YESTERDAY'S PARTY EBENSBURG'S BIGGEST JOKE

[Merge]

Lol, I agree. This thread is epic!!!

Seriously though, after hearing what this guy has done, I'm surprised that some band hasn't waited for him after closing time and really worked him over.

[floodcitybrass]

This is interesting, How many band out there use contracts?

FCB uses contracts for most of our gigs. It gives peace of mind to both parties.

[floodcitybrass]

It would be nice if we could have a list of the clubs that have abused local bands. And what to do to protect our investments. Back in the old days we had a union.

Deb, you hit the nail on the head. This is EXACTLY the type of stuff that that a union is supposed to do. The AFM used to be very involved in the rock bands.

Unfortunately the AFM union around here is pereceived very negatively by its members. In talking with union musicians, their perception is that the union focuses too much on the negative stuff rather than the positiive stuff. For example, the union tends to focus up on things like "checking up on you to make sure you arent playing with non-union members" rather than trying to find you work or black listing poor playing environments.

Nevertheless, I have hope for the union and I am still a member. I hope it turns around and starts being perceived more positively. I also hope the AFM starts embracing and recruiting rockers more. It seems like the afm around consists mostly of orchestra, brass, woodwind, band directors, etc.

[Merge]

How long has there been a musicians union up there??

[bassist_25]

Deb, you hit the nail on the head. This is EXACTLY the type of stuff that that a union is supposed to do. The AFM used to be very involved in the rock bands.

Unfortunately the AFM union around here is pereceived very negatively by its members. In talking with union musicians, their perception is that the union focuses too much on the negative stuff rather than the positiive stuff. For example, the union tends to focus up on things like "checking up on you to make sure you arent playing with non-union members" rather than trying to find you work or black listing poor playing environments.

Nevertheless, I have hope for the union and I am still a member. I hope it turns around and starts being perceived more positively. I also hope the AFM starts embracing and recruiting rockers more. It seems like the afm around consists mostly of orchestra, brass, woodwind, band directors, etc.

I'm not really sure how the musician's union could benefit many rock musicians, since they would most probably be considered independent contractors. With orchestra musicians, they are considered employees of the orchestra. Therefore, the AFM would be the NLRB-certified bargaining agent. I assume that there would then be a collective barganing agreement between the owner/management of the orchestra and the musicians. With other types of musicians, the relationship isn't typically a servant-master relationship between the band and the club. Perhaps the union does have some legal power in enforcing band-written contracts, which still wouldn't be the same thing as a CBA. However, that would give musicians a lot more power that they need, IMO. The big argument with contracts is that "they would be expensive to enforce in court." Well, arbitration would be a hell of a lot less expensive than going to court. It would also keep a lot of club owners and promoters in line if they had to shell out for an arbitrator for violating a contract.

Honestly, I don't know much about the AFM. Am I correct with my assumptions in the above paragraph? My dad was a member for a while. I think he got two gigs out of it. One of my friends is also a member, but he does more orchestra work.

[floodcitybrass]

How long has there been a musicians union up there??

The Johnstown Local 41 has been around since 1913.

[floodcitybrass]

I'm not really sure how the musician's union could benefit many rock musicians, since they would most probably be considered independent contractors. With orchestra musicians, they are considered employees of the orchestra. Therefore, the AFM would be the NLRB-certified bargaining agent.

You would still work as an independent contractor. You are not necessarily an employee of an orchestra. I play in highschool musical pits. This is the main reason why I am a member. These pits are are independent musicians that form a one time band. After that, you are off to the next job.

Also, the union does do contracts and collective bargaining.


If these clubs continue to be abusive, we should consider getting a bunch of people to join and have discussions with the local and see how they can help.

The thing about the union is that is all-or-nothing. They don't like when some members of the band are union and some are non union.

