George Bush, Arrogant prick or Demon from Hell?
Plus, you gotta wonder why the pictures of Americans hanging from a bridge didn't get as much reaction. That was just a few weeks ago, and you hear nothing about it. To this day, the dragging of a soldier's body through the streets of Mogadishu, Somalia still reverberates in my mind, and still pisses me off. Where was the righteous indignation then? We could have stopped that whole scenario with a single MOAB... there'd have been warlords soiling their designer-label jeans for a hundred mile radius, and the towel-heads would have thought twice about dumping airplanes into American buildings a decade later. I know... shoulda-coulda-woulda.--------->JMS
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RobTheDrummer
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The problem is that we are trying to fight a politically correct war. If we keep it up, well never win another war.......period. There is no room for PC in a war. I like Michael Savage's idea for Fallusia or however you spell it. Drop leaflets in arabic giving the citizens three days to get out of town, then bomb the hell out of and steam roll it with dozers. Find every last scum in the city from where they are hiding and make sure they are toast. Then help them rebuild the city the way it should be, just like we did in WW2. You either kill them, or they kill you. There is no negotiating with terrorists and the like, they want to see us dead. They are born and raised to hate us and we need to stop it before we are all gone. Just think about what could happen if a nuclear bomb went off in Times Square? We have to be proactive and not reactive. Another 911 is out of the question. This is why we have to take the fight over there. Put a democracy smack dab in the middle of the middle east. It will only spread when other countries see how freedom looks.
I'm not completely sure democracy is what they want, or even that it would work there. What they want is theocracy, based in Islam. Democracy works here because from the get-go we are educated, and we know that we have a choice. They have never been educated, except for the upper class, and they are told that the only choice is Allah. It would be like if all public schools were Catholic. Or if Jerry Falwell were elected president. I think they're comfortable with not having a choice... it's all they know, and a lack of education only strengthens that attitude. Of course a certain class of Arab people ARE indeed educated... the rich... and they need to stay in power to stay rich. It comes back to human nature, greed, and the haves vs. the have-nots.
If we left Iraq now, the entire area would implode politically and financially. If the world didn't run on their oil, i'd be happy to let that happen. What do you think?------>JMS
If we left Iraq now, the entire area would implode politically and financially. If the world didn't run on their oil, i'd be happy to let that happen. What do you think?------>JMS
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bassist_25
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Jerry Falwell as President, I shudder just thinking about that. Michael Savage is a piece of fucking shit who's no better than Bin Laden. His hatred of people just for being "Red Diaper Doper Babies" or whatever, makes him no better than the terrorist themselves. But I am a big 1st amendment supporter so "insert cliche Voltaire quote"
Is the Middle East ready for democracy? Maybe I'm cynical, but I don't think they are for the reasons stated in the above post. Still, a democracy in Iraq wouldn't nessecarly be a bad thing. We just have to be careful that it isn't just a puppet state. (which could very well happen)
Is the Middle East ready for democracy? Maybe I'm cynical, but I don't think they are for the reasons stated in the above post. Still, a democracy in Iraq wouldn't nessecarly be a bad thing. We just have to be careful that it isn't just a puppet state. (which could very well happen)
"He's the electric horseman, you better back off!" - old sKool making a reference to the culturally relevant 1979 film.
Oh, I agree that democracy would be the best thing for the region... I don't want to sound like I'm against it, I just don't see it happening without the Arab world seeing the USA as forcing it. Let's face it, there's nothing we can do short of dissolving the United States that will appease them. They get their view of us from the media and they think we're all like Michael Jackson, rich, lazy and morally bankrupt.---->JMS
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RobTheDrummer
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Ok, It's better to get a democracy going instead of doing absolutely nothing about it. If you never try, it will never happen. Sometimes when trying to get to peace, you must first use a little strength. If you look at it, Afghanistan is doing pretty good now, women aren't being supressed. Children can go to real schools. People are better off now that ever. The Taliban is gone from governing.
