9/11 documentary

[Hawk]

I was only trying to remind you (plural) of the mindset on the country at that time. If you were against the war or Bush you were labeled as unpatriotic. I was against the war and I am FAR from unpatriotic !

I just used the Chicks as an example group who were seen as UnAmerican because Bush "embarrassed" them.

The radio can play whomever they want, but they would not play the Chicks because they were against the war. That was the ONLY REASON ! I see THAT as SILLY ! And I see THAT as UnAmerican ! They were punished for expressing their opinion ONLY. And you're OK with that ? That scares the hell out of me !

[Banned]

The country radio stations that stopped playing their music did that to not aleinate their base audience. Does JP play rap? Why not? It would aleinate the base classic rock audience that listens, and therefore supports JP and his station.

If those stations played the Dixie airheads, they would lose ratings and therefore lose money. They have the right to play whatever music they want, especially they have a right to play music that makes them money. It is called capitalism, like it or not.

As long as it was not the government prohibiting them, it is fine and dandy with me.

[Hawk]

The country radio stations that stopped playing their music did that to not aleinate their base audience. Does JP play rap? Why not? It would aleinate the base classic rock audience that listens, and therefore supports JP and his station.

If those stations played the Dixie airheads, they would lose ratings and therefore lose money. They have the right to play whatever music they want, especially they have a right to play music that makes them money. It is called capitalism, like it or not.

As long as it was not the government prohibiting them, it is fine and dandy with me.

Thanks Joe, you MADE my point ! The mood of the country was "if You are against the war or Bush , we don't like you because you are unAmerican. The stations stopped playing the Chicks to appease their listners who fell in line with that thinking.

I wish the staions were strong enough to say we play their music because we are a country station playing country music and we support freedom of speech. But the pressure was so strong to be in step with Bush that most country stations were forced (for financial reasons)(but I don't agree with that in total) to stop playing the Chicks. I believe many stopped playing them because it was the popular thing to do.

Why are the airheads ? Because they came out against the war ?


Thanks Joe, glad you get it now.

[Hawk]

By the way Joe. We've talked "music" before and I respect your music and political opinions. I hope, like my good buddy Rob, that you understand that none of this is personal.

I wished the politicians could debate, then go out and have a cold one. I don't like the atmosphere of "if you don't think like I do, you are my enemy".

Political discussion is good. lonewolf is one of the best at making me rethink things. I like that. I like to think.

[Mistress_DB]

My take on the dixie chics....

I never cared for them all that much. I liked that one song they did (goodbye Earl) but not much more from them. Where I think a lot of people had issue with what Natalie said is that she choose to say it in a foreign country.

[MeYatch]

Hawk, do you remember music when the Dixie Chicks came out with their anti bush album? You couldn't turn a country station on without hearing some bullshit american propaganda song, and you couldn't turn on a rock station without hearing the complete opposite. Fans of country music didn't want to hear what the Dixie Chicks had to say, but their views were hardly unrepresented in the music industry in general.

[Hawk]

I'm not a Dixi Chicks fan nor do I listen to Country stations. I remember how the country stations refused to play them because of their political view and their announcement that they were embarrassed by Bush.

I used that as an example of the "Lockstep mentality" set from the top .

[songsmith]

Political discussion is good. lonewolf is one of the best at making me rethink things. I like that. I like to think.

Word. lonewolf and I don't always agree, but he makes excellent points that often have me questioning my stance on an issue. That questioning of my own opinion is what I feel seperates me from the wingnuts on the fringes.

I had given up on the Dixie Chicks before the Bush thing. The Goodbye Earl song was the final nail in their coffin for me. I even toyed with the idea of penning a song called "Goodbye Cheryl" where the husband kills his errant wife, rolls her body in a rug and sinks it in the pond out back. I'm sure women everywhere would be okay with that, right? Of course not! You don't write a song that paints a woman as either the one at fault or as the victim (well, she can be a victim, but she has to be victorious at the end). Somehow though, you can have the man be the bad guy in any case... apparently, woman versus man equals David versus Goliath. There's that inference that men are stronger, and to defeat them is difficult. So much for being equal.

Anyway, country radio is a cesspool of Britney wannabe's, patronizing pseudo-patriotism, and fashion-consultant-addicted sameness. You can listen for days straight, and hear not one single country song. There's no heart, only money. There's no Hank out there now. No Waylon, or Johnny Cash, or anyone telling the flat-out truth with a flat-top guitar. No "f**k you sneer, or life-weary distant gaze. It's all finely-coiffed, airbrushed metrosexuals singing for menopausal ladies and teeny-boppers. The Dixie Chicks aren't, and never were, the future of country music. Listen to some alt-country, or Americana, or go to the archives.
Or listen to bluegrass. ------->JMS

[nakedtwister]

Gotta agree there John. Country has gone by the way side for the most part. It's basically redneck hip hop if you will. Case in point " Honkey Tonk Bedonkidonk" Or how ever the hell you spell it ( I failed my ebonics class). Just say ass. I like the word ass. "That chick has a nice ass" is alot easier than saying " Dat' Bitch gotta smokin' bedonkidonk" . By the way John thanks for " Bussin' out" the mouth harp and playing with us at the Plaza for RFTT. That was awesome. Made my day. Brian E.

