tone

[lynch1]

I need help with my tone. My bandmates say my tone sounds like a buzz saw on higher volumes. I like the 80's hair metal tone, very compressed. I have a Peavey Bandit 112 and a Zoom g2g effects processor. I'm at my wits end trying to get the right tone. I had a previous post about amp and eq settings, but no go. If someone would be willing to get together with me to help me get this set up it would be greatly appreciated. pm me here at RP. I look forward to hearing from someone, ANYONE!!

[MistValkyrie]

I'm just here waiting for Paul to post and tell you to stop "scooping your mids".

I think the problem may be with your processor actually. Using the processor SHOULD (and obviously I could be very wrong on this) override the amp eq settings and such.
Also searching around I found this guy from a Peavey forum, it might help you find a place to start:

I use a Zoom G2Nu with a Studio Pro 112 Transtube, prefer running the modeler into the input for the added gain control; I set all tone knobs to 5 then adjust, also disable reverb on the amp. I think it sounds fine.

Here's the forum link http://forums.peavey.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=23852

I'm not super great at setting up amps myself or I'd come over and give you a hand, but I hope that will at least give you a starting point to go from.

[sunsetbass]

thank you you said it before i did. dude you know tommy brown as well as i do. i love him like a brother. he has been my shredder for a few years. his tone is the same. it screams 80s hair metal. one problem not only does it not cut through its extremely hard if not impossible to make it sound good. don't scoop your mids because from a sound guys point of veiw i cant put back what you took away.

[onegunguitar]

Add mids and tubes...problem solved

[Dark Soul]

I've noticed that metal players often have trouble getting a good tone because the tendency is to compress the crap out of everything, cut the mids, crank the bass and treble, and voila: Metal tone. The trouble with this is, while it may sound nice and heavy, it doesn't cut through the mix very well. Plus it's easy to put too much high end or presence in there in an attempt to make it cut through more, but then it sounds screechy and annoying. For a good sound, you must have at least a little mid range in there to give your tone some balls. Pretty much all the great players have at least a bit of mid range crunch in there.

What I do when trying to find a good tone is to set everything at about the middle. All the EQ knobs, presence, whatever else you have. Any effects including reverb, turn them off. Then strum a simple chord and take in the pure sound of the rig. Then begin to make small, and I mean very small, adjustments. You'll be tempted to do the scoop-mid-crank-hi-and-low thing, but resist the urge. Turn up the treble until it just starts to sound a little bright and stop. Drop your mids slowly, listening to the change in tone as you go. The bring the bass up slowly, just until it starts to sound a little thick. Take your time. Periodically undo a change or two to compare the difference. Ignore what the dials say. Let your ears tell you what to do. Add your effects lightly at first as well. Don't throw something in unless you really feel you need it. Over-saturating your sound with effects can make your tone sound thin.

Also, adding an EQ pedal can help fine tune your tone, but I treat it the same way with very small adjustments, comparing the before and after, until I've got it about as it good as it's gonna get.

Just my two cents. Hope that helps.

[KeithReynolds]

get an EQ with a buncha bands, find the nasty sound and remove it. Quick problem fixer without replacing gear.

[floodcitybrass]

No pedals, processors, or eqs are going to get you a great 80's metal sound out of a $300 solid state "trans tube" amp.


If you really want that 80's sound, get yourself a used JCM 800 50watt combo amp.

If that price is too high, get your self a used Fender blues Jr and a Marshall shred master pedal.

Real tubes are going to help more than any kind of processor settings, eqs, etc.

[lynch1]

I've been messing with my gear for the last couple hours. Got something I'm happy with, but I've heard it too.... Don't scoop the mids!!!! There are so many parameters on this processor that can be adjusted. But the way I started out was by turning all my knobs to 0. I made my adjustments in the processor only. What I was running into at practice was the tone was good, but when I would palm mute it, as my drummer called it, "warbled". it was really pushing the woofer. As soon as I added just the slightest bit of treble and/or mids the screechies came back when playing high notes. I'm honestly thinking about going back to the stomp boxes. I did see the Boss gt-100 though. I has the 80's tone built right in and from what I heard of it on YouTube sounds spot on for the sound I want. But the $500 is definitely a deterrent.

[floodcitybrass]

Don't scoop the mids. Hahah. I'll even say it again.


You might like the tone you get in your home. But it may sound way different in when you play with your band. The mids are what makes the guitar cut through the band.

I personally thing that strats sound so thin and brittle by them selves. But when you put them in a band, its my favorite tone.

