Playing Out But Not Getting Paid What You Agreed Upon

bornandthebeanstalk1 · Post by **bornandthebeanstalk1** » Tuesday Nov 13, 2007

Is there a pay scale everyone knows about?
Do bars often not pay out full ammount?
If a bar doesnt pay full ammount should we still play there?
please soemone let me know

MeYatch · Post by **MeYatch** » Tuesday Nov 13, 2007

I think the musicians union has set pay scales, but I've never heard anyone around here say anything about the musicians union.

Other than that, bands get paid based on their drawing power, more or less.

Normally if you have an agreement to get paid a certain amount, I'd be pretty pissed off if we didn't get paid that amount.
However, just ask yourself, the fact that you are asking about it must mean you aren't sure.

If you told the bar owner you expected 200 fans to show up, and that was why they booked you, and only 3 guys were in the whole bar, then you probably don't deserve the agreed on amount.

BDR · Post by **BDR** » Wednesday Nov 14, 2007

It happens ... thing is, you have to qualify each situation. Did things work out the way you thought they would with regard to crowd size? Do you ever want to play at the venue again? Is getting the full amount that particular night worth the possibility of never playing the venue again?

Over the years, we've given this club a break and that club a break for low crowd turnout. We've also been short changed a few times (and not paid at all on one occasion) on nights where the place was jam packed — JP can vouch for that last one — **coughClubCarcough**.

If you feel a room is worth your time investment, then you need to accept the lower amount sometimes, keeping in mind that you're there to help the club owner prosper. As MeYatch touched upon, If you're pissed because they agreed to pay you $X but you only had seven people in the house all night so they paid you $Y, then IMO you have to re-examine your business strategy.

If you aren't willing to work with club owners in certain situations, you will have a rough time in the scene.

r:>)

tonefight · Post by **tonefight** » Wednesday Nov 14, 2007

How many times has this topic come up in the last 5 years ?

Its a tough subject that different musicians feel different about. However the botom line is : Did your band make the bar anymore money than they would have made if they didn't have a band ? I always liked to feel like we earned what we made, I never liked having a bad night and knowing the bar didn't make out. I have twice voluntarily taken a cut to keep things on good terms. The downside is when you really have a good night the bar owners don't always wanna give you extra ( although some will ). I suggest bands worry about building a following then worry about money.

EyesOfAnguishbassist · Post by **EyesOfAnguishbassist** » Wednesday Nov 14, 2007

tonefight wrote: I suggest bands worry about building a following then worry about money.

That hits the nail on the head right there. If you don't bring anyone to make the venue money then the venue isnt worried about paying you, thats what your there for.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thursday Nov 15, 2007

There are times when things do not work out the way you hope, as Tonefight said taking a cut to stay on good terms somtime has to be done. I had a few times over the years that I could tell that its going to be a bad night and so can the club owner and I would speek to the band members and to the club owner after the first set and we would agree to somthing as far as a price and maybe an early quit if things didnt pick up. I can count on one hand how many times in the years I played that I had to do that but it kept things on good terms with the club and we would booked back and all was fine. Somtimes it can be a bad night due to many reasons

DirtySanchez · Post by **DirtySanchez** » Thursday Nov 15, 2007

If it was dead, Suck it up and accept it for what it was.

If it was packed, A) Steal their neon beer signs/cool memorabilia/anything that isn't nailed down on the way out. Just don't get caught.

Plus take a dump in the urinal.

Or B) if you don't have the balls to do that, just tell everyone thats what you wanted to do, then go home, cry a little bit, get it out of your system, and book shows elsewhere.

Most people go with option b then make a thread on RP about it.

BDR · Post by **BDR** » Thursday Nov 15, 2007

DirtySanchez wrote:Plus take a dump in the urinal.

This sounds like a job for the Hardly Boys ...

r:>)

floodcitybrass · Post by **floodcitybrass** » Thursday Nov 15, 2007

FYI - The union is the AFM and the union wages are not impressive. Its something like $12 per hour or so in the Local 41 in the Johnstown area. I'm sorry to say that the union does not really do much for me or my band. Its not really geared towards rock bands (although it used to really help rock bands years ago). Most of the members in it play woodwind, brass, strings, orchestra percussion, or are jazz musicians.
We are much better off booking jobs outside of the union contracts. Alot of the old timers around here have quit the union because they don't like the way things are run. The main gripe that I hear of is that there is some hypocracy when it comes to playing with non union members. That is, certain musicians may get in trouble for playing with non union members where other musicians that violate the same policy are left alone and go unpunished.
I am still in the union to play those occasional high school musicals.

