What makes it worth your while to pick up an instrument and play or sing (ah-hem - BD Rob ). Why do you do it....is it for love or money.....is it both....is it something completely different? I'm not sure there is a black or white answer here.
DirtySanchez wrote:Why I get pissed with people who say "I wouldn't set up my gear for less than x amount of dollars." What artistic motherfuckers they are.
I wonder how many masterpieces would not exist had true artists felt that way?
First, Sanchez, this is not a rip on you at all. I hope I also haven't taken your quote out of context....if so I sincerely apologize. Fact is, I think your opinion is quite interesting (even though I don't agree with it) and I bet there will be a lot of differing opinions and healthy discussion on it. I hope so anyway. We need more music related threads on here.
Wellllllllllllllllll, I will be the first to admit I have said something similar to that. Even just recently. At this stage of my life and my past experiences, there is no way I would pick up my sticks for less than "x" amount of $. Exceptions being: an occassional benefit, jamming with friends or the occassional exposure gigs. I love music. I consider myself an artist. I've even been called a mother f****r - ha ha.
But for real. I don't have anything to prove anymore. I've been playing almost 25 years now. I have paid my dues. I've had plenty good times and adventures with the bad. I have expensive gear. And by damned my time is valuable! Do I feel superior to someone willing to play for nothing? Oh hell no! I've done it plenty and have absolutely no regrets. And I have a TON of respect for the guys and ladies who do it. I guess all I am saying is that I don't feel guilty or "upity" for wanting to be compensated for my skills and time. But hey....that's just me.
Let the discussion rolllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
I usually don't post on here unless its something worthwhile, and I think this thread is.
That being said, I'm not a musician. I run a recording studio and a little-itsy-bitsy indie label. I don't do either with the hopes of making serious cash. I do it because I love the music and I love working with people to get there music out there to other people who love music.
Do I think I'm good at what I do? ... No, I don't. But I refuse to give up.
You (meaning anyone) might not like the records I have done or the bands that I work with, that's ok. I'll keep doing it, because once again... its what I love doing. The more I think about it all the bands I work with are the same way; they just want to make an album, play shows and have a good time. Sometimes they sell records, sometimes they give them away, but everyone usually ends up with a smile on their face at the end of the day.
I always was somewhat of a performer. I was a working magician with a crew of 2 guys and 3 girls. I started at 12 untill it grew into that show when I was 25. I always loved being in front of a crowd. Kinda a personal high even tho I hated to even speak in school in front of the class.
My dad was a performer and was in "The Pennsylvania Hillbillies" so it's been in the blood. Even tho I only saw him about 3 times in my whole life.
I still get that high when getting up there but after being in a few bands and getting older, having a better 1/2 (so its not to pick up chicks anymore...lol), I appriciate the time off as much as playing. We just had this talk with the band the other day, "If I can't put X amount of money in my pocket for a days work to play one night, I'd rather have the time off to camp (just got a new camper this year), go somewhere, truck shows or just chill." We have to make enough to pay the help too or we're the ones that have to put the roadie shirts on and still there when that last amp is rolled to the truck...(sounds like a song by Jackson Brown!!)
Steve,
Great thread and I think you got exactly what I was saying.
I believe artists should be paid for their hard work, creativity, talen, and ability. However, "paid" for you and "paid" for me are two different things.
What makes it worth my while, is when I see the smile on my bandmates faces as I look around in the middle of a song we created because we're "NAILING IT" and everyone in the audience is rocking out.
It's also when some kid comes up and says "How can I get more of your music?" or "Wow, you guys should play here more often."
Yes I said kid, someone who paid there allowance to get into a show for the music, not cuz there are a bunch of easy drunk chicks at the bar.
What also makes it worth it is that I see what a clusterfuck this world and the assholes who inhabit it are. I write about it and get to scream it to the masses every chance i get. No better therapy than that.
My time is worth something too, but I do this for the love of it.
I love to flyfish too, I've spent thousands of dollars on it.