[floodcitybrass]

Don't forget about the Marshall Slash SL5. It's a newer amp thats only 5 watts and gives that old school Marshall sound. You'd probably need to mic it on a gig. I have not heard one of these in person but the demos sound great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epOJDJi8ajQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqCVkilTbPo

[StumbleFingers]

Real tubes are going to help more than any kind of processor settings, eqs, etc.

Amen. There are a ton of good affordable tube amps on the market these days. And don't be afraid to go for a lower wattage amp. 12-20w is all you need to hang with a drummer, and those little amps sound incredible because you can run them wide open without going deaf.

Aside from tubes, my main advice would be don't over complicate things. Don't fiddle with a million settings. Don't pile on effects. Plug your guitar straight into the amp. Turn it up. Set the gain as low as you're comfortable with, then turn it a few notches lower. It's scary to play with a louder and cleaner sound, but it makes you a better player in a hurry.

A good guy to talk to for 80s tone advice is Mel/Milo Nuttz/The Shadow from Hair Force One. He can make any rig sound like George Lynch. He's just a great sounding player.

[floodcitybrass]

Posting for reference incase others want to see - Marshall JCM versions from the 80s.

Here's my JCM analysis:

Single channel amps - to use the amp distortion, you have to crank them up really loud. And I mean really loud. To play at lower volumes, you need a pedal and they still sound great. A cranked Marshall gives you that classic Marshall sound that people want. Most people that play small/medium venues around here would need a pedal. There is not reverb or effects loop in these amps.

Dual channel amps - you can use these at lower volumes. And when I say lower volumes, I mean reasonable rock volumes. I don't mean its quiet and you can't hear it. I mean that you do not have to crank it up so high that you break glass. You can still get a great Marshall tone. The dual channel versions have reverb and an effects loop too. Some of them are known for having channel bleed. They fixed it in the later versions.


The JCM single channel versions are
4010 - 50 watt combo amp, 1 speaker
4103 - 100 watt combo amp, 2 speakers
4104 - 50 watt combo amp, 2 speakers

2203 - 100 watt head
2204 - 50 watt head


The JCM dual channel versions are
4210 - 50 watt combo amp, 1 speaker
4211 - 100 watt, 2 speakers
4212 - 50 watt, 2 speakers

2205 - 50 watt head
2210 - 100 watt head

[kayla]

Aside from tubes, my main advice would be don't over complicate things. Don't fiddle with a million settings. Don't pile on effects. Plug your guitar straight into the amp. Turn it up. Set the gain as low as you're comfortable with, then turn it a few notches lower. It's scary to play with a louder and cleaner sound, but it makes you a better player in a hurry.

i agree with this 500 %. think simple. drive the hell out of the tubes. let the amp do the work. then maybe add an overdrive. i'm running a 25w tube, volume set high with two over drive pedals. guitar volume low, letting the amp do the work. rolling the volume up and down for lead/rhythm sections. it took me a while to understand this concept, but once i did it was magical. of course, you can't essentially do that with a solid state.

[StumbleFingers]

think simple. drive the hell out of the tubes. let the amp do the work. then maybe add an overdrive. i'm running a 25w tube, volume set high with two over drive pedals. guitar volume low, letting the amp do the work.

How do you use your overdrives? You have a nice pure tone, so I'm guessing you aren't pulling a ton of gain out of them.

It's important to consider how much of a role stompboxes actually play in the overall tone. It's usually not as much as you might think. If you expect the foot pedal to provide 90% of your tone, or to compensate for a mediocre amp tone, you have a steep hill to climb. If you see someone playing a Les Paul into a Tube Screamer into a Marshall stack, the Tube Screamer isn't the magic ingredient. It's just playing a supporting role.

That even holds true for extreme effects like a fuzz tone. A Fuzz Face into a clean, sterile amp won't sound like Hendrix or Eric Johnson. The amp needs to be pretty juicy on its own to achieve that magical fuzz nirvana.

Possible exception to this advice: ProCo Rat. A Rat always sounds good. Your mileage may vary. I have a bit of a Rat fetish. Rat = sexxx.

[kayla]

How do you use your overdrives? You have a nice pure tone, so I'm guessing you aren't pulling a ton of gain out of them.

i'm assuming you are referring to when you heard us about a year ago. that was a lot of clean tones, before i really knew what i was doing. now i've got a decent amount of gain to my tone. i can go from a nice gain type of sound to that crystal clean fender tone by switching off an overdrive. i use one overdrive for my clean and then kick on the second overdrive for more gain and break up.

[lonewolf]

I have found that most buzzsaw problems stem from way too much processed gain. Try to use more amp gain and less battery powered fuzzowhatsis device gain. Boosting bass and mids can help too.