[Banned]

"That chick has a nice ass" is alot easier than saying " Dat' Bitch gotta smokin' bedonkidonk" . By the way John thanks for "

Yo, but you be kickin' it wid style if yous word up about da bedonkidonk.

[Banned]

Political discussion is good. lonewolf is one of the best at making me rethink things. I like that. I like to think.

Word. lonewolf and I don't always agree, but he makes excellent points that often have me questioning my stance on an issue. That questioning of my own opinion is what I feel seperates me from the wingnuts on the fringes.

I had given up on the Dixie Chicks before the Bush thing. The Goodbye Earl song was the final nail in their coffin for me. I even toyed with the idea of penning a song called "Goodbye Cheryl" where the husband kills his errant wife, rolls her body in a rug and sinks it in the pond out back. I'm sure women everywhere would be okay with that, right? Of course not! You don't write a song that paints a woman as either the one at fault or as the victim (well, she can be a victim, but she has to be victorious at the end). Somehow though, you can have the man be the bad guy in any case... apparently, woman versus man equals David versus Goliath. There's that inference that men are stronger, and to defeat them is difficult. So much for being equal.

Anyway, country radio is a cesspool of Britney wannabe's, patronizing pseudo-patriotism, and fashion-consultant-addicted sameness. You can listen for days straight, and hear not one single country song. There's no heart, only money. There's no Hank out there now. No Waylon, or Johnny Cash, or anyone telling the flat-out truth with a flat-top guitar. No "f**k you sneer, or life-weary distant gaze. It's all finely-coiffed, airbrushed metrosexuals singing for menopausal ladies and teeny-boppers. The Dixie Chicks aren't, and never were, the future of country music. Listen to some alt-country, or Americana, or go to the archives.
Or listen to bluegrass. ------->JMS

I agree with most (if not all, a new record ) with Songsmith here. I don't know if Shooter Jennings is considered Country these days, but his music kicks butt.

A question for Hawk, do Americans have the right to think someone is unpatriotic? If the people who listen to and support the crap on Froggy want to boycott some artist for whatever reason, don't they have that right? You or I may not like it, but in a free society, you have that right.

A good discussion question is---in a free society, do you have the right to hate? This hate crime stuff really bothers me. A crime is a crime, what does hating the person have to do with it? This government does not have the right to tell me what to think, God fordib the "thought police".

[Hawk]

Good Joe. Yes, Americans do have the right to think someone is unpatriotic. Even if they're wrong in their thinking. They would be called narrow minded people. And anyone has the right to be narrow minded.

Don't forget. I'm only trying to remind you of the "Lockstep" mood of the country at tah time. And the Chicks was only an example. The point is about the mood, NOT the Chicks.

On the hate crime thing, I'll have to think on that.

It's not about hating a person at all, as you described. Its about NOT hating a person , or even NOT disliking a person. It's about hating a race, or a "lifestyle". So if you kill a person just because he is of a given race, that is a hate crime. If you beat someone up ONLY because he is gay, and no other reason, they tack on some extra punishment.

I have to think about it, but there might be some merit there.

[Hawk]

Question for Joe. Do you think I'm not patriotic because I'm against the war ? Do you think I'm unpatriotic because I think Bush is and always has been wrong ?

Four years ago nearly EVERYONE would have said I am unpatriotic.
Today, perhaps only 20% of the people would label me that way.

[Hawk]

Question for Joe. Do you think I'm not patriotic because I'm against the war ? Do you think I'm unpatriotic because I think Bush is and always has been wrong ?

Four years ago nearly EVERYONE would have said I am unpatriotic.
Today, perhaps only 20% of the people would label me that way.

Never mind. Don't answer that. That's just me continuing the bickering that is going nowhere.

If we discuss political issues, let's agree to keep it in light of solving problems instead of bickering .

[Banned]

Hawk, I think you care about this country very much, and that is very patriotic. I just think you look to the government for the answer way too much. The Constitution is a document that specifically limits the central goverments power, but that does not happen anymore. That is why I am such a big Ron Paul supporter, we need our government to follow the Constitution, and stop micromanaging our lives, and running up $9 trillion debts.