When I go to the stream and get skunked, I don't expect the fish to take a collection to cover my gas money for coming out or a reimbursement from the fish commission. In fact for the shit wages most places pay, I'd be embarrassed to admit I even try to make a living at this. I'd make more collecting aluminum cans which is actually pretty lucrative at 63 cents a pound, but nowhere near as rewarding.
"You are now either a clueless inbred brownshirt Teabagger, or a babykilling hippie Marxist on welfare."-Songsmith
Excellent topic! These are in no particular order:
Challenge - The same reason we play video games and do crossword puzzles. The challenge/reward paradigm. Fortunately I've been gifted with zero natural talent, so I don't have to try to put together a Mahavishnu Orchestra tribute band to satisfy this need.
Financing the Hobby - Being a musician isn't cheap . . . gear, studio time, travel, marketing. The more you can put into it, the more you can get out of it. If Sanchez could make money flyfishing, he'd probably be able to do a hell of a lot more of it.
Random Chaos - Interesting people. Interesting situations. Unpredictable weirdness. Need I say more?
It's Music Dammit - It's like pizza or sex or roller coasters. A lot of it is repetitive and predictable, but it's rarely unpleasant. And when it's good, it's so damn good you have to go back for more.
Most of the high we receive is the flow coming from the audience, Even if its one guy banging his head. Or the person that takes the time to come up, shake your hand, and let you know you rocked!... It makes the night worth wild. (But compliments don't get the bills paid.)
Jimi Hatt wrote:Excellent topic! These are in no particular order:
Challenge - The same reason we play video games and do crossword puzzles. The challenge/reward paradigm. Fortunately I've been gifted with zero natural talent, so I don't have to try to put together a Mahavishnu Orchestra tribute band to satisfy this need.
Financing the Hobby - Being a musician isn't cheap . . . gear, studio time, travel, marketing. The more you can put into it, the more you can get out of it. If Sanchez could make money flyfishing, he'd probably be able to do a hell of a lot more of it.
Random Chaos - Interesting people. Interesting situations. Unpredictable weirdness. Need I say more?
It's Music Dammit - It's like pizza or sex or roller coasters. A lot of it is repetitive and predictable, but it's rarely unpleasant. And when it's good, it's so damn good you have to go back for more.
No, Sanchez would have to get divorced to flyfish anymore than he already does. Good post, of course I'm not saying we should all just do it for free. Just don't play in a cover band and expect the same money the bands your covering are now making to play the OG shit at little Jimmy's Bar Mitzvah.
"You are now either a clueless inbred brownshirt Teabagger, or a babykilling hippie Marxist on welfare."-Songsmith
For me personally, I have a similar philosophy as Steve. I believe that everyone has their own right to play music for whatever reasons they believe, and I don't have the right to define whatever instrinic value they recieve by performing and/or writing music. I do put a value on what I do though, because, as Steve mentioned, I feel that my time has value. Between all of the factors in my life, I sometimes don't know whether I'm coming or going. Last week was the first weekend I've had off since like June. It was actually nice to be able just go hang out on a Saturday night. I got to see the Embalmed, and they rocked (plus they're all quality dudes). But I digress. The all-age scene doesn't appeal to me at all. I just think that it would get old for me to drive out to gigs all over the region to play for 35 minutes. Some people dig doing that, and that's cool; it's just isn't for me. It has nothing to do with money. It's just something that I wouldn't want to do.
I do have a day gig, but I also commute an hour and a half, one-way to school. Last semester, I did it every day. It's expensive. If someone doesn't dig what I do and why I do it, they can piss off. Sorry, but that's my attitude about it. I don't adhere to the adage that I have to make X amount of dollars in order to plug my bass in. I'm humble enough to know that my band isn't the biggest drawing act around, and to walk into a new venue in a new area and demand a certain high amount of money from the owner is laughable (and complete rockstar bullshit). BUT!!!...I don't believe in taking it up the ass just to get up on stage. Also, Jason and I were talking this past Saturday that it's not good to get the reputation as the band "who will always open" or the band who "will always play for free." Again, I don't think there's anything wrong with putting value on your time.
