Another Reason Why Hip-Hop Sucks

[YankeeRose]

Are you qualified to generate that sort of psychobabble?

You want qualified, read bassist_25.

[ASB10]

After reading the many posts attacking or defending rap music, I felt like for once I wanted to add my two cents. I'm the guitar player for Third Standard and have been playing music since I was five. Since that time I have worked with artists from every genre of music, rap to rockabilly. To say rap is not music is ridiculous. To say that rappers are not musicians is ridiculous in my opinion. And also, it is worth mentioning the Hip-Hop and Rap are usually considered two different entities, each using their own style of production. I helped write the music for 2 entire rap albums about 2 years ago and I can tell you these guys know music. Beat making is called percussion... therefore all drummers out there can never say beat-engineers are not musicians unless they will look at themselves and say the same thing. Yes, the beat is cycled and slightly modified, but it is still music.
And to classify all rap/hip-hop as trash is an act of music bias and prejudice. I'll agree that I myself find little interesting in rapping about "bling" and "b*tches" but it is no different than lots of rock n roll that is just presented differently... for instance, Motley Crew's Girls, Girls, Girls... I love the Crew and don't listen to rap, but both have their meaning. Beastie Boys are rock n roll with Rap. The instrumentation of rap album sometimes dwarfs the innovation of a standard rock group. Look at Kanye West. The album, though not my particular interest, uses full orchestration, choir, rock band, etc. Beautiful sounds. Then look at what cover bands here play... Poison, Fall Out Boy, etc... these songs have little production short of helping a singer sound in key and a thousand guitar pedals to make a guitar player have individuality. Rap and hip-hop are most certainly quality types of music, just may not appeal to the masses that same. I can appreciate all the aforementioned types of music, but I choose what I actually listen to.
Music is an art. Poetry is an art. Hip-hop and rap are poetry with percussion most times, but many times, hip hop artists use real instruments like the Roots or Black Eyed Peas. And what is the most important part of a song if you want it to catch on with a crowd? THE HOOK! Rappers have the same issues as rock and jazz musicians creating hooks.
Preference is one thing. Ignorance is another. In my opinion I'm shocked by how little tolerance and understanding some people on the page have for all types of music.

Joe Scott
Third Standard

[Bit*chenWomen1029]

Well Said ASB10!!!

[nightcrawler_steve]

Was gonna post, but after thinking about it. It would be a waste of breath and fall on deaf ears. Im not on rockpage to argue or ruffle feathers. I made the point I wanted to earlier in this thread. If some want to twist and distort it fine. I NEVER ONCE implied it has anything to do with racism - get real.

Bash away if it makes you feel better. Im all for feeling good.

[Bit*chenWomen1029]

rap & hip hop still suck

Well for instance say someone thinks your music sucks.... then they go all over and say that it sucks to everyone they know.... then no one will want to come see/hear you play 'cause they heard that your band sucks.

Ok, so what do we get out of this is..... dont say other peoples music sucks just simply say " its not my cup of tea"!!!!!

Your welcome for todays lesson!!!!!! lol

[BDR]

I made the point I wanted to earlier in this thread. If some want to twist and distort it fine. I NEVER ONCE implied it has anything to do with racism - get real.

AMEN.

r:>)

[YankeeRose]

rap & hip hop still suck

His Posts are simple, to the point, don't hurt, insult or denote "great dislike" of the performers in the least. Bit'chenwomen, he's fine by me. For the record, it's NOT my music in the least! However, my oldest nephew is quite the fan.
(I only have 2 nephews. )



NightcrawlerSteve, no you never mentioned a thing about racism.
However, you did mention diversity and also the mindset on here being akin to Germany in the 1930s, did you not...I suppose it could have been someone else. Your earlier replies and those of bassist_25, to me, said it all, but it just kept going...then it was said "they are not Musicians", so that makes it okay. I'm all for feeling good too.




