The PLCB the petition and Everything

[FatVin]

My first instinct was to get out my thesaurus and empty my vast vocabulary of pejoritives, just unleash total flamage on you all, but it occurs to me that while it would make me feel better it probably be counter productive so here goes straight and to the point.

Ran into JP the other night, he gave me all the signed petitions that he has and it comes to a whopping total of 134 signatures

We need about 100 times that to even have a prayer of getting the noise gestapo off our backs.

What are you gonna do about it?

In post after post I've heard a lot of you exclaim your outrage but it doesn't seem to come to much.

Are we gonna organize? great, then let's actually do it

Are we gonna have a meeting? great, then let's actually do it

Are we gonna hold a fundraiser? great, then let's actually do it

Are we gonna make some sort of protest? great, then let's actually do it

What's up Rockpagers?

[DMFJ03]

I signed it.

[lonewolf]

I'd like to re-post one of my "bumps" from the "Mad as Hell" thread before it faded into obscurity in the face of countless fluffy and irrelevant new topics. It is another possibility to add to Vinny's list of actions:

So what's up with this?

Upon closer examination, it looks as though select bars under the jurisdiction of the Blair County division of the LCE are getting targeted.

I'm not sure about the intown bars, but Beer Bellies is out of town and is also soundproofed. What's up with that?

Perhaps we should pay a visit to the local LCE commander's office and ask him point blank why this is happening and what can be done to stop it?

[Skate Toad]

I offered to originize a benefit and i got little intrest. I still stand by my original offer to orginize the event. I've already got Aldo's ok to do it just about any sunday evening we desire. I'm no good with legal mumbo jumbo but i can setup a show pretty darned well. So i understand your pain Vin but i speak for myself i know my limits but i'm ready to do what i said i would. I think if we did a benefit and tried to get some local officials and some club owners there it's a start. Also I think trying to get media coverage there would be a bonus. If we can get some intrest sparked by our local officials which will pull more weight than a bunch of musicians wanting better rights. I'm not placing blame i agree with you Vin that we tend to talk more than act on here. So i'm just waiting for some disscussion on when and if we wanna do an awareness show. I think a meeting would be wise but once again we need to agree on when and where to meet. I suggest a sunday evening at Aldo's, it doesn't intrude on show schedules and it's big enough that we can sit down and plan a course of action. Even appoint people to different tasks etc etc.

Thats where i'm at. If there is something else that needs done let me know i'll see what i can do. I know i signed the petition and as soon as we get back to playing i know i'll have a copy there and try to get the sigs.
Todd

[byndrsn]

I hope to make a few points that will hopefully not piss everyone off.

1st, I signed the petition, and although that is a good starting point - I don't care if you have 100 names or 100,000 names on it - petitions are not effective.

2nd, a fundraiser is a great idea, but if you are talking about it for lobbying purposes - it takes a TON of money to lobby effectively. But, I think that again it would be a great start.

3rd, organizing is the best idea I've heard about on here, but I would bet that (like most organizations I've belonged to) we will have 50-100 people saying that they are totally into this and only about 5 or 6 who actually do anything. That is just reality.

4th, I don't think getting the media involved is a good idea. If we were an organized front that were all speaking the same intelligent language about the problem, then maybe. But you run the risk of having everything blow up in your face if you get the media involved. They like controversy, they thrive on it. They could go out and interview "Good Upstanding Tax Paying Citizens" who are unfortunate enough to live beside a bar that has live music. If that happens - look out!!! Not to mention that if you send out a message to all those reading the newspaper and watching the evening news that all they have to do is make a phone call and complain about the noise - well, I'm sure you get my meaning here.

And 5th, I don't think protests are going to help in any way shape or form.

Just my 2 cents,
Urbs

[lonewolf]

I tend to agree, Urbs. Originally, I thought this was a statewide problem, but that is not the case.

That is why I like the idea of going directly to the source of the problem-the Blair County LCE commander-and asking point-blank why certain bars are being targeted without complaint in their jurisdiction and what can be done to stop it.

Considering the support, I think that the only way the rule will get changed is if a licensee has the balls and/or funds to appeal the rule as far as it can go and has it thrown out as vague. The only way our version would get instituted is if it was offered as an alternative to the LCB when they are ordered to rewrite it.

[Jim Price]

I think for the short term, perhaps Lonewolf's suggestion about meeting with the local LCE commander might be the best thing. It may be the quickest way to at least get our concerns out in the open in front of LCE, and gain a better understanding of what exactly we are dealing with on the local level. Depending on when such a meeting could be set up, I'd be willing to be involved with it.

I still think we should continue to work towards the long-term solutions as well: The noise law change in the Liquor Code, and changing some of the local noise statutes about outside loudspeakers, etc. The long-term changing of the laws is the best way to guarantee against future abuses, and the set decibel level also can help eliminate the problem of nuisance neighbors bearing grudges against nearby venues. To those ends, I still like the idea of setting up a central organization to coordinate our energies and efforts, and would be interested in being a part of it. An organization would also enable us to coordinate and delegate efforts among several people, instead of sitting back and letting one or two concerned people step up to do all the work, which is the problem we are facing thus far.

I don't see our efforts so far in these forums as fruitless; sometimes it takes a little while for effective campaigns to come together, and ideas and feedback to be coordinated into effective action. At least we are still talking about it and attempting to plot courses of action...

Keep the feedback and ideas coming. All responsible suggestions are welcome.

[Skate Toad]

Well i'd say the best thing to do is get a group that is willing to go and confront the LCE, pick a meeting time and place and work out the details(such as spokes person and the right questions to ask etc.) I think a few club owners should be involved, considering it is their livelyhood also and plus they are the ones that hold the licenses, be it liquor or entertainment. They should understand it a little better than some of us as far as the actual licences go. And after the meeting happens (if the LCE would even agree to meet), then there is a place to start based on the kind of response and answers acquired from that meeting.
Todd

[byndrsn]

What Lonewolf, JP and Skatetoad said: I can agree with and stand behind 100%.