Except for grunge & metal, most guitarists really don't use nearly as much gain as they seem to.

[KeithReynolds]

of course, kids, replacing gear would help this dude...but you gotta remember that not everyone on the planet can go "oh thats what i need, ill go buy it right now".

so work with what you have, with a future goal of replacing gear in mind.

the "buy THIS and itll sound good" approach cant always apply. Stay within reality for this dude's sake. offering advice that is beyond his reach doesnt help much now does it?

anyway. Easy way is EQ and settings. Have one of the tone wizards here set it up.

[Jasaoke]

Just turn it down. All of it.

EVERY time something sounds: odd, crapped-out, dingy, papery, buzzy, muddy, cheap, thin, dull, dirty, nasal, too farty, piercing, crackley, squeelish, lumpy, boomy, or otherwise weird, something (usually more than one something) is turned up too much.

There has already been a lot of great advice here. I always vote to turn it down.

[lynch1]

Thanks Keith for keeping it in reality....I make good money, but don't have the money to go out and buy new gear. I can probably get what I'm looking for with what I have, just need someone to help me figure out what needs to be changed to get what I'm looking for. I want the gain for the sustain on the higher notes and to get a good crunch, but don't want it to sound shrill on the high notes either. The band is saying my tone needs to be "warmer?". I've been listening to different guitarists for the tone I might be looking for. This is what I've come up with, the song by Brantley Gilbert called Country Must Be Country wide. The tone when the guitar player comes in after the verse it is fry your face off crunch, granted he is down 1/2 step and drop d, but the overall tone is awesome, then the solo is nice and warm, seems extremely compressed, the notes have gain, but not shrill. Maybe I'm in a dream world, I dunno. Thanks to everyone who has posted with their advice, it is very much appreciated.

[KeithReynolds]

Everyone's answer is "buy buy buy" always. Clearly some of them arent innovative or problem solvers.

Sure, tubes are great...but you know what??? Tubes Lubes Jubes. how bout that???
I understand everyone likes to have pride in their gear, but remember ppl...YOU ARE IN THE ALTOONA AREA....none of you are touring or doing anything.
The world would will be fine if you dont play through a 100,000$ amp. lol. I think ppl just like having nice gear in their basements. or better yet, playing in front of 6 drunks through 10k worth of gear. its more of just an ego thing i suspect.

BACK TO THE REAL TOPIC:
Anyway lynch, i can help with some suggestions as to settings. Im sure some of the others can too once they get off their BUYBUYBUY routine.

Pick a different distortion with less gain, eq out the crazy freqs that annoy, and it should be fine for now. Im not familiar with the unit you have, so its more of a hands on thing.

[lynch1]

Ive been messing with this for a couple of nights now.....just realized, the tone I'm really looking for is the guitar player from Huey Lewis, with out so much chorus.....you all probably think I'm crazy, keep giving examples of what I'm looking for......but yeah, I think the little less gain may be the answer.....seems that can be achieved by what Kayla said and lower volume on guitar until solo time and then crank it up... or change the gain setting in the processor.

[KeithReynolds]

the processor settings need changed for sure. presets are usually bad to use. start with a blank slate.

[StumbleFingers]

the tone I'm really looking for is the guitar player from Huey Lewis, with out so much chorus.....you all probably think I'm crazy

Not at all. That dude is a badass guitar player. We could do a whole thread on under-appreciated 80's pop guitarists. Neil Giraldo. Keith Scott. Robbie mother-f'n Blunt. I'd say Mike Campbell, but his awesomeness is pretty well recognized.

I'm not sure why you want to sound good, though, since you're just playing in Altoona.

[Dark Soul]

Yes, I wanted to make it clear, my post was meant to be helpful toward getting the best sound out of what you have. Of course, if money's no object, you can go out and buy a $5,000 rig and it'll sound better. But I would do the same thing with that rig as any other. Having great gear is nice, but it's not everything. You should try to get the best sound out of your rig that you can. Having awesome great gear and knowing how to set it up aren't mutually inclusive.

[StumbleFingers]

I agree 100% with Dark Soul. Dialing in a good tone is a skill/art and isn't related to the price of the gear.

It's important to note, though, that most of the buying advice in this thread has NOT been about cheap vs expensive. It's been about tube vs solid state. Each one is generally (not always) better at certain things. Tube amps thrive at high volume. Solid state sounds great at low to medium volume but can get thin and shrill at high volume. Lynch has issues at high volume. Some of us suggested tubes as an option. Tube amps aren't always expensive. I love my $250 Fender Excelsior, which is cheaper than a Bandit 112.