I believe the Iraqi people want to be free, but you will never see that from the biased media. You hear it from the soldiers and you saw it a few times at the beginning of the war. After that, an election year came up and, oops...we can't show anything good now. We don't want another R in the office...but anyway, these people were tortured and supressed for many many years. Saddam was far from an Islamic ruler, he was a secularist and governed in his own interests. That is why he was so bad in the first place. The people should have the right to religion, the same as we do. The people in Iraq were not governed under religion like many other ME countries. They were just living without freedom or hope, they were scared to do a lot of things that we consider freedoms. When people are governed under religion, that's where it goes wrong. That's why we have Seperation of Church and State (which means we can't govern by religion). Could you imagine how bad our society would be if that weren't the case? After we give these people a taste of freedom and free enterprise, they will want to keep it. It's only natural to want to be free.
It makes me sick to see the media give us no hope at all. It's almost like they want us to lose all sense of pride and lose a war that we can easily win. I dunno....thoughts?
I believe the Iraqi people want to be free, but you will never see that from the biased media. You hear it from the soldiers and you saw it a few times at the beginning of the war. After that, an election year came up and, oops...we can't show anything good now. We don't want another R in the office...but anyway, these people were tortured and supressed for many many years. Saddam was far from an Islamic ruler, he was a secularist and governed in his own interests. That is why he was so bad in the first place. The people should have the right to religion, the same as we do. The people in Iraq were not governed under religion like many other ME countries. They were just living without freedom or hope, they were scared to do a lot of things that we consider freedoms. When people are governed under religion, that's where it goes wrong. That's why we have Seperation of Church and State (which means we can't govern by religion). Could you imagine how bad our society would be if that weren't the case? After we give these people a taste of freedom and free enterprise, they will want to keep it. It's only natural to want to be free.
It makes me sick to see the media give us no hope at all. It's almost like they want us to lose all sense of pride and lose a war that we can easily win. I dunno....thoughts?
Last edited by RobTheDrummer on Monday May 10, 2004, edited 1 time in total.
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bassist_25
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Well, with television shows like The Swan, maybe we are like Michael Jackson. 
When I get out of grad school, I'm going to see if he will hire me as his shrink; A pyschologist could make a career out of that guy.
When I get out of grad school, I'm going to see if he will hire me as his shrink; A pyschologist could make a career out of that guy."He's the electric horseman, you better back off!" - old sKool making a reference to the culturally relevant 1979 film.
Great Post, Rob, Let me add to it by pointing out that it took US 6 years between the British surrender at Yorktown and the ratification of our current Constitution. Also remember that these people have not had a real idea of what freedom was. If you spend your whole life with no choices and then one day you wake up and bang! you have all the choices in the world it can be a little mind boggling. There are people in the world who will take advantage of that kind of chaos for their own purposes.
A Theocracy is pretty easy to set up. You find a bunch of people who don't have much education and are still shell shocked from years of poverty and war, (Don't forget, Iraq was at war with Iran through the 80's and the common people suffered greatly through the 90's because of Saddam's refusal to obey the UN) and you tell them "This is what God wants" and "America is to blame" and not knowing any better, people follow.
A Democracy on the other hand must be complex and there will be haggling, every little group wants it's say and a certain amount of autonomy, where national issues overlap local concerns is hard enough to figure out for people WITH an education.
We could very well fail in Iraq but not because we are corrupt or morally bankrupt or any of that, but because the task itself is SO HUGE that we can't do it alone, and where are our so-called allies? Who knows?
My point is building a democracy takes the time and dedication of an entire people, I don't know that the Iraqi's, after all they've been through in the past 3 decades, have it in them. We were lucky, Adams and Jefferson and Hamilton were VERY well educated for their time, monumentally smart and very dedicated to the ideals that make America what it is. If the Iraqi's ever had men like this to lead them Saddam probbaly had them killed.
I think we see what we see on TV about Iraq cause it's not happening "fast enough". I have every confidence that many years from now the world will see that we were right to do what we are doing but it's gonna take a while.
A Theocracy is pretty easy to set up. You find a bunch of people who don't have much education and are still shell shocked from years of poverty and war, (Don't forget, Iraq was at war with Iran through the 80's and the common people suffered greatly through the 90's because of Saddam's refusal to obey the UN) and you tell them "This is what God wants" and "America is to blame" and not knowing any better, people follow.
A Democracy on the other hand must be complex and there will be haggling, every little group wants it's say and a certain amount of autonomy, where national issues overlap local concerns is hard enough to figure out for people WITH an education.
