Led Zep and Satan

[FatVin]

Yea Swaggart's scandal was fun, but the real highlight of those for me was watching the Baker's and the whole Jessica Hahn thing,

It's amazing that there are still people who will look you in the eye and tell you that they are right and the rest of us are wrong no matter how many holes you find in their logic and that "it's not for us to question"

Well If it's not for us to question, why then were we created with curiosity?
I consider myself to be pretty smart but I'm NOT THAT SMART so if a thing can't stand up to MY scruitiny, to me, it's not a worthwhile thing.

It's funny, I believe in (for lack of a better word) God, but I can't stand most churches. Yes, Jesus died for our sins but how does that entitle YOU to 10% of my earnings?

and Don't even get me started on the church interfereing in politics down thru the ages......

Anybody ever see "Leap of Faith" with Steve Martin? it's about money and power and control of the masses. A lot of these people can't stand the fact that kids would rather listen to Led Zeppelin and any other music that makes them feel good, than their sermons telling them that they are bad cause 6000 years ago some lady bit into an apple.

it's about control.

[Staceman]

This topic also brings a few songs to mind. Holy Smoke by Maiden, Send Me Your Money by Suicidal Tendancies, and Miracle Man by Ozzy.

Also, "TV Crimes" from Black Sabbath w/Dio, from the awesome '92 Dehumanizer album.

[Punkinhead]

stairway to heaven doesnt really say that, that site is lying. we took the record and spun it backwards......

[bassist_25]

of course if I weighed the same as a duck, it would have to be a pretty big fuckin duck

"But the advantage of being a duck, is that you can move more easily through the water" - Michael Kelso

Seriously though, about the comic; Jack Chick is a fanatic. He's against everybody from rockers to Catholics to Jews to homosexuals to Muslims to Mormons to D&D players. I agree though, it's a scary thought to know people think that way. On the other hand, I think it's cool when someone has real faith. A few weeks ago, I went down to Subway on my lunch break. While I was there, I saw a man sit down and say a quiet prayer before eating. I thought that was pretty cool. A lot of people just pay the lip service without really thinking about what they believe in. I don't know as much about theology as I probaly should. As far as me, I'm a Unitarian Universalist. (betcha didn't see that comin' )

[FatVin]

A lot of people just pay the lip service without really thinking about what they believe in.

I agree completely but churches as a whole don't exactly encourage you to question things either. They want you to say what they tell you to say and think the "Right thoughts"

I know I'm generalizing, There are a whole lot of churches and religious organizations that do what they say they are supposed to do, good and charitble work and if the rituals give you comfort then by all means go and enjoy.

but what I object to is when they guilt you into submission, make you feel bad about, your body, your life, your life style, your choice of accessories (earrings, noserings etc), your haircut, or your clothes just to get a few more bucks in the collection plate.

Try going to church sometime without a tie and check the looks you get from people, try going in a robe and sandals (what Jesus wore) and see how people react, you'll be lucky if they don't call the cops.

You call yourself a "Unitarian Universalist", I have no idea what that means, I would call myself a Fanatical Fundamentalist Agnostic. The Fanatical Fundamentalist part is a satire on certain sects of Christians (Davey Koresh, Jim Jones) and Muslims (Taliban, those kinds of people, Few real Muslims are either Fanatical or fundamentalist and those that are give the rest a bad name) The Agnostic part just means That I believe in God, I'm just not thrilled with the idea of a Church, and that there should be a distiction made between the traditions of man and the edicts of God, technically speaking it's more of a philosphical position that a sect but, I can defend it intellectually and that's enough, remember what I said earlier about things being able to stand up to scrutiny.

You're right, true faith is rare but what do you have faith in, The Dogma of a given Church? The people who administer that Dogma, the rituals that enforce it, or what?

I know we've stumbled into some VERY deep philosophical waters here but my point is I don't get the right answers from traditional religion, I get "It's is not ours to question, my son" (make buzzer noise here, WRONG ANSWER!) or I get biblical refernces that more often than contradict themsleves or each other, or I get a look that resembles deer caught in the headlights of M1A1 main battle tank. having said all that let us not forget that I'm a recovering drunk with 10 years sober by the grace of God! The one and only answer that even remotley makes sense is God? Yes! Church? no.