I do believe that paying dues are important. Sometimes it's a kick in the nads, but I think that it's what makes you professional and grounds you in this business. All new projects start from scratch, and I've watched a lot of people in previously successful bands learn that hard lesson. Many thought that the previous success would transfer to the new project, and that rarely happens.
In all, I'm enjoying gigging, but after my life settles a bit, I seriously want to start my own independent label. I'd really like to get into the production end of things. I'm not looking to get rich off of that. Actually, I'd be happy to break even. On the other hand, I know that every business needs to evetually turn a profit.
"He's the electric horseman, you better back off!" - old sKool making a reference to the culturally relevant 1979 film.
Jimi Hatt wrote:Fortunately I've been gifted with zero natural talent, so I don't have to try to put together a Mahavishnu Orchestra tribute band to satisfy this need.
Damn it! And I know this violinist who can nail Open Country Joy.
"He's the electric horseman, you better back off!" - old sKool making a reference to the culturally relevant 1979 film.
Money and art are separate, but not necessarily mutually exclusive.
That being said, I only have two points:
1. I'd never play in a cover band if I wasn't getting paid.
2. I have (and do) play originals without making a cent.
I once had a conversation with a writer friend of mine who was discouraged about not "making it" and getting published. I asked him "if you knew you'd never make a cent writing, would you quit?" He answered "no." If you can answer the same question the same way about your art, then you're doing things for the right reasons.
Last corny motivational quote for the day: My old boss used to say "Don't chase money, chase SUCCESS. If you find SUCCESS, money will follow."
I'd have to say he's right. Last time I looked there were a lot of creative types driving really nice cars. Some of 'em even got them without selling out!
grimmbass wrote:Money and art are separate, but not necessarily mutually exclusive.
That being said, I only have two points:
1. I'd never play in a cover band if I wasn't getting paid.
2. I have (and do) play originals without making a cent.
I once had a conversation with a writer friend of mine who was discouraged about not "making it" and getting published. I asked him "if you knew you'd never make a cent writing, would you quit?" He answered "no." If you can answer the same question the same way about your art, then you're doing things for the right reasons.
Last corny motivational quote for the day: My old boss used to say "Don't chase money, chase SUCCESS. If you find SUCCESS, money will follow."
I'd have to say he's right. Last time I looked there were a lot of creative types driving really nice cars. Some of 'em even got them without selling out!
Peace
GREAT POST!!!
You sort of said everything I was thinking.
I just have this thing where I always come across like an asshole.
Prolly has something to do with the fact that I am an asshole.
"You are now either a clueless inbred brownshirt Teabagger, or a babykilling hippie Marxist on welfare."-Songsmith
i actually played with a guitarist for awhile (he came with the gig - i had no choice) who told me the reason he played music was to impress other musicians. he was one of the biggest jerks i have ever been in a band with. i also think he is about as far off base as possible with his thinking.
I once played a river party, and I guy I sorta knew from another band asked to jam. Fine by me. This douche blows Malmsteen-style shred licks through the turnaround in "LaGrange". Seriously. And then he fucks up the second solo's rythym part. Afterward, my bassist was just being genial, and said "Good playing, man", not that he meant it. This guy replies "I'm always good". Serious as a heart attack.
I ran into him a few weeks ago. He hasn't been in a band for 10 years. And it's not for lack of his playing ability.
"well, why don't you make ten louder and just have that be the loudest one?"
Sapo wrote:i actually played with a guitarist for awhile (he came with the gig - i had no choice) who told me the reason he played music was to impress other musicians. he was one of the biggest jerks i have ever been in a band with. i also think he is about as far off base as possible with his thinking.
Stratobastard27 wrote:I once played a river party, and I guy I sorta knew from another band asked to jam. Fine by me. This douche blows Malmsteen-style shred licks through the turnaround in "LaGrange". Seriously. And then he fucks up the second solo's rythym part. Afterward, my bassist was just being genial, and said "Good playing, man", not that he meant it. This guy replies "I'm always good". Serious as a heart attack.