We could very well fail in Iraq but not because we are corrupt or morally bankrupt or any of that, but because the task itself is SO HUGE that we can't do it alone, and where are our so-called allies? Who knows?
My point is building a democracy takes the time and dedication of an entire people, I don't know that the Iraqi's, after all they've been through in the past 3 decades, have it in them. We were lucky, Adams and Jefferson and Hamilton were VERY well educated for their time, monumentally smart and very dedicated to the ideals that make America what it is. If the Iraqi's ever had men like this to lead them Saddam probbaly had them killed.
I think we see what we see on TV about Iraq cause it's not happening "fast enough". I have every confidence that many years from now the world will see that we were right to do what we are doing but it's gonna take a while.
Blooz to Youz
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mad hatter
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It's funny how you people are all "yeah we gotta get those terrorists or we're all fucked" Let's use our brains people, terrorism is here to stay, unfortunately, and our mighty military isn't going to put an end to it. We went to war for WMD. THERE ARE NONE! BUSH FUCKED UP, case closed. If you really think we're doing the right thing, then sign up with Uncle Sam and go help or shut up. I guarantee that not one survivor feels that their loss is worth this bullshit. Hey but fuck it let's go invade every country in the world, I'm sure there are people funding terrorism in every single country. Fuck it lets commit a global suicide, then there will be no more issues to resolve.
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bassist_25
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Mad Hatter brought up a great point, and one that many people fail to realize. The reason we went in, was for WMDs. Since they weren't found, the administration and the Bush apologists smoothed everything over with the euphemism of this being a liberation campaign. When the war began, I said, "Well, you know what. I'm not in the CIA. I don't have access to classified information, so maybe there is substantial evidence of WMDs, and the administration just isn't releasing all of the details because it would jeapordize the campaign". Well, apparently there were some major bungles in intelligence.
The fact of the matter is though, we are there now, so arguing whether we should be or not is a moot point. If we pulled out now, it would have a disastorous effect on the Middle East, and the world. We kicked the hornets nest, so now we have no choice but to throw gasoline on it and set it on fire.
The fact of the matter is though, we are there now, so arguing whether we should be or not is a moot point. If we pulled out now, it would have a disastorous effect on the Middle East, and the world. We kicked the hornets nest, so now we have no choice but to throw gasoline on it and set it on fire.
"He's the electric horseman, you better back off!" - old sKool making a reference to the culturally relevant 1979 film.
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lonewolf
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I don't give a flying fuck whether there are WMDs in Iraq. The fact is, most people don't. Period. Its just a lame, pathetic attempt by the left wing to stain a president who is doing an excellent job.
When I watched the stock market slowly crash in 2000 (I sold almost all my shares in 12/99) and then 9/11 hit at the darkest hour, I was convinced that we would have a severe recession or, with deflation, a DEPRESSION. Despite the ominous signs, we had only the slightest, minimal definition of a recession and unemployment is at normal levels.
If you think these are bad times, wait until you REALLY see bad times.
Anybody wanna guess why we have major military actions on two fronts, on each side of Iran?
When I watched the stock market slowly crash in 2000 (I sold almost all my shares in 12/99) and then 9/11 hit at the darkest hour, I was convinced that we would have a severe recession or, with deflation, a DEPRESSION. Despite the ominous signs, we had only the slightest, minimal definition of a recession and unemployment is at normal levels.
If you think these are bad times, wait until you REALLY see bad times.
Anybody wanna guess why we have major military actions on two fronts, on each side of Iran?
...Oh, the freedom of the day that yielded to no rule or time...
The part I just don't get about terrorism is that, it's never worked. Never once.
Since the late 40's, The Palestinians have been blowing themselves to bits trying to destroy Israel and the Israelis are still there.
The Irish have lobbed bomb after bomb at english soldiers and the brits and the protestants have been there since Henry VIII,
In the 60's and 70's German communist cells used terror plots to bring down capitalism, How's capitalism doin these days?
in this country the KKK used terror tactics to keep blacks from getting the vote and to segregation in place, anybody know how that turned out?
The guys aren't revolutionaries or even political operatives, they are just fucking psycopathic thugs.
If they really wanted us out they would do the one thing that HAS worked, pacive resistance, Ghandi pretty much kicked the brits out of india and using the same tactics MLK got a better deal for minoties herre at home it's the only tactic that is proven to do what these guys say they want done.