THANK YOU ASB10!!! There are a LOT worse derrogatory rock tunes out there than "Girls, Girls, Girls"...read some of the rock lyrics the Troll Posted. I want to see ANYONE argue with the KNOWLEDGE of your Reply, if they do, I feel it shows THEIR "true colors".

[lonewolf]

rap & hip hop still suck

Well for instance say someone thinks your music sucks.... then they go all over and say that it sucks to everyone they know.... then no one will want to come see/hear you play 'cause they heard that your band sucks.

Ok, so what do we get out of this is..... dont say other peoples music sucks just simply say " its not my cup of tea"!!!!!

Your welcome for todays lesson!!!!!! lol

Yes, except this is ROCKpage, not RAPpage or HIPHOPpage.

Don't expect many rock musicians to have a warm and cuddly attitude toward these genres. Also, don't expect many trained and educated musicians to appreciate the musical qualities (or lack thereof) of these genres either.

From the posts in this thread, the only positive attribute mentioned about either rap or hip-hop is their danceability. Is that it? Danceablility? Please don't call me racist just because I am extremely unimpressed.

One note about diversity. Diversity is of no importance or consequence unless the diverse bring something unique and positive to the table.

[YankeeRose]

One note about diversity. Diversity is of no importance or consequence unless the diverse bring something unique and positive to the table.

Can I call you "PapPap"? With that :ouch: statement, you entered a slippery slope. How about "diversity is in the eye of the beholder"?

[Bit*chenWomen1029]

i know this is ROCKpage, but lately seems a more appropriate name should be ATTACKpage!!!!

Did you ever hear....CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG??

[lonewolf]

Oh yeah, for the record...

I don't hate hip-hop and often watch hip-hop videos because they amuse me to no end. This is the funniest stuff I've seen since the 3 Stooges. They just put it on the wrong channel, that's all. Should be on Comedy Central.

From another standpoint...If I was to bother to write any more new original music in a futile attempt at "making it big", I would probably take a few stabs at the hip-hop beat and bass line combined with jazz chords and throw in some guitar solos. It might be somewhat reminiscent of Stevie Ray or Robin Trower, etc...

[FatVin]

ASB10 Wrote:

To say that rappers are not musicians is ridiculous in my opinion.

The preceding is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it, I disagree and here's why:

Rap, as it were, is not music...This is not to say it is not art ..It's just not that particular form or art.

Allow me to expound.....

In order for sounds to be music, these sounds must have a rhythm structure, a Melody and a Harmony Structure. Only when ALL THREE requirements are met do you have music

Metal Has Rhythm, so does Country, so does Rap, even the stuff that Big Bird sings on Sesame Street ALL Have Rhythm.

If Bob Dylan's vocals can be called melody, then we have be kinda loose with that one and give even Eminem the benefit of a doubt

Music must have a Harmony Structure, in other words, there must be a chord progession....Here is where Rap fails the test.

but

Just because rap doesn't qualify as music doesn't mean it's not Art!

It's just not that form of art. Let me clarify this one.

Some people think that if you say "Rap is not music" that's the comment is racist. If you think that you are enititled to your opinion

but am I racist if I say

Rap is not sculpture, Rap is not Photography or Rap is not Ballet?

Of course not, those are different art forms and obviuosly have little to do with Rap...but what makes them different?

Tools and skills

You a very specific set of tools to make a sculpture. The Chisel and hammers and sanding cloths that would help turn a hunk of wood into a work of art, aren't much help to a ballerina.

The skills of body movement and emotional recall that make Robert DeNiro a great Actor, aren't of much use to a guy painting a mural on a ceiling.

