Improvisation VS Composition

[the herald]

it seems that these days most bands play songs note for note especially in cover bands, i think its cool to see a band just close their eyes and let the music shape itself every once in awhile , yes this can be dangerous , you could have a train wreck, but at the same time you hear some amazing music when bands free form. some bands will play a song jam in the middle and then come back to the song at the end this is a really cool technique that ties it all together. personally id rather hear a band hit some sour notes or have a few train wrecks than to just play every song just like the album, i think musicians best talents show when they let loose and just jam!!

[frozenhellfire]

Agreed. Watching a band go off on an artistic rampage in the middle of a song is inspiring because they are feeling the music and not just playing it.

[The Face in the Face]

unless the band sucks. wait, am i being negative again?

truly, bad improv by a horrible band is worse than getting a battery acid enema.

[esa]

I guess it all depends. If I'm going to hear people play, I want them to at least sound somewhat like the song they're trying to play. I don't want to hear grey noise and have them clame it's Obladee life goes on when it sounds like Somewhere Over the Rainbow on crack. Too many sour notes will mostly turn people off. Exceptions? Of course. I was at a jam night about a month ago. One of the people there was so drunk, they wanted to play everything.. but did so..well.. honestly? It was awful. But that person got behind some bongos, played their heart out... that made it awesome. If you're trying your damnedest, the heart is there... the people are pumped...then that will rule.
If you're a band that's been playing a while, a few sour notes is okay..but if you're around for that long.. seems like people almost "demand" that you play well. Knock their socks off even.

I'd love to get up and jam, even if there are sour notes or I'm off rhythm occasionly. I just..well, don't. Been told too much that I suck. So, I'm scared that if I do that, or if I get up to sing..that I'll.. well, suck. So...
anywho...
That's a deep question. With equally deep answers. Sorry for the ramble, but that's my .02.

[tornandfrayed]

One's ability to suck is purely dictated by ones ability to believe the perception of the one indicating that sukiness has occurred. For example, many people believe that an artist like Britney Spear could be considered to suck. The truth remains that the above mentioned sucky artist still sells millions of CD's. Does that make her good? No, not in my eyes, but beauty, as well as sucking, are in the eye of the beholder.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I love bands to improvise a little here and there. I am a big fan of give me a riff and let's make up some lyrics. That is my writing process. I think that you need to have a good feel for the other people and the type of material. If mistakes are made so be it, without the adventerous nature of music we would all be listening to recycled, recanned, britney spears music . God forbid!

[bassist_25]

What's "jamming" though? If a band is going to noodle pentatonic riffs for 20 minutes, then they should just play the core composistion, get the hook across, take a 12 bar solo, and get on to the next song.

If you are going to stretch out, go into deeper harmonies, play some chord subsitutions, reharmonize, use dynamics, just play something interesting. If you are jamming, and you have nothing new to say from what you did 2 minutes ago, it's time to end the solo.

[Banned]

Personally,I improvise all my leads on our original tunes,it's about the feeling you have right then and there,mine are never the same,who says they have to be,it's our music!!!!

[the herald]

good points people, music is such a cool thing because there are no rules, you can structure it, experiment, or just let go and jam but no matter how far you try to take it there always be something new , from beethoven to the grateful dead , early jazz to modern thrash compositions ,like some of you pointed out ,theres a type of music for every personality besides....how would we appreciate great music if there wasnt crappy music to compare it to?!

[Banned]

If you are jamming, and you have nothing new to say from what you did 2 minutes ago, it's time to end the solo.

Hah, that's why I only leave a little room for improv in our sets! I get tired of listening to myself play pretty quickly. Given a choice of playing more solos or playing more songs, I'll take "more songs" any day.

At the same time, I love hearing great improv. Especially in a context where it's appropriate and you have some great players going at it. In blues and jazz, improv isn't just a luxury, it's a way of life.

The big problem with improv is when players approach it with the attitude of "great, I only have to learn the rudiments of the song" or "great, the band doesn't have to practice". Let's be honest about this . . . we all know players and even entire bands who can be lazy about putting on a tight, professional performance. Even the Grateful Dead, the ultimate jam band, made efforts to rehearse and improve towards the end of their career. Why? Because they stepped back and decided that while they would always have good nights and bad nights, their bad nights weren't reaching an acceptable level of quality. Or take a band like Phish, who did extensive improvisational musical exercises as a band so they could go off on a tangent in a more cohesive fashion.