These guys don't really want that, They want you and me and our kids and their kids dead, they are thugs and viciuos murderers and they can't all die soon enough for me.
This is a war and we need to commit ourselves to that fact.
Since the late 40's, The Palestinians have been blowing themselves to bits trying to destroy Israel and the Israelis are still there.
The Irish have lobbed bomb after bomb at english soldiers and the brits and the protestants have been there since Henry VIII,
In the 60's and 70's German communist cells used terror plots to bring down capitalism, How's capitalism doin these days?
in this country the KKK used terror tactics to keep blacks from getting the vote and to segregation in place, anybody know how that turned out?
The guys aren't revolutionaries or even political operatives, they are just fucking psycopathic thugs.
If they really wanted us out they would do the one thing that HAS worked, pacive resistance, Ghandi pretty much kicked the brits out of india and using the same tactics MLK got a better deal for minoties herre at home it's the only tactic that is proven to do what these guys say they want done.
These guys don't really want that, They want you and me and our kids and their kids dead, they are thugs and viciuos murderers and they can't all die soon enough for me.
This is a war and we need to commit ourselves to that fact.
Blooz to Youz
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mad hatter
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lonewolf
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Without stooping to namecalling (you know, what the ignorant and unintelligent resort to), all I've heard out of you is fuck this and fuck that without the slightest hint of intelligent insight into these issues.Wow dude, you're a fucking moron!
I submit that you have never seen truly hard times in your life and don't have a clue what they are like and as soon as Dan Rather Not and the rest of the ivory tower left wing types start telling you that these are the worst of times, you believe them. What will you do if we really do hit hard times? What would you do if you had a family and mortgage to take care of, got laid off and couldn't find a full time job for 5 years? What if that full time job paid $10,000/year less than the one you lost 5 years earlier? Did you ever pay 18% interest rates? Of course not, these are the worst of times and they are giving away new cars at 0% with no money down.
Such whining....get over it.
Last edited by lonewolf on Thursday May 13, 2004, edited 3 times in total.
...Oh, the freedom of the day that yielded to no rule or time...
Mad Hatter,mad hatter wrote:Wow dude, you're a fucking moron!It's just a lame pathetic attempt by the left wing to stain a president who is doing an excellent job.
I know we all have our own opinions, so here is mine. After reading your posts:
<b> <u> I think you are the fucking moron!!!! </u> </b>
I normally wouldn't say shit like that, but it really struck a chord with me that you would make a comment to Lone Wolf like that. Maybe it is none of my business, probably not. I don't care which side of this (or any other issue) I was on, I wouldn't think very highly of someone saying that to someone else on this forum. So, it really comes down to me thinking you are moron not just for your blind political views but more so for your attitude and immaturity.
Urbs
A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man; a debt he proposes to pay off with your money. -G Gordon Liddy
I agree that we are there now, WMD's or not. Killing people on video, for making someone show their pee-pee to a girl... how can you justify that? In political threads, I have admitted W isn't the guy I want to lead us, but fact is, he's there, and will most likely still be there after November. It's moot whether you're for or against the Commander-In-Chief... he's backing away and letting his people do their jobs.
As for the name-calling... eh, I saw that coming. Not everybody has the intelligence necessary for a wider world view, let alone the maturity. That's not a dig to anyone in particular... just an observation. We had a good discussion, with important views from both sides, and we expressed our outrage like men and women. Eventually all public forums devolve, so I'm out of this thread. Thanks,all!---->JMS
As for the name-calling... eh, I saw that coming. Not everybody has the intelligence necessary for a wider world view, let alone the maturity. That's not a dig to anyone in particular... just an observation. We had a good discussion, with important views from both sides, and we expressed our outrage like men and women. Eventually all public forums devolve, so I'm out of this thread. Thanks,all!---->JMS
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bassist_25
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Yeah, I'm with you John. I think I'm outta this thread, also. I still think Bush is doing a terrible job, (Enron, No Child Left Behind, Iraq with no exist plan, spending that would make most Dems look frugal, ect.) But I wasn't expecting to change anyone's views. Just wanted to talk a little politics. I don't want to see rockpage.net turn into parocks.com (God, I'm turning into a PC hippie here. I need to buy some sandals and start amassing a large collection of Grateful Dead and Phish bootlegs )
)"He's the electric horseman, you better back off!" - old sKool making a reference to the culturally relevant 1979 film.