[BigJohn]

In Case you guys haven't noticed there are less and less venues for you to play in , If you start pushing these guy for contracts and riders there going to go to DJ's . Less money and unfortunitley these days usualy BIGGER CROWDS . Most Younger Crowds especialy girls today want more of a dance - hip hop sound witch most local bands don't want to or can't do. Plus no need for a cover charge to cover the expense !!!!!!!

P.S. Don't Kill the Messenger ....

[bassist_25]

Thanks for the info! I'm still not exactly sure how the AFM works, apparently. It is interesting, none the less.

It makes sense that the union wouldn't smile upon non-union members being in a band, since they would be free riders. Pennsylvania isn't a right to work state, though. Agency shop, mofos!!! Haha, just kidding.

For the most part, I really don't feel like I've been abused as a musician or that my band's been abused. We've been screwed by a couple of places. The Club Car fiasco was epic. They'll probably never be able to book bands on regular basis again after getting called out on their shit.

[bassist_25]

In Case you guys haven't noticed there are less and less venues for you to play in , If you start pushing these guy for contracts and riders there going to go to DJ's . Less money and unfortunitley these days usualy BIGGER CROWDS . Most Younger Crowds especialy girls today want more of a dance - hip hop sound witch most local bands don't want to or can't do. Plus no need for a cover charge to cover the expense !!!!!!!

P.S. Don't Kill the Messenger ....

Going back to the post I just posted, I really don't feel the need to ask for a contract at 98% of the places I've played. Most local club owners are, in my experience, at worst, shrewd. Those club owners and promoters with a bad history usually get called out on their shenigans, and it does affect them. I've seen it happen. If this were Pittsburgh or Philadelphia, though, the small town, everyone-knows-everyone, politics may not keep people in line as much as it does here in the sticks.

If I were out on the road...you better believe every gig would be guaranteed by a contract.

[Merge]

Thanks for the info! I'm still not exactly sure how the AFM works, apparently. It is interesting, none the less.

It makes sense that the union wouldn't smile upon non-union members being in a band, since they would be free riders. Pennsylvania isn't a right to work state, though. Agency shop, mofos!!! Haha, just kidding.

For the most part, I really don't feel like I've been abused as a musician or that my band's been abused. We've been screwed by a couple of places. The Club Car fiasco was epic. They'll probably never be able to book bands on regular basis again after getting called out on their shit.

Now I'm curious again, lol. What did The Club Car do your band??

[Lisa]

I guess I don't mind the thought of a contract as long as it was just confirming the agreement that was agreed upon to begin with. But once you try to do a standard contract for all your venues, you sort of screw yourself because the venues are sparse and you have to consider such things as location and the venue itself.

I grew up in an Union family. I have mixed feelings about it. Sometimes you pay union dues and get very little benefit from them. Hiring a band that was in an union would be of no benefit to me as a venue. Its not going to bring more people out. I would rather see a band pay for some of its own advertising than to pay union dues.

[bassist_25]

Now I'm curious again, lol. What did The Club Car do your band??

Read on, my friend.

http://rockpage.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.ph ... t=club+car

Back on the subject of contracts - There is something that we in negotiations call leverage. It's basically the power that you hold at the table and is tied into the consideration that each party is going to provide to execute the contract. If Halestorm wants to play a venue, they probably wouldn't have much trouble having a venue owner or promoter sign a contract. The band's signed to a major label, has quite a following, and will most probably make the venue a ton of money. If the owner or venue doesn't want to sign a contract, then Halestorm could say, "Too bad," and just go to the place down the street. However, it's doubtful that a club owner is going to take the band seriously who's been together for four months and has just played its first two gigs. The band could be tight as hell and have potential make the venue owner a lot of money, but the leverage is squarely with the venue owner. Now four years down the road, who's to say? The band may have risen to the top of the scene and is a hot commodity. Now they're in the driver's seat. If a venue's expecting to pull $15k one night, then it better be ready to sign a contract.

