A HUGE DISAPPOINMENT

[shadesofjuneGuitar]

Hey...

Went to the Sevendust show last night in Station Square Pittsburgh and was thoroughly shocked at what occurred.

There were four bands last night and the first three sounded completely fine. The room lacked a little in the acoustics department, but what are you going to do?

Then Sevendust came out on stage and played "Black".. It rocked. The next song was "Denial" and it was cool, but then the disappointment hit me.

The guitarist was playing a solo and the next thing I knew, he wasn't playing anymore and the solo continued for about 8-10 notes.

After seeing this, I became more perceptive and realized that there were a ton of instances where there were more instruments playing than there were on stage. This was apparent to other people as well, so I am not the only person who was floored by this.

Then I found out that they were running DAT tracks along with playing. While still playing their songs, they were following a click track to stay in time with the recorded tracks. This enhances the sound drastically, BUT WTF. I went to see them play live, not have a jam-a-long session with a CD. I absolutely couldn't believe what I was seeing/hearing.

[BDR]

Milli Vanilli returns in the form of a "rock band."

Yeah, that's crap. Live performance is one of the most important criteria for me when I decide if I dig a band or not. Any "turd" can go into a studio and get shined up. I'm not saying this is the case with Sevendust (never saw them) but it seems if I would've seen something like this, I'd feel the same way you do...kinda ripped off and wantin' my money back.

Just play it live, people.

r:>)

[SUperstar]

Thats weak!! Are they still managed by Jay Jay French from Twisted Sister? He knows a lot about doing whats commercial. That would suck hard!! What a waste of a show!

[bassist_25]

That does suck! A lot of bands do it though. A lot of live recordings are also over-dubbed in a studio. Kiss's Alive has huge production on it for a live album. You would also be surprised at how many recordings are not the actual members of a band playing. It's common practice to hire studio musicians to "ghost" on songs that are to complicated for the official band members to play.

[April]

wow, never expected a real band to pull a Brittney Spears! I guess I can't hate you anymore since the concert was a rip off. (well, maybe I still hate you just a little bit.)

[redawg]

I got a ton of Evanescence vid clips and concerts in my hard drive. They play along with their own stuff too. They don't add any guitars or anything. They add keyboard parts and all of Amy's vocal harmonies. I do have a few clips without them doing that but most of the time they do. That doesn't bother me at all. It does bother me if they add guitar tracks. That is weak.

[facingwest]

I like to hear the recreation of the CD live with the musicians avaliable. Sometimes musicians just don't have enough limbs to cover all the work on an album (Thanks to the record producer). I do feel it's a rip off when parts are doubled or created when you have enough people to already to it on stage. I see this a lot with vocals and it's a disappointment. Yeah you know how to play your instrument, but vocals and harmonies are just as important as the music. (I'm not knocking any locals at all, but the professionals that do music as their sole living.) One instance that stands out is the last time I saw Boston in concert. They had 6 guys and 1 lady on stage, yet they weren't pulling off the vocal parts (Two of the guys were lead vocalists too). They were playing More Than A Feeling and Fran Cosmo's voice was hooked into a freaking vocal harmonizer. If you look at their website, they mention how great the bass player's saprano vocals are, yet she never did one single high harmony from the older records. The guitars also sounded jumbled because of 5 guys playing guitar at once. Guess you could call that one an overkill. heh We ended up leaving half way through the show completely disgusted.

[The Face in the Face]

weeeeeeeaaaaaakkkkkk. so weak.

[the herald]

a lot of bands trap themselves into this because when they originaly record the song they use sequencers ,drum machines, loops , samples, etc. done over sometimes 20 or more tracks when they play live theres no way to cover all the bases unless the y hire 10 people , now if i see a rock band that uses all guitars trying to fake it thats a little ridiculous, i used to play in a industrial band, i tell you what, every jam session i would get a headache it was like working on a computer all day l;ong the sounds were cool but i said *&%$ this im going back to playing guitar unfortunately even bands like pink floyd mix tracks with there live stuff because of all the loops and samples in there music they almost have to but, i have respect for them because we all know they sarted out one of they most raw live un commercial bands of their time, its sad today that kids are spoiled with all of the dat machines and computers and stuff its nice to hear good ol raw rock and roll now and again!!!!!!!!!

[MOONDOGGY]

Keyboard and background vocals- I can kinda see why they'd be used in backing tracks, but how hard would it be and how much more money would it be to get a real keyboardist, or more backing vocals to go on tour with the band???