To make music, you need a musical instrument, be that instrument a guitar or drum or Piano, or even the human voice (Those are the tools) and you need the ability to understand and interpret Rhythm,and harmony structure (if only implied) and melody (Those are the skills) ...That's music

For rap, you need a device to create a beat (a sampler or a turntable, or a guy makin noisees) That's the tool part, and you need an understanding of Rhythm (and Rhythm is enough) and/or an ability to rhyme (Those are the skills) and even though there is some overlap, there is overlap on lots of different forms of art and if you think about it. that just proves my point

For the record, I'm not a fan of Rap either but just cause I don't get it don't mean it isn't art. I don't get those painting where the guy splatters the drops of paint on the canvas in a seemingly random fashion...

But that doesn't mean it isn't art.

[ToonaRockGuy]

Beat making is called percussion... therefore all drummers out there can never say beat-engineers are not musicians unless they will look at themselves and say the same thing. Yes, the beat is cycled and slightly modified, but it is still music.
Joe Scott
Third Standard

Sorry, joe, I respectfully must disagree with you. I've been playing drums for 32 years now, and I can tell you that beat engineers are NOT musicians unless they sit down at a kit and play and record it themselves.

Anyone can sit down at a drum machine and (given enough time) form some sort of beat. But put someone behind a drumkit, and you've got another story.

Amir "?uestlove" Thompson of The Roots? Amazing drummer and musician. P-Diddy? Not even CLOSE to being a musician. If the best that a rap artist or hip-hop artist can do is lift a sample from someone else's record, there's no talent there, and therefore no real music.

***I must say that I never meant to cause such a stir here on Rockpage, but in my mind, as long as there are no personal attacks, and we continue to get intelligent and well thought out posts, I'd like this exchange of opinions to continue.***

[YankeeRose]

After reading the many posts attacking or defending rap music, I felt like for once I wanted to add my two cents. I'm the guitar player for Third Standard and have been playing music since I was five. Since that time I have worked with artists from every genre of music, rap to rockabilly. To say rap is not music is ridiculous. To say that rappers are not musicians is ridiculous in my opinion. And also, it is worth mentioning the Hip-Hop and Rap are usually considered two different entities, each using their own style of production. I helped write the music for 2 entire rap albums about 2 years ago and I can tell you these guys know music. Beat making is called percussion... therefore all drummers out there can never say beat-engineers are not musicians unless they will look at themselves and say the same thing. Yes, the beat is cycled and slightly modified, but it is still music.
And to classify all rap/hip-hop as trash is an act of music bias and prejudice. I'll agree that I myself find little interesting in rapping about "bling" and "b*tches" but it is no different than lots of rock n roll that is just presented differently... for instance, Motley Crew's Girls, Girls, Girls... I love the Crew and don't listen to rap, but both have their meaning. Beastie Boys are rock n roll with Rap. The instrumentation of rap album sometimes dwarfs the innovation of a standard rock group. Look at Kanye West. The album, though not my particular interest, uses full orchestration, choir, rock band, etc. Beautiful sounds. Then look at what cover bands here play... Poison, Fall Out Boy, etc... these songs have little production short of helping a singer sound in key and a thousand guitar pedals to make a guitar player have individuality. Rap and hip-hop are most certainly quality types of music, just may not appeal to the masses that same. I can appreciate all the aforementioned types of music, but I choose what I actually listen to.
Music is an art. Poetry is an art. Hip-hop and rap are poetry with percussion most times, but many times, hip hop artists use real instruments like the Roots or Black Eyed Peas. And what is the most important part of a song if you want it to catch on with a crowd? THE HOOK! Rappers have the same issues as rock and jazz musicians creating hooks.
Preference is one thing. Ignorance is another. In my opinion I'm shocked by how little tolerance and understanding some people on the page have for all types of music.

Joe Scott
Third Standard

If you read and comprehend the above, Joe Scott is fully qualified to quantify that YES it IS Music.



Not all of the performers use Bands. Not all of them have talent, the same as many musicians. The Black Eyed Peas is a group I like. Remember "Barbershop Quartets", and how about singing "a capella"? Are they not considered "music"? It's possible that many "musos" like to argue, period.

