Looking for knowledge...

[Killjingle]

There is a band that I know of that has some really good songwriting skills but it seems like they are always out of tune. I have mentioned it to someone in the band that between the dual guitars and the bass someone is kiiling the music IMHO. He told me that he wasnt in the position to tell someone their gear was out of whack, and that he didnt understand the terminology.

I was then told by another member that its what help this band define its sound. Isnt E an E? Its like 1/4 to 1/2 step different in all open notes, chords, all songs. I think its between the guitars but I cant quite grasp it. I thought it was one of the basic rules to try and keep everyone in tune with another in this traditional setting.

My stupid question is... is there a genre of music that intentionally sets their guitars up out of tune? No punk jokes here either. Most punk guys didnt own a tuner, or just played hard or played junk... these guys are using digital tuners that I can see to get set up but I dont think they are intonated properly.

help please...

I think if they would get back "in tune" they could actually be really good.

[DrumAndDestroy]

hmm...even us punkers can make guitar sound ok without tuners (keep in mind bad relgion didn't own a tuner until the stranger than fiction album)

i know what you're trying to say...but i don't know the terminology either. at some point, someone will hear these guys who knows the terminology...and some egos will indeed be crushed.

maybe these guys just suck?

[Killjingle]

maybe these guys just suck

I dont think this is the case. They are over the top for sure; but they have a very good following. The things that are troublesome to my ears dont seem to bother the crowd at all. And it never changes... they are always tuned this way. I will give them an A+ for being consistent.

[onegunguitar]

Yea,a guitar out of intonation excessively will sound like ass when chording,esp. up around the 12th fret area. I can't answer your question Chad, but I would like to think that they are trying to stay in tune w/ each other! Haha,but then again it might be the new thing coming out,dual guitars tuned a step apart with the bass tuned down a half step!!My ears hurt just thinking about it.

BTW Chad,I did buy that Monster Pro 2500(rackmount)hopefully it gets here before our Pittsburgh show. Thanks for letting me know about them,my Boogie will ever be greatful!

[Killjingle]

I have a theory on whats wrong; but I was more curious if there is actually a genre of music that is really this dissonant or dischordant? Can this truly be intentional?

[DrumAndDestroy]

I have a theory on whats wrong; but I was more curious if there is actually a genre of music that is really this dissonant or dischordant? Can this truly be intentional?

You never know...are these younger guys and/or gals who are just wet behind the ears on all of the tech stuff?

Might be one of those things where they'll just learn as they go...

[Banned]

I have a theory on whats wrong; but I was more curious if there is actually a genre of music that is really this dissonant or dischordant? Can this truly be intentional?

The closest thing I can think of is the noise rock technique of having two or more strings tuned in unison but not quite in tune to each other. It gives this weird sickly chorused sound. It's usually associated with Sonic Youth and Big Black. More recently I've heard it in early Foo Fighters and Trail of Dead.

Then there's Joey Santiago's annoy-o-matic out of tune unison bends. Those are intentional, the bastard.

I had this problem for a while by accident. My pedal tuner has adjustable calibration, and it must have gotten bumped or punk'd. The tuner said I was good, but it didn't mesh with the other guitar and bass. We finally found that if I used their tuners, everything was good. A quick reset of my tuner to 440 fixed everything.

[Killjingle]

It gives this weird sickly chorused sound

I would say that would be one way of describing it. There isnt enough feedback to call it a noise band though...

[bassist_25]

Guitars and basses are tempered instruments, so technically they are slightly out of tune as you go further up the neck, even if electronic tuners say that they're in tune and in intonation.

As far as generes of music that are purposely out of tune - Well, the no-wave stuff like Sonic Youth that Jimi talked about comes to mind. Of course, Thurston Moore is a fucking genuis and all of that "noise" is carefully calculated. I do know that purposely out of tune instruments have been used in the recording studio to achieve a certain effect. The bass in Rage Against the Machine's Bulls on Parade is slightly out of tune to help define the song. It's also been an old recording technique, before the days of Auto-Tune, to either speed up or slow down the recording if a vocalist is having trouble hitting a part. Anytime that was done, it changed the pitch of the instrumentation. Of course, the music was still all in tune with itself, and the only person who would know would be someone with perfect pitch. I've stumbled upon that technique many times when I had to learn a song and found out that the key it's in is more sharp than a perfect E but more flat than a perfect F.