Some of you may have different experince, this ajourns Philosophy 101.

[bassist_25]

Good post, Vinny.

To answer your inquiry about "Unitarian Universalism": It's actually a synergy of two thoughts: Unitarianism, and Universalism. You see, the trinity wasn't always a strict belief in early Christainity. It wasn't until 325 CE that the Council of Nicea came up with the idea of the trinity. Many people still held a belief in God being one being, and those people became Unitarians. In the later centuries, scholars studied the Bible closely and came up with the conclusion that God could not be venegeful and all humans were worthy of salvation; those people were known as the Universalists. Eventually, the two beliefs came together to form UU. Even though UU began as a branch of Christainity, it has grown to accomodate many faiths. The concentration isn't on dogma, but on seeking truth and finding one's spiritual-self. Much of the grounds of UU is based on science, and logic. If you want to know more, you can check out http://www.uua.org/

[bassist_25]

Oh, and as far as your belief in God, and the distiction of God and man; we would be getting into some heavy existentialism there. Keep in mind though, while existentialism is associated with athiest such as Sartre, and Camus, the very fist existentialist were actually Christains. It goes further than walking around saying, "Life is absurd". Maybe as logical beings, humans try to look at absurd things, and rationalize them until they make sense. (But isn't the first path of the 8-fold path, to simply recognize things as they are? Now we're getting into Buddhism here.) Any way, I hold the belief that if someone searches for answers, they will find them. It just won't be as easy as reading a book or turning on a TV. If someone wants to work for enlightenment, they will find it. If someone searches for Christ, they will find him. The first step in any theological discussion though is to quit thinking in terms of "Us" and "Them". I'm not saying to give up your identity and become part of the mass. It's just so hard to argue "right" and "wrong" when you're talking about such abstract concepts. We just have to recognize everyone as being on a path of life. That might just sound like typical bleeding-heart liberal rhetoric, but it's people like Jack Chick, Swaggart, Bin Laden, Hitler ect. who like to think in in-groups and out-groups, to manipulate the masses.

[facingwest]

Writing a song to have a message backwards? Whether it comes out that way or not, I really don't buy it. Hell, it takes that much effort just to write a decent song, let alone writing it so there's a backward's meaning. Besides, who is really going to listen to something backwards?!?! They must have too much time on their hands or they're the ones that particular meaning is for maybe? heh

[Punkinhead]

Slayer, in Hell Awaits, did put a sort of subliminal message:

Join Us
Join Us
Join Us
Join Us

but that was intended...

[FatVin]

Bassist_25 wrote:

It's just so hard to argue "right" and "wrong" when you're talking about such abstract concepts.

That's what's fun about philosophy, isn't it. I gotta say I'm more than a little impressed.

It's not so much existentialsim as it is a brief survey of human history, you talk about getting rid of "the 'us' and 'Them' factor", can you even begin to imagine how much misery the human race could avoid if we could only manage to do that, somehow.

Can anyone deny that the chief cause of strife on our blue orb is quibbling over which version of the message of peace and brotherhood is the correct one.

Let me hit that again cause I want the Irony to sink in:

People are killed, maimed, tortured, displaced and made to suffer a million indignities because someone else doesn't like their version of the message of peace and brotherhood.

Don't misunderstand me, this doesn't mean that your local, padre, reverend or vicker is a bad guy, here in toon town, he's probably not.

If the rituals of your church give you comfort, or you enjoy the show, or what ever reason a person might find their church a positive experience in their life, I'm the person to keep them away from that, but one should not, in my opinion, blindly carry the banner for a set of beliefs without knowing what it is they actually stand for, where this group has been and what their history is.

basic Socrates "an unexamined life is not worth living"

It just seems to me that if the "religious peoples" of the world really and truly walked what they talked, if Christians really payed attention to the words of Jesus, if Jews really payed attention to the words of the Tora, if Muslims really did "submit" to the will of Allah there would be a lot less misery here on earth.