[lonewolf]

One note about diversity. Diversity is of no importance or consequence unless the diverse bring something unique and positive to the table.

Can I call you "PapPap"? With that :ouch: statement, you entered a slippery slope. How about "diversity is in the eye of the beholder"?

Maybe this will make more sense:

Diversity only serves a purpose if acceptable results occur from a solution containing the different ideas from a diverse group. But what if the results are unacceptable? Diversity for diversity's sake? I think not.

Like anything else, diversity has its good points and its bad points, but it is sure as hell no axiom for success in any endeavor, including attitudes toward race, creed and religion.

I worked at PSU back when Bryce Jordan was President...his mantra and PSU's slogan was simply "Excellence". Not long after he died, Braham Spanier took the reins and quickly changed PSU's slogan to "Diversity".

The modern concept of Diversity was brand new and many of us didn't know what to think. We knew how to strive to be excellent, but had a little problem trying to be diverse in the manner prescribed. I worked in Chem Engineering where many of the grad students and professors were either immigrants or aliens from every continent. Yes, I was right smack in the middle of diversity and as the Network Admin, I worked with every last person. The next thing you know, it was time for my review. My boss, Ali, a Professor from Lebanon, told me that there was an additional form to fill out regarding my performance. He was laughing and shaking his head as he handed it to me .... it was PSU's official Diversity performance form. He felt the form was an insult to both of us, but to comply with Employment, I needed to look it over and sign it.

My point here is that we were already diverse and getting along just fine, without anybody having to tell us. When they changed the slogan, all the label "Diversity" did was remind us that we were different. Instead of "Excellence" we were now a diverse group struggling for...diversity? The modern concept of Diversity, implies and requires us to discriminate by race, creed and religion, albeit from a positive context--not unlike Affirmative Action. In my book, any kind of racial discrimination is racist, whether with good intent or not and this is why I do not blindly subscribe to it.
Diversity is just another path to hell that is paved with good intentions.

[ASB10]

I have 3 things to say:
1) Sorry - I just noticed I spelled Crue as "CREW" ... wow am I an ass..

2) Music is an experience brought about my any rhythm OR melody , not meant to be dissected into parts such as melody, harmonies, beat... yadda yadda yadda... start to dissect and you start to squash individuality and expression. Stomp on Broadway was ALL rhythm and not always melody (some was based on instrumentation)... no one can say that ain't music. But I can appreciate the idea.

3) A beat engineer with a computer looks at a screen, listens to the beat he puts down and must morph it based on eighth, sixteenth, and other note syncopations that are both visual and audio. I dabble (not well) with it myself and honestly it takes skill and a musician's ear. If you want to know more about it, get a program and see if you can make something that sounds professional... not an easy task.

I love how we have these great conversations without attacking. Speaks highly of us as a community.
Joe Scott
THird Standard

[Banned]

Just because 1 or 2 people say having a electronic machine aritficially make drum and base pattens = music, does not make it true.

Most of the musicians on this site seem to be saying the noise made in rap cd's is not music. The majority of musicians on this site make music the old fashion way, they play instruments and actually create new sounds that they play with melodies and beats that sound like music to them and thier listeners.

In my humble opinion, I think rap sucks, is not music but entertainment. Eating maggots and antelope gonads is also being passed off as entertainment on TV today.

having this opinion does not make me close minded towards race. My favoirte guitarist if all time is Jimmi Hendrix (black), favorite blues guitarist today is Buddy Guy (black), most of the blues shows I go to see today have black musicians. My favorite band The Allman Brothers were one of the first southern bands to have a black man (Jamoie, percussion, and he did not use a drum machine).


....and why am I even listing all the musicians I love and enjoy, just so some on this page do not think i am racist????? Just who are the real close-minded people here anyway?

[bassist_25]

Yes, except this is ROCKpage, not RAPpage or HIPHOPpage.