There are unpatriotic ways to be anti-war, like Kerry calling US soldiers baby killers and John Murtha calling them murders (BTW, Murtha called the Marines in the Haditha incident murderers, before the report was even filed, and now all the charges have been dropped because the Iraqi "citizens" who reported the supposed atrocities were actually found to be Al Queda. Where is Murtha's apology?)

The Constitution is a document that specifically limits the central goverments power, but that does not happen anymore. That is why I am such a big Ron Paul supporter, we need our government to follow the Constitution, and stop micromanaging our lives.

[Hawk]

Hawk, I think you care about this country very much, and that is very patriotic. I just think you look to the government for the answer way too much. The Constitution is a document that specifically limits the central goverments power, but that does not happen anymore. That is why I am such a big Ron Paul supporter, we need our government to follow the Constitution, and stop micromanaging our lives, and running up $9 trillion debts.

There are unpatriotic ways to be anti-war, like Kerry calling US soldiers baby killers and John Murtha calling them murders (BTW, Murtha called the Marines in the Haditha incident murderers, before the report was even filed, and now all the charges have been dropped because the Iraqi "citizens" who reported the supposed atrocities were actually found to be Al Queda. Where is Murtha's apology?)

The Constitution is a document that specifically limits the central goverments power, but that does not happen anymore. That is why I am such a big Ron Paul supporter, we need our government to follow the Constitution, and stop micromanaging our lives.

That's a good start to open a discussion.

Could you name some specifics ? Things the Federal Government should stop doing ? And the perceived consequences of such actions ?

I think the US should protect us. That probably covers more programs than what you would like to see.

[MatchstikDrummer]

I agree that we should be protected but it isn't governments job to provide for us....that's my responsibility as a father and husband. If the government can't manage Social Security correctly what makes anyone think Socialized healthcare would work?

[RobTheDrummer]

Yea, we're already trillions upon trillions of dollars in debt as Bill pointed out, yet the left are the ones that want Socialized health care? How are we gonna pay for that? People bitch about gas being expensive.

[Hawk]

Ok , the two of you have stated your opinions. Yet I'm guessing you will admit there is an affordable health care problem.

So you made a point to say 'This is not a way to fix the problem'.

But now the question needs to be ask. How do we fix it ?

I need to hear and understand more about Hillary's and Obama's plan. But the little I've heard about each of them, they do make some sense. But I won't comment until I understand their plans.

I know Joe won't like this (Joe, we need to go out and hear some good live music and have a few beers) but the government is going to have to get involved in some capacity. No, I don't want a totally socialized health care system. But we need some kind of compromise.

[Hawk]

The government is there to protect us. The products safety commission has been gutted in favor of smaller government. There is ONE MAN ! who is in charge of toys. One man to oversee the safety of all toys.

I have friends who have a three year old who can't talk and is slow learning . He recently tested very high for lead. Sucks ! Their house has been checked an no lead was found in the house.

[songsmith]

Yea, we're already trillions upon trillions of dollars in debt as Bill pointed out, yet the left are the ones that want Socialized health care? How are we gonna pay for that? People bitch about gas being expensive.

Well, first, I don't really support 100% government sponsorship of healthcare, what the right-wing calls "socialized medicine" (when you hear that phrase, you're already being spun). Now you know my stance. But...

One needs to keep in mind that we (the gov't) wouldn't be paying $3 for an aspirin, or $30 for a disposable gown that never gets issued. The gov't would know what the wholesale value is, pay that, and a rich fat-ass would have to play one less round of golf tomorrow morning. A pharmacol executive would have to buy a hot tub that seats 8 instead of 12. I know that's a kick in the right-wing gut, and limits the "Free Market Economy" but the "Free Market Economy" is the reason for the crisis in the first place. Not having oversight of greedy soul-less f*cks has led to the medical industry charging us at a rate that far, far, FAR outstrips inflation. In this "free market," let's say you break your leg... do you go from hospital to hospital, checking prices, haggling and such? No, they have you by the curlies. You pay, mothertrucker.
The other thing to keep in mind in the healthcare debate is when the media points out horror-stories from countries with gov't healthcare, like an old lady who didn't get an operation, are they telling you how many old ladies GOT the operation, did the old lady have to have a lien put on her house, and does the guy telling the story have a healthcare package as part of the contract his agent negotiated. Maybe we all just need a good agent.
The healthcare industry does not want gov't healthcare, not because of how the patient will be affected, but because they would have to deal with competition. They would then have to BID on gov't contracts in a PUBLIC forum, instead of sequestering in a posh boardroom. We'd know how much things really cost.