Okay, now that a couple hours have passed, I feel the need to apologize.
I reacted to the Mad Hatter and typed my response without thinking it completely through. I don't know you, therefore I cannot call you a moron. I was completely wrong in doing that.
Songsmith is right, there is no need for name calling. I can't take back what has already happened, so the best I can do is say that <b> <u> I am sorry!! </u> </b>
My opinion about Bush and the War and the WMD are still the same as my previous posts. I just wanted to say that my last post was unfair and I like to admit when I am wrong.
Urbs
I reacted to the Mad Hatter and typed my response without thinking it completely through. I don't know you, therefore I cannot call you a moron. I was completely wrong in doing that.
Songsmith is right, there is no need for name calling. I can't take back what has already happened, so the best I can do is say that <b> <u> I am sorry!! </u> </b>
My opinion about Bush and the War and the WMD are still the same as my previous posts. I just wanted to say that my last post was unfair and I like to admit when I am wrong.
Urbs
A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man; a debt he proposes to pay off with your money. -G Gordon Liddy
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mad hatter
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Hey, I don't mind being called a fucking moron if that's what you think. However, my life HAS been greatly affected by the bumbling idiot in the white house. My wife was there for a year, ripped away from her family, including a 3 year old daughter, and for what?! To be a part of something that just made the problem in Iraq 10 times bigger. So you could say I am pretty bitter. I've done my research on Bush, enough to know that he's a horrible president. It just baffles my mind how anyone could actually say he is doing an excellent job. It just BAFFLES my mind. Oh, and if I'm an immature, unintelligent brat because I like to say fuck a lot, then so be it.
FUCK BUSH
FUCK BUSH
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tornandfrayed
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What can you say? Love him or hate him the truth is that we are in a war that we will not win! Do you remember Vietnam? Can you believe that most people who are not affected by the war by having a loved one over there don't care? We had a great outpouring of love over the 9/11 horror that occurred and then it went away. We are a society motivated by material needs and self absorbtion. Am I any better? I don't know. I am kept very busy just trying to make ends meet, anyone else have that problem? The powers that be keep the general populous at bay by creating a situation that requires our full attention. The minimum wage is $5.35 or some ridiculous fucking number that cannot support a family. We have created a situation where most families have both parents working so that "latch key" children isn't even a term anymore, it is the norm.
I pray that we can move forward and do the right things in our lives to help each other and enrich ourselves and the people around us.
Wether we like Bush or not the government is the problem. The beauracratic situation that has ammased itself in front of our eyes is ridiculous. The government consists of wealthy people that cannot represent the common man.
John Kerry sent me a letter that I received today. It seems as though John might need a few bucks from me in order to run a successful campaign. Fuck him!
What happened to government "By the people and for the people?" I think that the minute officials decided that they should be able to vote to give themselves raises that ended. We have a big problem but...
America is still by far the Greatest Country that I have ever been to. I would lay down my life for the true constitution and the principles that our great country was founded on.
"Bring me your weak, bring me your poor, bring me your downtrodden"
"One Country under God, indivisible with Liberty and Justice for ALL!"
I pray that we can move forward and do the right things in our lives to help each other and enrich ourselves and the people around us.
Wether we like Bush or not the government is the problem. The beauracratic situation that has ammased itself in front of our eyes is ridiculous. The government consists of wealthy people that cannot represent the common man.
John Kerry sent me a letter that I received today. It seems as though John might need a few bucks from me in order to run a successful campaign. Fuck him!
What happened to government "By the people and for the people?" I think that the minute officials decided that they should be able to vote to give themselves raises that ended. We have a big problem but...
America is still by far the Greatest Country that I have ever been to. I would lay down my life for the true constitution and the principles that our great country was founded on.
"Bring me your weak, bring me your poor, bring me your downtrodden"
"One Country under God, indivisible with Liberty and Justice for ALL!"
Torn & Frayed
One World, One Voice, One God!
Music is LIFE!
One World, One Voice, One God!