As for your money issues...
A band is still a business, so treat it like one. Get the terms/contract/agreement up front. Decide if your band is working on a flat rate or on commission. Decide who gets the door too. If you work on a flat rate, don't excpect a bonus if you pack place and vice versa.

stratobastard27 · Post by **stratobastard27** » Thursday Nov 15, 2007

I've found that it works well to book for a small flat rate plus the door. Our average is 150 to 200 + the door. Bar mgmt has overall been really receptive to the idea. If the night tanks, well, at least you have gas money. If it's great, you had a great night PLUS gas money. We're making about 600 bucks a night at this deal, and the bar only has to fork over what they'd pay a really popular DJ. And we're stealing gigs from DJ's. How can you complain about that? As far as the changing the agreed amount, dude, it happens. Roll with it. It's usually not worth going on a big tirade about it.

DrumAndDestroy · Post by **DrumAndDestroy** » Thursday Nov 15, 2007

DirtySanchez wrote:If it was dead, Suck it up and accept it for what it was.

If it was packed, A) Steal their neon beer signs/cool memorabilia/anything that isn't nailed down on the way out. Just don't get caught.

Plus take a dump in the urinal.

Or B) if you don't have the balls to do that, just tell everyone thats what you wanted to do, then go home, cry a little bit, get it out of your system, and book shows elsewhere.

Most people go with option b then make a thread on RP about it.

Maybe option C...tell your friends and everyone in your band how your'e gonna do option A, but when it comes time to do it, just sit at the bar and drink a beer and think of how badass you would be if you did it. then slip out the door all slyly and go home. then talk more about how you're gonna "do something about it.'' THEN make a thread on RP

As for taking a dump in the Urinal...I'll save that for the Olive Garden. My ex girlfriend works there.

Post by **Ron** » Thursday Nov 15, 2007

stratobastard27 wrote:And we're stealing gigs from DJ's.

SWEET!

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Thursday Nov 15, 2007

stratobastard27 wrote: And we're stealing gigs from DJ's. How can you complain about that?

That is fucking awesome!!! Now if only we could come up with a way to steal gigs from kareoke stars.

I suppose that I really don't have any more to add to the discussion except that one thing I love about this music thing is that there are no free rides. We live in an area where nepotism determines employment more than skill or education, so it's nice for there to be something that actually rewards hard work, quality, and dedication. In my experience, most local club owners are fair, and I've only come across a very minute amount of owners whom I don't care for on a personal level. You have to realize that they are in this to be successful. Sometimes you have to take a hit in the short term to win out in the long term.

In the words of this guy who wears glasses, talks about the awesomeness of bluegrass music, and works at Music Emporium: "You gotta pay your dues."

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Thursday Nov 15, 2007

Yeah, that's what it is. I LOVE the $150-$200 plus the door idea. You'd have to really compete, which would suck, but the payoff would be pretty satisfying.---->JMS

stratobastard27 · Post by **stratobastard27** » Friday Nov 16, 2007

Sorry, Johnny, I didn't quite follow your last comment.

ToonaRockGuy · Post by **ToonaRockGuy** » Friday Nov 16, 2007

floodcitybrass wrote:A band is still a business, so treat it like one. Get the terms/contract/agreement up front. Decide if your band is working on a flat rate or on commission. Decide who gets the door too. If you work on a flat rate, don't excpect a bonus if you pack place and vice versa.

Agreed, FCB, however, in Altoona, if you go somewhere to book your band with a contract/agreement paper, you're going to get laughed at. Unless you are in managed band (Media 5/Pegasus-type bands), you have no chance of getting booked with a rider or contract of any kind. Bar owners want the option of paying you less if you don't draw. Verbal agreements are pretty much the rule of thumb around these parts.

ToonaRockGuy · Post by **ToonaRockGuy** » Friday Nov 16, 2007

BadDazeRob wrote:
DirtySanchez wrote:Plus take a dump in the urinal.
This sounds like a job for the Hardly Boys ...

r:>)

Ohhhh, I think I'm getting a clue!

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Sunday Nov 18, 2007

stratobastard27 wrote:Sorry, Johnny, I didn't quite follow your last comment.

Sorry, dude. I was referring to bassist_25's last comment about paying dues. I try not to write the words, "pay your dues" too often, because I don't want to discourage someone who's in the " I have a dream, and I'm gonna make it big" phase of their career.
My own experience is that paying your musical dues is not just how you achieve your dream, but that the process of paying dues is more important than even the dream. Look at the most "successful" artist you love. Has he been 100% happy with his success? Usually, no. What I take from that is that the journey is far more important than the destination, and the journey consists of working and learning and sacrificing... and playing a lot. Those are the things that truly matter, not record sales. For instance: There's a local guy named Randy Rutherford. When you compare him to say, C.C. Deville from Poison, there's no real comparison. C.C's played on giant stages, had hundreds of women, sold millions of records, hell, everybody know who he is. Most local musicians would agree, C.C. Deville couldn't carry Randy Rutherford's guitar case. C.C. doesn't know that, but I do. Success is a subjective thing.