Don't expect many rock musicians to have a warm and cuddly attitude toward these genres. Also, don't expect many trained and educated musicians to appreciate the musical qualities (or lack thereof) of these genres either.

And as I've stated numerous times, don't expect the trained and educated musicians to appreciate Rock music either. While some of us are aruging that sampled beats and spoken lyrics aren't all that great, many of them think that thousands of songs built on power chord, pentatonics, and I-IV-V progressions aren't that great either. When I take the stage to play a Poison tune, I'm not bullshitting myself into thinking that I'm playing a challenging piece of music.

I really don't care what the name of the page is. For musicians, I'm actually dissapointed in how ineclectic many of the people here are.

[Bit*chenWomen1029]

And as I've stated numerous times, don't expect the trained and educated musicians to appreciate Rock music either. While some of us are aruging that sampled beats and spoken lyrics aren't all that great, many of them think that thousands of songs built on power chord, pentatonics, and I-IV-V progressions aren't that great either. When I take the stage to play a Poison tune, I'm not bullshitting myself into thinking that I'm playing a challenging piece of music.

I really don't care what the name of the page is. For musicians, I'm actually dissapointed in how ineclectic many of the people here are.

NICELY SAID!!!!

[Banned]

Start up EclecticPage.

[YankeeRose]

Peace,

[bassist_25]

Start up EclecticPage.

1st: Take a music history course at the commuity college. 2nd: Take a class on rhetoric while you're there. There's more to music than I-IV-V progressions. From some of the post I read on here, I'd swear that the art form of music only existed between 1968 - 1997.

[f.sciarrillo]

I hate rap, I hate everything to do with rap. I don't even think Rap is a genre. It is a joke. It promoted drugs, racism, stupidity, beatings, shootings, killings, woman bashing, women beating, rapes, torture, incest, volgarity, molestation, porn, bestiality, gang violence, prisoners, con artist, stupid idiots who can't annunciate (did I spell that right ??), and the use "Know what I'm saying" in every other sentence, if that is even a sentence - I'll have to ask my english professor ...

My personal opinion is that rap should be banned from the American culture. It is not freedom of speech, it is non educational bibble babble. Can anyone even understand what those morons say ?? They are the most under talented, over paid idiots on the face of the earth ...

You want to be a rap star ?? Get a keyboard, push sample, and make up words to go with the beat ..

[lonewolf]

Start up EclecticPage.

1st: Take a music history course at the commuity college. 2nd: Take a class on rhetoric while you're there. There's more to music than I-IV-V progressions. From some of the post I read on here, I'd swear that the art form of music only existed between 1968 - 1997.

Popular music only existed until 1981...then came MTV. Now it is popular video. The music has been relegated to the background.

In the early 90s, I saw a CNBC interview with the CEO of MTV. When asked "Now that you are profitable, what's next for MTV?" she replied: "Now we have to teach these kids what to think". That was the beginnings of the greatest musical mindfuck in history. Without MTV's big push, rap and later, hip-hop would never have been anything more than an urban curiosity.

[bassist_25]

Start up EclecticPage.

1st: Take a music history course at the commuity college. 2nd: Take a class on rhetoric while you're there. There's more to music than I-IV-V progressions. From some of the post I read on here, I'd swear that the art form of music only existed between 1968 - 1997.

Popular music only existed until 1981...then came MTV. Now it is popular video. The music has been relegated to the background.

In the early 90s, I saw a CNBC interview with the CEO of MTV. When asked "Now that you are profitable, what's next for MTV?" she replied: "Now we have to teach these kids what to think". That was the beginnings of the greatest musical mindfuck in history. Without MTV's big push, rap and later, hip-hop would never have been anything more than an urban curiosity.

And that's the reason why I don't watch MTV. I actually lose brain cells when I turn to that station. Granted, you only have about a 1:1000 chance of actually seeing a music video or concert when you flip there. *LOL*