I would not be surprised to learn that Jesus, Moses and Mohammed are all sitting together at the Heavenly bar and grill crying in their beers over the crap that is carried on in their names.

How is it then that we the common folk DON'T hold our religious leaders to a higher standard? Well because the way I see the early church fathers bult in a power structure and for the first 6000 years of human existence, ordinary folk weren't even allowed to see the text from which most sermon's were preached.

until Gutenberg, only the high born even knew how to read and write because they were the only ones who needed to, the rest of humanity got the message second hand, so churchmen had built in authority, that kind of authority is inherently dangerous, it was absolute power and it corrupted, look at history.

I'm not saying church is bad, I'm saying be careful of what you're being told and watch your wallet.

[Punkinhead]

here is my beliefs, mary magdalene, the most famous "prostitute" actually was Jesus' wife. She was to be the leader of the apostles. Peter challenged her and ousted her, since then, women had how many years of oppression because of the words of the incomplete man made book? which by the way, is missing about some 80 chapters, and one big document that Jesus himself wrote. This world has been doomed to hell since that moment, like it or not.

there is but one message that all religions center around, and everyone is too fucking dumb to see it. its all our own faults. if someone would actually see whats really going on and try to change it, he/she would be blasted with 1,000,000,000 cries of heresy and blasphemy, even though the cries themselves would be unknowingly blasphemous.

religion is within yourself. if you go to church and still molest children, or something to a lesser degree, the church doesn't save you.

[bassist_25]

Much of it comes from the fact that humans try to identify themselves within the matrix of reality. (See, I told you we were going to be getting into existentialsim ) People define themselves by their beliefs, the organizations they are part of, their background, ect. In reality those things aren't even ancillary to what people really are. Most people I know always comment on how laid back I am about things. I tell them it's simple; I don't worry about trivial and asinine things. I don't identify myself with parts of my life; they are just there to be practical in my living. An example would be: I buy a car, not for status reasons, but because it gets me from point A to point B. And that's not to say I would buy a bucket of rust just because, it suits a practical purpose; I would buy a car that satisfies my own comfort. I have to drive the thing almost everyday, I might as well get something that I WILL ENJOY, NOT JUST BECAUSE IT MAKES ME LOOK LIKE A BIG SHOT. It's the same with the concept of freedom. I would die for freedom, not because I identify myself with freedom, but because I recognize it as a valuable concept that should be protected; And my own Ego isn't even a variable in the whole equation.

But as the great philosopher, Steven Hyde, once said, "Where Zen ends, ass kicking begins".

[FatVin]

All hail Stephen Hyde, the Prophet,

Truth, is truth, but wisdom is where you find it.

Do you know the difference between intelligence and Wisdom?

Intelligence is being able to calculate the speed at which a huge boulder is falling, wisdom is getting out of the way before it hits you.

Bassist_25, there is a book you might enjoy

The Tao of Pooh, by Benjamin Hoff

Check it out, if nothing else the writing is amusing.

[the herald]

i guess this is the closest well get to having a rockpage campfire story i want my momma!!!!!

[DMFJ03]

.truh niarb ym ginkam si daerth elohw siht, woW.

[songsmith]

Good post about the matrix of reality, but I see it as "matrices." Einstein felt that time is relative to the observer. In order for there to be "time," there has to be a conscious entity to observe it and be acted upon by it. My personal belief is that this entity is the "physical" evidence of the soul. Anyway, since there are so many "observers," each with their own observance of reality, each observer has their own matrix of reality, and their own definition of something/someone that ties it all together into an explanation... like God.
Now do you see what happens when I run out of kindbud? 8:30am and I'm waist deep in Existentialism.
"I am this Lightning! I am this Frenzy!" -- Nietzche, in the final dopesick throes of morphine addiction. I don't know what it means, but I always thought it'd be a cool song lyric. Inner peace out.---->JMS