As much as they are worn out on the radio, I always get a kick out of seeing live clips of Skynard. They always had an army of people on stage, and they all looked like they had a blast taking turns soloing. If there were empty spots where some background chords or vocals would benefit the song/performance, they had them filled. I kinda admire that.

[SUperstar]

I got a ton of Evanescence vid clips and concerts in my hard drive. They play along with their own stuff too. They don't add any guitars or anything. They add keyboard parts and all of Amy's vocal harmonies. I do have a few clips without them doing that but most of the time they do. That doesn't bother me at all. It does bother me if they add guitar tracks. That is weak.

Well seeing how bad she sucks singin live they should just play them all back for a concert... Uggh.... saw them (not really by choice) and she couldn;t hit a right note if it hot her first!!!!

[Banned]

Sometimes it makes a person wonder how much"talent" some of these new bands really have,I guess the biz is not about how good a person can play or sing,it's about what will make the record companies the most money,what a bunch of crap!

[Big Jim]

Now that we've heard about Sevendust, would anyone be upset with "local" bands using some "backing tracks" or extra instruments (keys, sequencers, etc.) during their shows?

I know I've seen it locally, and I don't care for it. How 'bout you?

[daveb]

I saw Moby a few years ago at the Rolling Rock Town Fair. He obviously uses sequencers and DAT. He makes no bones about it. The stage announcer must have had a hard on for him because after he was done playing, he started ragging on him for having half of his show on tape. He went on and on and wouldn't let it go. Then he said you'll really love this next band; they play their own instruments. The next band was Filter. The first song they did had a drum loop running the whole way through it. Both acts were really good. I saw NIN and they also use sequencers and DAT. They kick much ass live. Their music still has power and life. It doesn't seem chained down to the machinery. Years ago I saw Yes on the 90125 tour. I was amazed at how well they covered all the parts in their songs. I later read an interview with the two extra keyboard players that also sang. They were located below the stage!!. Hey, why not put them on stage too? I felt way more decieved by that than the Filter, Moby, NIN show. Also, this one time in band camp, I took a one day job for C+C Music Factory as local crew for one of their shows. I was helping to rig lighting gear as all the other local crew were removed from the gym. They did their "sound check".... There were only two live mikes on the whole stage. One vocal and the mike in front of the bass rig. Now that's what I call a rip off.
In response to the entry that says local bands take part in these practices. I say unless you are doing electronica or industrial, you should go out there, plug in and cram it as loud as you can with out the safety net. That's what paying the dues is about.

[Ronnyd]

At last some-one noticed.
Karoke ,d-j's .seqencers,Wow!
What took you so long.It always pretty with us ,BUT IT"S L I V E!
Thanks April How's every-thing going?
Ronny.

[Ronnyd]

I meant it ain't always Pretty!

[bassist_25]

. Then he said you'll really love this next band; they play their own instruments. The next band was Filter.

The irony is that Filter wrote a disclaimer in the Short Bus insert, proudly proclaiming that they use electronic instruments. I don't mind if a band uses keyboard sampling, pads, loops, ect. in their music. I'm into bands like Filter, NIN, Stabbing Westward, Girls Against Boys, ect.

[tornandfrayed]

There is also an issue about who actually does the sequencing for productions. We don't use anything like thast but I have done alot of solo stuff and pop that used synths. It is not "easy" to get that stuff sounding human. It takes a bit of talent to get the feel and the right sound. I guess there is a time and a place for everything. I would be pissed off if I felt someone was trying to be deceptive about it. Bands like Filter and NIN who acknowledge the use of electronics is one thing, but Sevendust Lip syncing to a DAT is a different thing all together.

[April]

If I wanna hear a live band sound perfect I'll pop in the CD. There's good things to be said about real raw music. listening for imperfections is part of what makes going to a concert more interesting than listening to the CD. I do agree that there is a time and place for prerecorded sounds. If you are going to see Moby or NIN you already know that that's the whole schtick. They are not trying to convince you otherwise. But why do you need a prerecorded guitar solo when you have a guitar in your hands???

[April]

hey RonnyD, how are ya? tell Adam and Missy I said hi and I miss them. haven't seen them in ages. I might have to make a trip out and see you guys play sometime soon.

[poolpimp911]

I agree I went to ozzfest and saw POD play. They were the worst band that I have herd. They sounded worse then a band just learning to play. They did not even know some of the lyric's to their own songs. Then I go and see local band's. That is where the real music is. Live where anything can happen. People coming on stage, amps going crazy, beer on everything, fights, and crazy women showing anything that they want. That is where the TRUE players are in the game.