Here's a good analogy - If you own a law firm and are looking for a new attorney, would you sign a contract with someone who has serious potential to be a good lawyer but who just got his JD from Ye Olde Law School Degree Mill, whose extent of real world experience is a three month internship? Would you sign a contract with someone holding a LLM, was a rain maker as an associate at his last law firm, has fifteen years experience, is being courted by the other three biggest firms in the city, and is featured in Harvard Law Review?

My advice - Respect everyone who you meet on the way up. Continue to respect everyone who you meet when you are on top. That goes for musicians, club owners, promoters, sound engineers, and well...just about everyone else.

[Viva la Pelt]

THAT GUY IS A DOUCHE BAG!!!!!!!!! F*%K YP

[lonewolf]

About the contract/union thing:

If all you want out of the union is a standardized contract form, then you probably shouldn't go with the union. Its been a long time since I was a member, but the AFM has a lot of other benefits (kinda like AARP) like group equipment insurance, etc. (correct me if this has changed).

As a business entity, a band or bandleader can always get a standard contract form in digital format. They can thn negotiate terms and use the contract with whomever or whatever venue they see fit and is willing to sign it. Its not like you have to use it every time you book a job.

[LHSL]

In Case you guys haven't noticed there are less and less venues for you to play in , If you start pushing these guy for contracts and riders there going to go to DJ's . Less money and unfortunitley these days usualy BIGGER CROWDS . Most Younger Crowds especialy girls today want more of a dance - hip hop sound witch most local bands don't want to or can't do. Plus no need for a cover charge to cover the expense !!!!!!!

P.S. Don't Kill the Messenger ....

If the hip/hop and dance music is really that popular, the smart businessman musician would start a hip-hop style band and offer that service to clubs and bars. I actually think it would do VERY well and with someone skilled at arranging, wouldn't be all that difficult musically. I know everyone has their personal tastes, but for me as a music lover, I like to be involved in the show no matter what the genre is. If that's hip-hot is all that sells, I would still try to be involved in the production and making money at it.

I think a lot of hip-hop and R&B acts are branching out and using a lot of real instrumentation in their live shows, versus backing tracks and DJs (the real kind of DJs not the wedding type). They might still have someone spinning, but they also have guitars, full drum set, and keyboards many times. The point is there is room for real musicians on stage with hip-hop and R&B style stuff.

There will ALWAYS be a crowd that wants metal/rock/punk in the bar they drink at... but I say beat the DJs at their own game. Provide a live version of what they do, and put them out of business. I think live bands ALWAYS win over recorded music in a given genre.

[bassist_25]

. They can thn negotiate terms and use the contract with whomever or whatever venue they see fit and is willing to sign it. Its not like you have to use it every time you book a job.

Excellent point.

If the hip/hop and dance music is really that popular, the smart businessman musician would start a hip-hop style band and offer that service to clubs and bars. I actually think it would do VERY well and with someone skilled at arranging, wouldn't be all that difficult musically. I know everyone has their personal tastes, but for me as a music lover, I like to be involved in the show no matter what the genre is. If that's hip-hot is all that sells, I would still try to be involved in the production and making money at it.

I think a lot of hip-hop and R&B acts are branching out and using a lot of real instrumentation in their live shows, versus backing tracks and DJs (the real kind of DJs not the wedding type). They might still have someone spinning, but they also have guitars, full drum set, and keyboards many times. The point is there is room for real musicians on stage with hip-hop and R&B style stuff.

Good points, as well. I'm not a big hip-hop fan, but we do a few hip-hop tunes arranged for guitar. I know that's not everyone's bag, and that's cool. You don't have to do that either. However, I agree...a band with some talented cats doing hip-hop and new school R&B would kill at venues like 4D's and places in State College.