To get back to the point, getting screwed out of cash is not a rare thing, it happens to musicians all the time. You deal with it, and move on. As musicians, we try to do our best to deliver a good show, but bar owners aren't there to give you a place to play, they're there to make money. The more money they give you, the less they keep for themselves. Believe me, lots of them want to keep YOUR money, too. That's why I don't put on a show for the bar owners. I try to entertain the audience. If someone bones me on pay, I just take my audience somewhere else. If you don't have much of an audience, PAY YOUR DUES, and little by little, you'll get one. Funny how that all ties together.

Oh, and I meant that getting $200 plus the door would be a good motivation for an act to make sure they bring fans with them. There'd be some competition for the fans, but that's a good thing. The end result would be that the harder you work, the more money you make. That's the American Way.----->JMS

stratobastard27 · Post by **stratobastard27** » Monday Nov 19, 2007

Ok, now I gotcha. Yeah, I really dig the 200+door deal. We're still a rookie band around here (even though I'm the baby with 10 + years live band experience) and we're doing really well for ourselves. We played our first show April 1 and we're pretty sufficiently drawing 60-80 people. Which for Cumberland, MD is not too shabby. I think the whole idea works pretty well for bar owners too, since they're not out too damn much whatever the crowd. If anyone wants to try this in Altoona, I highly recommend it. Just MAKE DAMN GOOD AND SURE you have a guy YOU TRUST who will reliably watch the door for you every time. The wives/gf's tend not to enjoy having their ass planted on a chair at the front door for the first two sets of the night. About 2 months ago we found our permanent door guy, and our payday at the end of the night went up about 50 bucks on average now that the bar employee isn't collecting. Imagine that.

witchhunt · Post by **witchhunt** » Monday Nov 19, 2007

songsmith wrote:
stratobastard27 wrote:Sorry, Johnny, I didn't quite follow your last comment.
I try not to write the word, "Jehovah" too often,

He said it again. He said it again. Stone him.

Possessed · Post by **Possessed** » Monday Nov 19, 2007

I agree that getting your own door person is the right idea.
I know Rennis probably lost about $50 to $100 every night we didn't bring our own doorman to certain venues.
One time we actually counted how many people were in the venue and figured out how much we should make on a $5 cover.
We were playing for the door only so we wanted to make sure we got what was coming to us. Now the gig in question wasn't a packed house but we did count 60 or so people and figured we should make around $300 for the night. Well when the employee/doorman gave us $200 we were like OK next time we're bringing our own door person.
Wouldn't you know it... The next gig we made a lot more at the door the turnout wasn't much better than the previous gig either. Also the venue was pissed because we brought our own doorperson who counted the people as they came in and wrote it down. They knew they were skimming the door and they didn't like it that we got wise to them.

We also told all the other bands in our area about this. Most of them started bringing their own door person. The other bands started noticing they were getting ripped before they started bringing a door person.

Oh well it's not like it's that big of a deal but it is good to know these things before you get ripped.
Also you could even work it out with the venue. If you don't bring a lot of people the venue gets a cut of the door or something like that. Some if not most clubs will work with you on that kind of stuff. Especially if you are a new band and you are good. Most club owners have seen enough bands to know if you are good or not. Some even understand that it takes time to build a following for a new band.
Another key is to ask as many questions as you can when booking a new venue. Ask if they charge for using their sound system that they take off the top of the revenue from the door. If you think they may charge you for anything including drinks... Ask about it.

stratobastard27 · Post by **stratobastard27** » Tuesday Nov 20, 2007

Using the bar's sound system is not a problem around here. There's simply no such thing. Ask Hairforce. The Roadhouse is the best venue around here. Not so much as a speaker on sticks with a mixer head rig.

Merge · Post by **Merge** » Wednesday Nov 21, 2007

Stratobastard27 is right. In house sound systems don't exist in our area.

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Wednesday Nov 21, 2007

Well, there was that one sound system "on the edge of town." When the clubowner tried to get my band to play for $150, he said it was little money, but we'd get to play through a large, professional PA. I knew it was a large, professional PA, because it was originally Thin Ice's large, professional PA... our sound guy sold it to him! I had already played through it many, many times. Color me unimpressed.

--->JMS