Or more simply . . . improvisation without preparation and discipline is just filler.

[tornandfrayed]

Well put! Improvisation can be accomodated within the structure of a piece. As was mentioned above, it is nice to hear things a little differently. Like a different guitar solo, or a different sound for a solo. Improv into the wee hours of the night on a single song can be monotonous at best. But all the points brought up here are very good.

[RobTheDrummer]

Hey people, I just think there is a time and place for both composition and improvisation. I mean, there should be lots of improv in jazz, blues, and rock. There has to be some structure though which would fall into the compositional structure. Lots of jazz charts have a set number of measures and notation, but they also have areas where there are no notes and just slashes. That's where the improv kicks in. When I go see a band, it is very cool when they improv, but the mainstream does not allow for it. People around here at least don't enjoy it. That goes back to the whole cover/original debate though. That's just my thoughts.

[Punkinhead]

In the stuff we write I pretty much play it note for note, and have to. There's some stuff going on with harmonies and shit that can't be pissed with too much. When doing covers, it should be up to the artists discretion. Music is art and to expect someone who isn't Stevie Ray to sound like him is not fair to either party. The notes may be there but, alot of the time, it's still not the same. But, you have to be sensible. Some songs, you can't improvise, they are just too well known.

[FatVin]

Jimi Hatt wrote:

improvisation without preparation and discipline is just filler

That kinda says it right there. On the other hand what is composition but the writing down of what you just improvised, Zeppelin would do that, use their improvs as a platform from which to write.

I think it's different from the the Cover v. Original debate in that you can improvise a version of a cover tune, and you can improvise a an original but if YOU compose it, it's not really a cover is it.

But improve, to my ears, works best when there is some structure that supports it. I've never been a big fan of be-bop jazz where 4 or 5 guys just go in whatever direction they feel like. Without a framework to wind around it's just chaos. but sections of improve in a solid structure can be really cool.

[HurricaneBob]

Depending on the song and if it works i like to change the groove, tempo and feel of a tune. Youd be surprised at how a tempo change from fast to slow really pulls somthing from the song. Sure, you got your structure, now go out on a wing. Ive caused so many trainwrecks in my time with the canes thats why conrail is defunkt. But ive learned somthing from every one, a new feel, groove or passage. Alot of it comes from how well you know your bandmates. Its scary sometimes when i know what Jeff is going to do and when i do somthing crazy hes always right there to pull me back in. One of us will start a rythem and it just takes off into sometimes a new original or parts of one, we even ask the crowd to name it when were done. Our newest tune is called "Now that really sucked"

How many bands out there never used a setlist? It really keeps you on your toes. This can be a nice challenge to some bands. Keep it rolling by going by the crowds vibe. This keeps every night for me fresh. I heard over the years to many fans saying when they go see bands a couple times they just know what song is coming next. That can be good and bad depending on whos listening. but thats also why we add new tunes. But thats another topic.....

[songsmith]

The appeal of good ol' 12-bar blues , to me as a musician, is what Rob brought up... you have a framework, a foundation, that you MUST adhere to, but 12-bar is so SIMPLE, so second-nature, that you can expand on it easily and devote more heart to soloing. I've always told soloists to play whatever you feel, AS LONG AS IT FITS. You have artistic freedom to paint whatever you want, but you have to stay on the canvas. It can be argued that art doesn't have to stay on the canvas, but then it's a mural... still art, but not what you set out to accomplish.
I came up in a metal band, and there wasn't much room to jam, so the freedom to do so means a lot to me now. Plus, I'm not much of a picker compared to most guys on here, but I'm at a point where I can play without embarassing myself too much finally, and it's just a kind of fun many of you have had without me for a long time.
As a songwriter, I've always mapped out the structure of my songs... it's not about the lead break instrumentation for me at that point, it's about the song. (It's ALWAYS about the song!) But when the lead solo comes up, it's you, baby, take the emotion of the song and make me feel it. I like chaos, as long as it's controlled chaos, and there's a method to the madness.--->JMS

[Mysterytrain]

This one seems interesting...

[tornandfrayed]

7 years ago, brings back some memories and some people that I haven't thought about for a while...