I ran into him a few weeks ago. He hasn't been in a band for 10 years. And it's not for lack of his playing ability.
What douchebags. I think we've all met musicians (can you call them musicians?) like that.
"He's the electric horseman, you better back off!" - old sKool making a reference to the culturally relevant 1979 film.
It's a great topic! I've been nailed on this one, because of my soft-spoken manner and easygoing style (HUGE sarcasm there), but I am in it now for the money, pure and simple.
I have a large monetary investment in my drums and equipment, and (having not been in an original band in about 20 years) I have bills to pay. I'm past the point, at age 38, of doing this for the love of playing. I've played more than my fair share of sh*t gigs for no money, gotten screwed by bar owners just like everyone else, and I'm over it.
I took my shot at "making it" when I was in my 20's. Came close, but didn't get there. I'm way past the age of travelling across 15 states in a van, sleeping at rest stops and surviving on Top Ramen and Kool-Aid. I'm also way past the age of playing shows for nothing, or doing pay-to-plays, or playing a 6-band show for no money because nobody has enough "get up and go" to learn 3 hours of material.
I'm not arrogant, I just know what my time is worth. I have a life, I have a wife and kids that I love, and I can just as easily spend my evenings with them. I love playing, and it's the one time that I'm truly at peace. But I have to get paid to do it, period. I've done plenty of benefit shows, mind you, and am always willing to do something for a good cause, so I'm not a total asshole.
But to me, going out with a well-rehearsed project to play at a dive for $200 is not going to happen anymore. I'm proud of my gear, my band, and our music, and I won't sell us short. I've put my life into my playing, and I expect to be compensated for it. Well compensated.
I agree with ya toonarockguy. I'm not nearly as old(dont take offense to that, just making that info available) but have been playing in bands for almost 10 years now. I've done my share of free gigs and pay to play deals as well as the split the door gigs where the band makes $15 bucks. I have a wife and a young child who would much rather have me home with them instead of practicing twice a week and playing out on the weekend. I think that as well as the time I put in practicing and the effort hauling, setting up, tearing down, and hauling home equipment justifys bands to make more then $200 a night. I say that but there are still a few places I play that pay us well under what most bands make. I always seem to have a problem asking the owners for more money and dont want to seem like a dick by asking for more. Also, I am afraid of the fact that there are a ton of bands out there that will play for that kinda money just to get to play. This brings us back from my rant into the subject of this thing. With so many bands out there willing to play for nothing how do the more established bands get what they deserve? Naturally packing a venue helps make more money but we have all played those places that more often then not dont get a huge crowd.
This thread is fantastic.
Here's my observation, you do what you want with it.
All original= Art first
Covers= Money first
I don't want to start a fight, but there is a difference between creating art and imitating it. And yes I know, I know, just cuz it's original does not mean it's good/quality/talented. Save it really This is about why WE do what we do not what everyone else thinks so save your ego trip.
I have sex for fun too.
Theres a word for people who don't and only do it for the money though.
End of rant, I guess I'll go back to stealing food from your kids mouths by playing All Age shows for gas money.
"You are now either a clueless inbred brownshirt Teabagger, or a babykilling hippie Marxist on welfare."-Songsmith
Lots of great posts. A few had me crackin up. I really enjoyed reading about the "smiles" on peoples face.....I couldnt agree more. Youd have to be a sadist if some small part of you played music and didnt love it.
Hurricane Bobby, you nailed it too! I just want to be paid for setting up and tearing down....the rest is gravy.
DirtySanchez wrote:This thread is fantastic.
Here's my observation, you do what you want with it.
All original= Art first
Covers= Money first
Yep...pretty much.
I have sex for fun too.
Theres a word for people who don't and only do it for the money though.
I love hookers
End of rant, I guess I'll go back to stealing food from your kids mouths by playing All Age shows for gas money.
For shame Sanchez....I think you might lose election votes for that. Im calling the tabloids!
DirtySanchez wrote:This thread is fantastic.
