug it with him. It's not my bag, but it worked for him. I think he used some sort of 8x10s loaded with aluminum drivers, but I don't think they were Hartkes. His FOH signal was probably DIed before his cabs anyways, so I guess it doesn't really matter. Anyhoo...

I actually like that twangy bass sound. It's that 2k that I think makes the bass have presence in the mix. Some cats don't like horns in bass cabs, but gimme horn and LOTS of it. But that's what comes down to the subjective taste in tone and all of that good stuff.

Kent brought up a good point about sometimes having to modify bass lines to make things sound bigger. I've actually learned that sometimes it's best to keep things more simple. I had those days when I tried to cram 34,987,219 notes into every bar. I've seen a lot of cats just play some really tasteful stuff and lock into the pocket with the drummer; that's really what makes the rythmn section sound huge, in my opinion. Strange enough, another thing I've seen bands do to make their sound huge is to add vocals. It's amazing how much a few "Ahhhs" or "Oooohs" under a chorus can make it sound big with a sparse instrumentally arrangement.

I think another thing that goes with how well the bass - and also kick drum - sounds in a mix, whether a full FOH supported gig or just running sound from a stage rig, is how tight and fast reponding the notes are. Nothing kills a mix, in my opinion, quicker than a flabby bass guitar or kick drum. There is just so much that goes into this, starting with the player's technique, to the quality of the instrument, to the age of the strings, to the amount of compression on the mix, to the quality of drivers in the cabs. That's why Kent is such a die-hard fan of 15s in bass cabs.

I like a lot of punch with the fast transients.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Sunday Dec 23, 2007

MeYatch wrote:yeah, I don't think anyone's underestimating the importance of lows in mixing a bass guitar. Its just that a lot of bass players and sound men think that bass guitar should be all low register and nothing else. I can get into most player's sounds, as long as I can hear whats going on.

I just hate when the bass player sounds like "I can't hold onto my beer, its shaking"

Bingo!!!

I like a bass sound that is, as I call it, "three dimensional." That's what I dig so much about all of the Eden gear I hear. It has those tight and focused lows that can rumble the floors, but the mids and highs aren't sacrificed in the name of rumble. Also, the transients are superfast, so if you're playing something at 200 bmp or doing some tapping, the notes are being sounded when you actually play them.

One thing I've noticed with lower end drives is that the lows and low-mids "mush" into each other and you get this really muddy low end that doesn't have much definition.