[Killjingle]

I hate to ask the guys; I dont wanna come off as a dick. To me if they fixed "the problem" I think they would sound pretty slick. I have a real tough time listening to it... not because I dont like the songs; but because I cant quit listening to the tuning. I will prob mix for them again multiple times in the future so I need to fig out how to handle this...

[MeYatch]

tell them they are out of tune.

[Killjingle]

and then they tune and its the same way that it already sounds... really dissonant

maybe I should grab them all and take them to Terrys or something and have them all get a checkup...

[Killjingle]

trust me; Im not trying to ask a rhetoric question.

[MeYatch]

tell them their instruments sound like shit.

I don't understand what the big offense is. If they are purposesly trying to sound really dissonant, then they will tell you that. If they don' tknow how to set up an instrument maybe you can direct them to someone that does. If it sounds as bad as you say it does, and they can't hear it, they probably aren't going very far anyway.

[metalchurch]

Are you talking about Fedup?
Just wonderin' I don't wanna name names or anything, but I heard shit about them.
Might be ok now that the Don is out of the band.










I'm fuckin' kidding guys! I couldn't resist!

[DrumAndDestroy]

Are you talking about Fedup?
Just wonderin' I don't wanna name names or anything, but I heard shit about them.
Might be ok now that the Don is out of the band.










I'm fuckin' kidding guys! I couldn't resist!

haha joe...i didn't scroll down right away. i was like "oh wow".

i thought you might have had some insight on the problem though...i was checking RP often today to get your wisdom...

[alfred]

if that was me playing i would want to be told.

[P MAC]

As a sound tech myself, I have found that my role is not neccessarily to coach or manage the bands I mix. There is a fine line that one must be careful not to cross. You may "help" yourself right out of a job. If the band asks for my help or opinion, I am more willing to venture in that direction. If your subtle efforts have not resulted in a significant change, it is likely that the players in the band are unaware of or don't believe there is a problem. If the situation is bothersome enough to you, a full frontal assault may be your only choice short of choosing not to work with them any more.
I have turned down work with a few bands because no matter how good my equipment and skills as a tech; I cannot craft a silk purse from a sows ear. Good luck!

[bassist_25]

As a sound tech myself, I have found that my role is not neccessarily to coach or manage the bands I mix. There is a fine line that one must be careful not to cross. You may "help" yourself right out of a job. If the band asks for my help or opinion, I am more willing to venture in that direction. If your subtle efforts have not resulted in a significant change, it is likely that the players in the band are unaware of or don't believe there is a problem. If the situation is bothersome enough to you, a full frontal assault may be your only choice short of choosing not to work with them any more.
I have turned down work with a few bands because no matter how good my equipment and skills as a tech; I cannot craft a silk purse from a sows ear. Good luck!

Those are all good points, though I suppose it depends on the situation of the sound engineer. Anyone who plays at Pellegrine's and doesn't have their shit together is going to hear about it from Terry Sprankle. Actually, I always say that more bands should play there so they can get a reality check from Terry. Likewise, our normal engineer has little patience for people who don't have their shit together and has reamed guitarists for scooping their mids and drummers for not being tuned.

I think that the important thing is having a good professional engineer whom you have an outstanding relationship with. I've been told by engineers that my stage volume is too loud, my bass sounds muddy, or that I'm out of tune. I like getting that feedback; you can't let your ego be so fragile that you can't handle some honest constructive feedback from someone with musical credibility, especially if you want to be a success at this thing. In my experience, engineers are the most honest people in this business. The veterans have mixed everyone from national acts to garage bands; I hold their opinions in utmost esteem.