Here's my observation, you do what you want with it.
All original= Art first
Covers= Money first
I don't want to start a fight, but there is a difference between creating art and imitating it. And yes I know, I know, just cuz it's original does not mean it's good/quality/talented. Save it really This is about why WE do what we do not what everyone else thinks so save your ego trip.
I have sex for fun too.
Theres a word for people who don't and only do it for the money though.
End of rant, I guess I'll go back to stealing food from your kids mouths by playing All Age shows for gas money.
But DS, isn't that kind of backhanded, saying that you don't want to start a fight and telling us to "save your ego trip", then tossing out a thinly-veiled insult at cover band musicians? Come on, bro, you're better than that.
DirtySanchez wrote:Here's my observation, you do what you want with it.
All original= Art first
Covers= Money first
In our area, at the level of the business we're at, cover bands have more opportunities and make more money than original bands. This has deep consequences. That's all I've got to say about that.
Isn't it interesting that at highest levels of the industry, things can reverse? The guy who gets the songwriting credit collects the royalties. You have lawsuits flying back and forth over who gets what cut of the original music and bands fighting over who's original songs go on the record. And if an established band is playing or recording covers, it's often just for the love of the music.
To digress into trivia a bit, Bob Marley gave songwriting credit for his hit "No Woman No Cry" to a guy who ran a soup kitchen. I always thought it was a cover because Marley's name isn't on it, but it's just a bit of charity. That's frickin' cool.
What is your time worth? This is a great discussion that will no doubt continue to arise and some great points have already been brought up. It will also no doubt ruffle feathers but hey, this is Rockpage.
I’ll offer my two cents and take it for what it’s worth. This is how “the scene” applies to me in a not-so-small nutshell.
I love to sing. I love to perform. I love to entertain. It’s the reason I’m here to begin with and it’s the one thing that I do and have done in my life in which I have 100 percent confidence in my abilities. If I didn’t have a passion for what I do, then I wouldn’t be doing it at all, for any reason.
Having said that, at this stage of my life, if it didn’t generate some sort of income, I wouldn’t be able to justify the amount of time I devote to it. That’s reality. I’ll paraphrase Sanchez from his fishing analogy. No matter how much I love to perform, I’d end up in divorce court if it didn’t turn a profit, considering the amount of time it consumes. No different than the fishing. Sanchez, I’m sure the missus wouldn’t mind if you fished four, five days a week if you were one of those guys on those fishing TV shows or a guide or something and were making money doing it. The compensation justifies the time investment, pure and simple.
I have the day job that occupies a significant amount of my time, both days and evenings. I work a job that I do like, but I don’t love, mainly because the pay is OK but not astronomical and there’s bullshit that comes along with any “daily grind,” but the weekend schedule I have with the “tolerable” day job allows me to gig. Now, with that in mind, with a family, a mortgage, bills and everything else that takes money, I still couldn’t really spend some Fridays, most Saturdays and some Sundays (and now, Thursdays and some Wednesdays) performing if it didn’t include an appropriate amount of financial compensation. That’s another reality.
Right now, this is my part-time job. My wife has one, too, and I’ll guarantee you she wouldn’t spend three to four nights a week away from home (on top of her full-time job) if it didn’t generate income for our household.
The thing is, in my opinion, it should be everyone’s goal to earn a living doing what they love to do — what comes naturally to them and what gives them joy and satisfaction — and performance has been that one thing for me as far back as I can remember. I’ve always wanted music to be my profession. It took me until my late 20s to figure out how to manage the time and to make money gigging and, with all due respect, Brian, never once have I felt that I was prostituting myself by accepting pay for performing.
I understand what you’re saying about “art first” and that’s cool. I respect your approach. And you’re right, bands like Fed Up, The Grimm and others who hit the pavement from the get-go exclusively with their original music are putting art first. But, as I said, it’s an “approach.” I for one am not fooled by a notion that being in a cover band will earn me, or anyone else in a cover band for that matter, national noteriety or fame. What it does provide is a platform to, not only perfect a stage show, which is such an important ingredient to any touring band that’s been signed (many don’t realize this, and fans are oftentimes disappointed when they see their favorite band live because, frankly, a lot of touring bands suck due to the fact that they never prioritized the stage time), but it also creates the financial means to float recording projects and the like.