A small group of well spoken, polite, educated and prepared people would probably make the most impact.

I would happily offer to go along but I find that the long haired/biker look doesn't often help with first impressions.

But, I would be very interested in being involved with any type of "organization" that may come of this.

Let me know if there is anything I can do to help!

Urbs

[lonewolf]

I'd be glad to be a part of that group, as long as it does not conflict with my business schedule.

Once we have some volunteers, lets set up a meeting.

[Ron]

Just a note...
If the general accusation is made that PLCB officers are targeting specific groups or individuals, it is a very serious charge against them. I heard it first hand from a PLCB judge in their kangaroo courtroom. They will become very defensive, because their pork belly job could be on the line as it opens the door for litigation against them.

Not to discourage anyone at all, I'm in this too, but that is one thing that will definitely trip their trigger. This needs to be handled tactfully since we have no real power against them. The last thing we want is to give them a reason to get defensive, in the same way that you don't want to piss off the IRS.

[lonewolf]

Just a note...
If the general accusation is made that PLCB officers are targeting specific groups or individuals, it is a very serious charge against them. I heard it first hand from a PLCB judge in their kangaroo courtroom. They will become very defensive, because their pork belly job could be on the line as it opens the door for litigation against them.

Not to discourage anyone at all, I'm in this too, but that is one thing that will definitely trip their trigger. This needs to be handled tactfully since we have no real power against them. The last thing we want is to give them a reason to get defensive, in the same way that you don't want to piss off the IRS.

Yes, it would be a very serious charge, however, my view is that we would:

1. Make it clear that we represent working musicians and not licensees
2. Convey our thoughts about the economic impact on musicians, et. al.
3. Be on a "fact" finding mission (at least hear their side of the story)
4. Try to identify problems and perhaps find solutions that might satisfy both groups.

I've been in that courtroom too. Its handled like a private organization, and at that level, it basically is. It would not be a friendly place to take this issue, unless there was undisputable evidence of blatant discrimination.

[Ron]

That's it lonewolf, you hit the nail on the head.

[byndrsn]

That's it lonewolf, you hit the nail on the head.

AMEN

[Atomic Jim]

Vinny:

I'm with you. We had the PLCB hold up one of our shows last year while they check their decibile meter (and that was during the sound check!). We ended up starting about and a half-hour late because we had to wait for them to complete their inspection. I will sign the petition, come to a meeting, and my band will play a benefit if there is one.

Jim Kennedy
Atomic Blonde
814 749-7429

[lonewolf]

Vinny:

I'm with you. We had the PLCB hold up one of our shows last year while they check their decibile meter (and that was during the sound check!). We ended up starting about and a half-hour late because we had to wait for them to complete their inspection. I will sign the petition, come to a meeting, and my band will play a benefit if there is one.

Jim Kennedy
Atomic Blonde
814 749-7429

This is the first time I heard anything about the LCE using a decibel meter. I didn't think they were using them. Do you recall any more details of what they did with the meter? What county was that in?

Thanks for your support.

[songsmith]

If I can help with this in any way, please contact me. I'm reasonably well-spoken, and can be tactful, not that you folks couldn't, of course. My offer to compile anecdotal evidence still stands, as well. Contact me with the who-what-when-where-and-what-could-be-done's... these people will want specifics, to be sure.--->JMS

[Ron]

Vinny:

I'm with you. We had the PLCB hold up one of our shows last year while they check their decibile meter (and that was during the sound check!). We ended up starting about and a half-hour late because we had to wait for them to complete their inspection. I will sign the petition, come to a meeting, and my band will play a benefit if there is one.

Jim Kennedy
Atomic Blonde
814 749-7429

As lonewolf mentioned... Atomic Jim, we need the full details on this one. Are you sure it was a PLCB officer and not just a local cop enforcing a local noise ordinance?

[lonewolf]

So far, it looks like John, JP and I have volunteered to go visit the LCE commander.

Any other volunteers?

[Skate Toad]

I would but i don't know how much help i'd be. Did you guys consider getting at least one club owner involved??? I think it might show that we are working with the clubs... you know the ones that actually pay taxes and have to have the licenses or pay the fines etc. Just my thought on the issue. Might help with creditability. And they may raise questions we might not think of. Could be tough finding the right club owner willing to stick their neck out.
Todd

[lonewolf]

OK, if that's all that's interested, let's set up a meeting to hash things out, get our schedules coordinated and set up a meeting. I'm usually available after 4:30pm weekdays and most of the weekend.

[Jim Price]

Bump...I'm available to meet Mondays, Tuesdays or Thursdays after 6. Anyone have a prefered place to put a meeting together? The meeting should be our next logical step to get on the same page and plot our next course of action.

[lonewolf]

How about one of the places that is affected, like Victory Lane? I'd also like to hear some more detail from the licensee's point of view. If Nancy could be there, it would be helpful.

[Ron]

... Make it clear that we represent working musicians and not licensees ...

I don't think that taking a licensee with you to the LCE commander meeting would be a good idea, especially when the licensee has had recent violations.

Granted, we need cooperation and feedback from club owners, but as a first impression, I think initially you should try to keep things focused on working musicians.

[songsmith]

To date, nobody has gotten back to me as to when and where "violations" occurred. I can't go in there and say "Sure it happened, I read it on the internet." I need dates, times, places... I guarantee they'll want that. C'mon, people, I'm not asking you all to actually show up, I just need an e-mail or PM.---->JMS