Again, it boils down to the wingnuts. On the left wing, they want us to give everything to people who don't deserve it because they don't want to work for it. On the right wing, they want us to give everything to people who don't deserve it because they're ripping off the people who DO work for it. I believe the answer is in the middle, but the media's succeeded in splitting us and polarizing us. We argue while the money pours out of our pockets.------------->JMS

[nakedtwister]

That's a good start to open a discussion.

Could you name some specifics ? Things the Federal Government should stop doing ? And the perceived consequences of such actions ?

I think the US should protect us. That probably covers more programs than what you would like to see.[/quote]


I remember when I lived in Maryland long ago , Reagan proposed a plan that would have less fortunate people on assistance work for their money. He stated in his plan that people would do certain jobs such as beautification and clean up of D.C. for instance. Guess what. Several institutions including Congress shot it down,saying it was unconstitutional to make people work for the monies and benifits they receive. This is what we have to deal with. What do we do. No matter who gets elected to run the country, anything of important value to improve the country seems to get shut down. I guess it's better to bankrupt a nation than to hurt anyone feelings or pride.

[whitedevilone]

Whenever people start talking about healthcare i have to laugh.Who needs the help?Middle class working folks who by hook or crook make ends meet.But who does Billery and all the other halfwits talk about?The poor ,the inner city poor ,and the poor starving babies laying in the streets.Give me a break.Where are all the starving babies in America if there are any they've been sold down the river by lousy parenting and the lack of motivation to start with.The welfare class has been sucking off the gov tit for 40 years now.Have many upgraded?Moved out of their socal classes?No we've only created the great handout society.Take a look at the ninth ward it's the same now as two years ago.You can only blame a dumbass like Bush for so long untill somebody gets off their own ass and helps themselves.Government run healthcare?Just another excuse for another handout that the middle class will never see anyhow.

[Hawk]

That's a good start to open a discussion.

Could you name some specifics ? Things the Federal Government should stop doing ? And the perceived consequences of such actions ?

I think the US should protect us. That probably covers more programs than what you would like to see.

I remember when I lived in Maryland long ago , Reagan proposed a plan that would have less fortunate people on assistance work for their money. He stated in his plan that people would do certain jobs such as beautification and clean up of D.C. for instance. Guess what. Several institutions including Congress shot it down,saying it was unconstitutional to make people work for the monies and benifits they receive. This is what we have to deal with. What do we do. No matter who gets elected to run the country, anything of important value to improve the country seems to get shut down. I guess it's better to bankrupt a nation than to hurt anyone feelings or pride.

Hawk's response :

What a wide grandiose statement that is not thought through to any logical conclusion.

Who would define who "the less fortunate" are ? Anyone without a job ? That covers a wide range of people. If YOU lose your job, would you mind if that gave ME the authority to tell you how to live ? Where to work ? When to work ? And how to work ? Or would you rather spend time looking for a job within your own expertise ? If I say "you have NO CHOICE because it is the law. I will force you to work or let you starve." I mean, come on, how close is that to slavery.

BTW that is PURE Communism. Everyone works ! Talk about a socialist government. I thought you were against socialism ? That's what you think is a good idea ? ! Wake up please !

NOW, the last time I was in D.C. it was quite clean ! Are you suggesting that the government fire those people , and then what ? Force them into labor to clean D.C. .

Please, you took the time to quote me. "Can you name some things the government should stop doing THEN follow through with your argument with the perceived consequences . " I taught that to my kids when they were little. If you make a decision, what are the consequences ? Can you accept those consequences ?

[Hawk]

Whenever people start talking about healthcare i have to laugh.Who needs the help?Middle class working folks who by hook or crook make ends meet.But who does Billery and all the other halfwits talk about?The poor ,the inner city poor ,and the poor starving babies laying in the streets.Give me a break.Where are all the starving babies in America if there are any they've been sold down the river by lousy parenting and the lack of motivation to start with.The welfare class has been sucking off the gov tit for 40 years now.Have many upgraded?Moved out of their socal classes?No we've only created the great handout society.Take a look at the ninth ward it's the same now as two years ago.You can only blame a dumbass like Bush for so long untill somebody gets off their own ass and helps themselves.Government run healthcare?Just another excuse for another handout that the middle class will never see anyhow.

Seems to me when they talk about health care, they are talking about EVERYONE who is not covered. Another example of a wide sweeping statement that is wrong. Why ? Doesn't read or follow the news ? Or has been propagandized .

I remind you since you don't follow the news. Clinton CUT welfare. Tony Snow (G.W.'s former mouthpiece) Bragged that "more money has been spent on the poor under George Bush than any other president".

Propagandised : Democrats cater to the welfare. Republicans spend more money on the poor.

BTW as I have stated many times. The amount spent on welfare is minuscule compared to the rest of the budget.

Ronald Reagen, Bush Senior and G.W. are solely responsible for 70% of the deficit !