[dayzichick]

As far as YP, they have their own in house system but they rotate sound people and a lot of those sound people don't show up but that could be cause he only pays them a measley $50 (I wouldn't leave my couch either). That's why no one knows what they are doing. One time our sound person didn't show up and his back up didn't show up . . . Frank said, "I don't know what to tell you?" So we figured out the system ourselves and had one of our friends just sit there all night in case something really bad happened. At the end of the night I told Frank we wanted the money he was going to pay the sound guy since we ran our own sound. He said, "no I already have to pay to rent the system." I said, "what has that got to do with me? You were prepared to pay a sound guy, that ended up being us, so where's the money?" I also told him his system sucked and I wouldn't pay anything to rent it and he was getting ripped off which is probably why I didn't get the money. Because get this, supposedly he was paying $100 a gig to rent the sound equipment but he was only paying the sound guy $50 to run sound per gig . . . .HUH? He wouldn't give me the money and as my "punishment" he cancelled the next two gigs on us. That's what he does, he cancels you when you do something that makes him mad. Then he calls us back a few months later wondering why I haven't booked anything with him. Really he's not the only one. I could go through the list of Johnstown club managers who act the exact same way. It has made me want to quit many times. And I have to say it's because there are people that let them do it, because there are people that are willing to play for $2 cause they enjoy playing and have no self dignity. These club owners act this way because bands allow them to and no union or contract is going to fix that. As far as I can tell in Johnstown, bands are not seen as a commodity because the club will just replace you with karaoke, a DJ or one man singing bob cause they want to pay as little as possible. I once had a club owner tell me the quality of his bands and the quality of the musicians does not matter to him. WHAT? So if any of you know any clubs where they treat you respectfully, let me know.

[floodcitybrass]

Don't get me wrong about the union/contract thing.

There are several jobs that we book on a handshake.

However, there are many "one-time" type jobs that we play (mainly private events suchs as weddings, fundraisers, and galas). We use contracts for these types of venues; mainly so that the client has a peace of mind that wel will indeed show up and play. This also acts as an invoice so we get paid and it cleary states the price.

If a band plays at a locatoin say once a month, there is probably no need for a contract because the terms are probably known from the last time you played....... unless you play at YP.

Its a shame that there are such horror stories about yp.

[Merge]

Now I'm curious again, lol. What did The Club Car do your band??

Read on, my friend.

http://rockpage.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.ph ... t=club+car

Back on the subject of contracts - There is something that we in negotiations call leverage. It's basically the power that you hold at the table and is tied into the consideration that each party is going to provide to execute the contract. If Halestorm wants to play a venue, they probably wouldn't have much trouble having a venue owner or promoter sign a contract. The band's signed to a major label, has quite a following, and will most probably make the venue a ton of money. If the owner or venue doesn't want to sign a contract, then Halestorm could say, "Too bad," and just go to the place down the street. However, it's doubtful that a club owner is going to take the band seriously who's been together for four months and has just played its first two gigs. The band could be tight as hell and have potential make the venue owner a lot of money, but the leverage is squarely with the venue owner. Now four years down the road, who's to say? The band may have risen to the top of the scene and is a hot commodity. Now they're in the driver's seat. If a venue's expecting to pull $15k one night, then it better be ready to sign a contract.

Here's a good analogy - If you own a law firm and are looking for a new attorney, would you sign a contract with someone who has serious potential to be a good lawyer but who just got his JD from Ye Olde Law School Degree Mill, whose extent of real world experience is a three month internship? Would you sign a contract with someone holding a LLM, was a rain maker as an associate at his last law firm, has fifteen years experience, is being courted by the other three biggest firms in the city, and is featured in Harvard Law Review?

My advice - Respect everyone who you meet on the way up. Continue to respect everyone who you meet when you are on top. That goes for musicians, club owners, promoters, sound engineers, and well...just about everyone else.

Damn!!! That place actually sounds worse then the place we are discussing now. They went right up in ya dry, didn't they.