Music is LIFE!
mad hatter wrote: My wife was there for a year, ripped away from her family, including a 3 year old daughter, and for what?!
I must admit that you really struck a pet peeve with me on that statement. I have heard this same song and dance before and I can not and will not be sympathetic. I'm sorry if you didn't have your wife for a year, but WHO CARES!!
Obviously she is in the reserves, right?
What the hell do you expect? I guess the reserves are great if you can collect a paycheck for working two days a month, not to mention the added value towards retirement. But God forbid you actually get called to perform the tasks you were trained for. SUCKIT UP!
I am so sick of hearing this sort of thing. If you sign up for it, then deal with it when you are called to do what you are paid to do!!
And as for your research on Bush, I have not seen you post any intelligent arguements about this to date. You can bash Bush all you want, you can swear all you want, and you can name call all you want, but you have yet to show me that you know any of which you claim to know. (did that make sense??? - I don't know - time for bed!!
Urbs
A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man; a debt he proposes to pay off with your money. -G Gordon Liddy
This is really a great discussion. I can't help but throw my opinions in here as well...
I don't care if they ever find WMD's. I will always believe that they had them. They sure as hell DID have them. They used them on their own people - REMEMBER.....
I think President Bush is doing a fine job. It takes a lot of balls to do what he is doing. I have had people tell me that they don't like Bush because he is 'cocky'. Well I would rather have him is office than some pussy. Just think about what it takes to make the kind of decisions he had to make everyday. Sure, he could make the easy 'popular' ones that would make his ratings go up. He chooses to make the difficult decisions however unpopular they may be. I think that it shows a lot of integrity given that it is an election year. Put yourself in his shoes, I'd bet you wouldn't have a clue of what to do.
I am more than happy to support our Commander in Chief and Secretary of Defense. I feel that they are doing a great job. Again, put yourself in their shoes and see how you like it.
We do not 'invade' countries for the hell of it. We use our military to 'liberate' areas of the world where idiots like Sadam rule by tyranny and torture. I ask anyone to give me an example of a place that our military has been that is now in a worse situation because we were there.
We have freedom like no other country in the world and we are generous enough to help everyone else achieve the same freedoms. Be proud of the country you live in and be supportive of your government. Even with all the bad parts, our government is still the best in the world. Isn't it nice to live in a country where you can bash our leader and the worst that happens is you get beat up on a discussion board?
One final thing. Now the media is talking about the videos and pictures of US military guards having sex. The media is lumping this in with the 'prisoner abuse' stuff like it is related. Who cares if some of our male and female troops are having sex! Good for them. The media is telling us that this is so bad. What is bad about it?
In case you didn't catch on... I am not a liberal.
Cheers!
I don't care if they ever find WMD's. I will always believe that they had them. They sure as hell DID have them. They used them on their own people - REMEMBER.....
I think President Bush is doing a fine job. It takes a lot of balls to do what he is doing. I have had people tell me that they don't like Bush because he is 'cocky'. Well I would rather have him is office than some pussy. Just think about what it takes to make the kind of decisions he had to make everyday. Sure, he could make the easy 'popular' ones that would make his ratings go up. He chooses to make the difficult decisions however unpopular they may be. I think that it shows a lot of integrity given that it is an election year. Put yourself in his shoes, I'd bet you wouldn't have a clue of what to do.
I am more than happy to support our Commander in Chief and Secretary of Defense. I feel that they are doing a great job. Again, put yourself in their shoes and see how you like it.
We do not 'invade' countries for the hell of it. We use our military to 'liberate' areas of the world where idiots like Sadam rule by tyranny and torture. I ask anyone to give me an example of a place that our military has been that is now in a worse situation because we were there.
We have freedom like no other country in the world and we are generous enough to help everyone else achieve the same freedoms. Be proud of the country you live in and be supportive of your government. Even with all the bad parts, our government is still the best in the world. Isn't it nice to live in a country where you can bash our leader and the worst that happens is you get beat up on a discussion board?
One final thing. Now the media is talking about the videos and pictures of US military guards having sex. The media is lumping this in with the 'prisoner abuse' stuff like it is related. Who cares if some of our male and female troops are having sex! Good for them. The media is telling us that this is so bad. What is bad about it?
In case you didn't catch on... I am not a liberal.
Cheers!