[tonefight]

As far as sequencers and stuff go a couple years back we were getting tired of just playing acoustic so we spent entirely too much money on drum machines and keyboards with midi playback only to use it for a couple of shows and say "nah, lets get a band back together" . It felt like cheating and it was a big pain in the ass.

As far as producing too much stuff on an album... yeah most bands do it, the record companies probably have alot to do with it. We saw fleetwood mac last year and in addition to the actual band there were 2 guitar players a key player, an additional drummer , percussionist and 2 back up vocalists. So I'm pretty sure it was all real. I was never that big on there recorded material but they were one of the better shows I've seen

[tornandfrayed]

Lindsey Buckingham is one of the greatest under-rated guitar players of our time. The "Say You Will" CD is worth it just to hear his playing, it is awesome! Synths can be a pain in the ass, but the creative process takes many different shapes. Some people work with guitars, some words, some a canvas and some use synths and sequencers.

[FatVin]

First of all, I must confess, I'm not terribly familiar with Sevendust, but Let me say this:

Lip Syncing is, WRONG WRONG WRONG, UNLESS YOU ARE SHOOTING A VIDEO! Anyone, ANYONE, who lip-syncs on stage should branded with a scarlet 'L" in the middle of their friggin forehead!, It's as bad as that other tool of Satan, Karaoke!

Having said that, let me say that it's VERY tempting, while in the studio, to bring in a piano or an accordian or a horn or two maybe, knowing full well that you're not gonna have it live, (we've done it)

my rule of thumb on that, is this: if the song doesn't work without it, it doesn't work with it. and if a song doesn't work, what is it doing on your CD?

On our second CD, there is one song where we overdubbed some keyboard but we played it live, last night, without the keys, and it worked just fine, and there is another song where we brought in an accordian, we played the song last night, sans accordian, and it worked just fine.

You know why? they are good solid songs to begin with and while the "Extra's" added a little to the atmosphere on the CD, both songs stand up by themselves. One of them was even covered once by an accoustic act, here locally. (I couldn't have been more flattered)

My point here is this: It's all about the songs, if you write a good song, all the extra stuff in the studio can only add to it and if you play it stripped down, live, and it still stands up, then you've done your job as a songwriter.

Lindsey Buckingham is an excellant SONGWRITER and his songs stand up whether you play them with the USC Trojan Marching Band, or just an accoustic guitar.

and if you've written good songs yours will too,

These Sevendust guys....I don't know their stuff so I can't really comment on their songwriting but the object lesson, to me, is this:

When in the studio, don't let your alligator mouth overtake your hummingbird ass.

That "Other people do it" doesn't make it okay, I don't care who it is, Moby, Bratney Spears (sic) whoever, it just confirms my suspicions and deepens my contempt for what sadly passes as pop music. You are either a musician or you are not, enough said.

As to "fixing a live album", actually, that doesn't bother me as much provided that you keep the sprit of the performance on the track, someone mentioned "KISS, Alive", Sorry, but I think "Huge Production" is a gross overstatement,
Touching up a vocal harmony here, and a guitar flub there, is okay, which is what KISS did. I think it would be okay to, say, double the audience track for effect, something KISS also did on "Alive" but to overdub an audience track to studio cut tunes would be wrong.
You do "hear with your eyes" to a point, mistakes that go unnoticed in the moment, will show up huge on tape and I think it's okay to go back and fix them as long as you don't completely overhaul the track to do it. It's what the french call a "Coup De Jarnac" it's a little sneaky but within the rules of fair play.



On a side note: I would like to thank a certain gentlemen, well known to those of us here on Rockpage, for bringing his lovely wife out to Shan-Nicole's last night to see Fat Vinny & The Wiseguys, She said (shouted, really) something I NEVER thought I'd hear coming from an member of the audience within 100 miles of this town,

She said,"Play some originals!"

Thanks, doll, happy to.

SUPPORT LIVE MUSIC!

[tornandfrayed]

And the originals did flow and the party went on. A small club in Hollidaysburg was oozing with big, wet, globs of the blues. I could not have asked for more.

I believe that you have a strong point with the songwriting skills belief. If you can't play it with an acoustic guitar out by the firepit then maybe you better look for a stronger hook. I would never lip sync ( although some might prefer it! LOL! ) and I think that most of us agree on that.

I have to believe though that the record companies get these guys to sell their souls for a chance to make it big and then once you do what are you willing to pervert in order to maintain it.

At least Robert only had to worry about his soul, he got to do what he wanted when he was here.