[JayBird]

I'm suprised you were even guaranteed a flat rate. Frank used to only do door deals for first timers. Back when Lost Ledny was fairly big in the Johsntown/Edbensburg area, Frank would only give them the door. Well that was fine and dandy cause the band would make more that way than if they asked for their flat rate...his loss cause he could have paid the flat rate and kept the rest from the door! Anyway, after the whole cancellation thing a few times and the double booking...YP became old news. It's funny how he bitched that you guys were an 80s band. That's all Frank really books so I'm not sure why he gave you crap for sounding 80ish...even if you're not an 80s party band. Everytime I've been to YP it's a different band, but an identical set list...Brown Eyed Girl, Jessie's Girl, Greenday covers, Nickelback covers, Bon Jovi covers, Weezer...you get the point.

[CCdrums]

Does anyone remember back in the late 70's/early eighties when DJ's were considered "gay" and live bands ruled? Live bands always had the crowds and DJ's were basically driven to extinction or the occasional wedding reception. What happened? Karaoke never would have flown eiher, people would have pelted you with garbage if you got up and sang to a soundtrack. Times sure have changed....

[gibson980]

Does anyone remember back in the late 70's/early eighties when DJ's were considered "gay" and live bands ruled? Live bands always had the crowds and DJ's were basically driven to extinction or the occasional wedding reception. What happened? Karaoke never would have flown eiher, people would have pelted you with garbage if you got up and sang to a soundtrack. Times sure have changed....

Because its a total lack of education in our society. Young adults/teens rather listen to 50 cent talk about getting his dick wet rather then good rock music. Everythings about image these days when it comes to the music scene. Bands and Artists have the hair, tattoos, money, and fame, but still dont have much talent compared to bands of the past. Its just a money making machine and our society puts up with it by further feeding the problem. Up in state college the DJs are treated like gold and they get crowds 400+ thurs-sat. Never knew it took talent to change from kayne to 2 pac, but hey i must be missing something here.....

[lonewolf]

Does anyone remember back in the late 70's/early eighties when DJ's were considered "gay" and live bands ruled? Live bands always had the crowds and DJ's were basically driven to extinction or the occasional wedding reception. What happened? Karaoke never would have flown eiher, people would have pelted you with garbage if you got up and sang to a soundtrack. Times sure have changed....

Yep. I remember big time. I believe there are a few reasons why DJs weren't a factor back when you and I were covering brand new Zep: technology and union solidarity.

1st, good PA gear wasn't cheap at all. You could sink well over a grand into a 200 watt 8-channel Sunn PA system. This is back when I couldn't afford to pay $450 for a 1965 Mustang with 50,000 miles on it. Also, a DJ had to either have a sophisticated tape system or a dual turntable system to bring up single songs on the fly. Vinyl wasn't cheap either. Live DJs were pretty much limited to radio personalities with the resources of the radio station at their disposal.

With the technology of the day, DJing was not a good business proposition.

Now, you can run out and spend $500 for a cheap PA, pirate all the music you need from the internet and punch in requests to a laptop to generate an automatic playlist. That brings about a pretty nice return on investment.

Union solidarity? Well, let's just say that I heard my Grandpap and some other oldtimers sharing old stories describing the persuasive effect of the threat of a mic stand upside the head....

[Ron]

Because its a total lack of education in our society. Young adults/teens rather listen to 50 cent talk about getting his dick wet rather then good rock music. Everythings about image these days when it comes to the music scene. Bands and Artists have the hair, tattoos, money, and fame, but still dont have much talent compared to bands of the past. Its just a money making machine and our society puts up with it by further feeding the problem. Up in state college the DJs are treated like gold and they get crowds 400+ thurs-sat. Never knew it took talent to change from kayne to 2 pac, but hey i must be missing something here.....

I can see where you are coming from, but it isn't lack of education, it's the changing of society. I'm sure that the big band generation were saying the same thing about Elvis and Buddy Holly. Think about it. Just four guys vs. twenty guys, no horns, multi-track recording, masses of girls going crazy, blue jeans... God forbid.