We’re writing and will continue to write (that’s what any musicians who hope to make it someplace must do), but we’ll deliver our original music in doses — that’s our approach. And it doesn’t make us, who are predominantly playing covers, any less legitimate than the “Fed Ups” or the “Grimms.”
The point being, out of respect, I wouldn’t slam you for your approach (there is no text book right way or wrong way to do it), and I’d only hope for the same respect in return.
Bottom line: Sure, I admit it, I want to make as much money as I can while hopefully putting on an entertaining show and giving the people who come out a “night out.” The cool thing with bad daZe has been, the band has created the opportunities to gig more. We’ve never had to “pack up the Nova and head to LA” which is cool because none of us are really in a position to take that kind of risk. And as long as this band continues to create its own opportunities, I’ll continue to gladly collect a paycheck for my investment, without feeling like a whore, even for a minute. It’s money we’ve earned.
DirtySanchez wrote:This thread is fantastic.
Here's my observation, you do what you want with it.
All original= Art first
Covers= Money first
I don't want to start a fight, but there is a difference between creating art and imitating it. And yes I know, I know, just cuz it's original does not mean it's good/quality/talented. Save it really This is about why WE do what we do not what everyone else thinks so save your ego trip.
I have sex for fun too.
Theres a word for people who don't and only do it for the money though.
End of rant, I guess I'll go back to stealing food from your kids mouths by playing All Age shows for gas money.
But DS, isn't that kind of backhanded, saying that you don't want to start a fight and telling us to "save your ego trip", then tossing out a thinly-veiled insult at cover band musicians? Come on, bro, you're better than that.
You're so right. I meant I didn't want to start a fight over what was more legitimate Covers or originals. As far as what is art, I'll fight all day that covers are not. By ego trip I meant exactly whats happening. Somebodys feelings got hurt cuz they think I'm degrading them for playing covers.
If you feel so guilty for playing covers you have to jump to defend something that was not attacked I suggest you sit down and evaluate what you are doing. I have no problem with covers. My punk band is doing nothing but punk rock covers. It's for fun and love of those songs, it's not art in any way though. Sorry if you're offended, but don't accuse me of backhanding anything, thats what cowards do. I'll shoot you straight, guaranteed. Here it is if you're doing something because you enjoy it great. If you're doing it for money, don't bitch that people treat you like a trained chimp. I can't wait til I'm as jaded and miserable about what I'm doing as most of you guys. Some of you need to take up needlepoint or bingo. Let the music to those PASSIONATE about music.
"You are now either a clueless inbred brownshirt Teabagger, or a babykilling hippie Marxist on welfare."-Songsmith
DirtySanchez wrote:
You're so right. I meant I didn't want to start a fight over what was more legitimate Covers or originals. As far as what is art, I'll fight all day that covers are not. By ego trip I meant exactly whats happening. Somebodys feelings got hurt cuz they think I'm degrading them for playing covers.
If you feel so guilty for playing covers you have to jump to defend something that was not attacked I suggest you sit down and evaluate what you are doing. I have no problem with covers. My punk band is doing nothing but punk rock covers. It's for fun and love of those songs, it's not art in any way though. Sorry if you're offended, but don't accuse me of backhanding anything, thats what cowards do. I'll shoot you straight, guaranteed. Here it is if you're doing something because you enjoy it great. If you're doing it for money, don't bitch that people treat you like a trained chimp. I can't wait til I'm as jaded and miserable about what I'm doing as most of you guys. Some of you need to take up needlepoint or bingo. Let the music to those PASSIONATE about music.
wait wait wait...punk not art?? let us not forget gg allin...
). Why do you do it....is it for love or money.....is it both....is it something completely different? I'm not sure there is a black or white answer here. 
